Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

[Brother Mike]

The sacrifice of the cross eliminated attribution of sins toward mankind. That of course is another area of great debate. Limited vs. unlimited is too simplistic of a notion. 2 Cor. 5:19 says that sins will not be counted against men. That doesn't mean they don't exist or won't be attributed to the devil and his messengers for example. So for me I am in the limited atonement camp. The atonement was entirely insufficient in any way toward the devil and is sufficient in every way toward mankind.

There obviously was no elimination of sin at the cross. It's only a question of attribution.



That was never my observation to begin with Mike. Evil thoughts are both evil and defiling. You are welcome to call that NOT sin. I can't honestly say it's not sin because evil thoughts are evil and defiling.

You on the other hand prefer for some reason to only look at the external actions. If you think that because you are not in the continual act of external sinning actions that makes a murderer not a murderer unless he is continually murdering and the times when not, a sinless person, what can I really say to that kind of view? To me that won't compute.

And I doubt it would work with too many believers other than those who perhaps like to let themselves off the hook for the obvious fact of 'being' a sinner.

We've had enough back and forth to delineate our differences in sights. You are obviously welcome to think sinners are only sinners when they commit the actions of sin and the rest of the time they are sinless. I just won't be finding that credible to the scriptural testimonies on the subject matter.

We are looking at the scripture different for sure. I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, I am not some poor sinner saved by grace. I am righteous minded, not sin conscience. Knowing that sin can come up and the flesh get out of line is something else I am aware of.

Whatever you believe, what does it change? Thinking We are sinners still, does that mean we be unfaithful and continue to sin?

Not being sinners, do we stop making the effort to stay out of sin and trouble?

There is teaching out there that believers the new spirit in man can not sin, so no matter what we do, we can't sin. That sounds far fetched also.

Thank you for reading and talking about this with me. I am not convinced it matters, beause we have to still serve God.

 

[gr8grace3]

All scriptures must line up, I don't know everything, but I do know, God is not thinking and saying one thing, when He knows it's something else. If we do what He says do, it ends up they way he said. He is not planing for us not to obey him, nor does he make planes or know things based on us not obeying him.

“For His eyes are upon the ways of a man, and He sees all his steps. There is no darkness or deep shadow where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.” (Job 34:21-22)

“Does He not see my ways and number all my steps?” (Job 31:4)

“Do you know about the layers of the thick clouds, the wonders of one perfect in knowledge” (Job 37:16)

He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them. Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. (Psalm 147:4-5)


In whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. (Colossians 2:3)

 

[gr8grace3]

“Do you know about the layers of the thick clouds, the wonders of one perfect in knowledge” (Job 37:16)

He is perfect in Knowledge. He never had to "learn" anything and He will never "learn" anything. He is perfect in knowledge.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well I don't reject that verse 1 John 3:20 but that verse needs to be read in context. That verse says that God know all things that are in our hearts.

Here is what the NASB says:

"in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things." It does not say what you said it says. It says that God is greater than our heart, AND that He knows all things. Very clear.

1. He is greater than our heart.
2. He knows all things.

It does not say that He knows all things "that are in our hearts".

 

[Brother Mike]

“For His eyes are upon the ways of a man, and He sees all his steps. There is no darkness or deep shadow where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.” (Job 34:21-22)

“Does He not see my ways and number all my steps?” (Job 31:4)

“Do you know about the layers of the thick clouds, the wonders of one perfect in knowledge” (Job 37:16)

He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them. Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. (Psalm 147:4-5)


In whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. (Colossians 2:3)

The question was not in his ability to know our steps, to know our heart, thoughts. Not questioning the perfect knowledge. None of those things say God for one example out of many examples knows the future, as in a fortune teller, but declares what things will be for those things He declares.

God for example does not tell Israel they are given the promise land, when at the time God knows full and well that none of them would make it. That would be lying.

Does not tell Adam to hedge the Garden, and multiply, knowing He is going to kick him out and Adam would have to die.

I can go on but God is not confused, or do things that are a waste of time, and says one thing when He knows another to be true. That would be lying.

That is the question, that I submit God knows the heart, and the heart can change.

Here is what the NASB says:

"in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things." It does not say what you said it says. It says that God is greater than our heart, AND that He knows all things. Very clear.

1. He is greater than our heart.
2. He knows all things.

It does not say that He knows all things "that are in our hearts".

1Jn 3:19-21 kjva 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Let me guess FreeGrace, you flunked English big time when it came to picking the main subject out of a paragraph. OR, just talking about bible things you forget all that you learned in school?

Which is it?

 

[Deborah13]

Here is what the NASB says:

"in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things." It does not say what you said it says. It says that God is greater than our heart, AND that He knows all things. Very clear.

1. He is greater than our heart.
2. He knows all things.

It does not say that He knows all things "that are in our hearts".

I read the verses before this one verse and after it to understand the context. So now I have checked my interpretation and I am not alone.
1 John 3:20 KJV
"For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
If our heart condemn us - If we be conscious that our love is feigned, we shall feel inwardly condemned in professing to have what we have not. And if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, for he knows every hypocritical winding and turning of the soul, he searches the heart, and tries the reins, and sees all the deceitfulness and desperate wickedness of the heart which we cannot see, and, if we could see them, could not comprehend them; and as he is the just Judge, he will condemn us more strictly and extensively than we can be by our own conscience."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/1_john/3.htm

 

[Brother Mike]

If I tell free grace to take all the money on the counter, I hope he does not empty my wallet and bank account saying Mike said to take all his money.

I am going to bail on this one. I need to start a new thread and stop being so lazy hijacking other threads. Those that want to continue talking to me about this can pm me. I might put something more together and post it, but out of respect, we should get back on topic. Blessings

 

[gr8grace3]

The question was not in his ability to know our steps, to know our heart, thoughts. Not questioning the perfect knowledge. None of those things say God for one example out of many examples knows the future, as in a fortune teller, but declares what things will be for those things He declares.

God for example does not tell Israel they are given the promise land, when at the time God knows full and well that none of them would make it. That would be lying.

Does not tell Adam to hedge the Garden, and multiply, knowing He is going to kick him out and Adam would have to die.

I can go on but God is not confused, or do things that are a waste of time, and says one thing when He knows another to be true. That would be lying.

That is the question, that I submit God knows the heart, and the heart can change.



1Jn 3:19-21 kjva 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Let me guess FreeGrace, you flunked English big time when it came to picking the main subject out of a paragraph. OR, just talking about bible things you forget all that you learned in school?

Which is it?

I would guess that you went off the deep end trying to prove a false doctrine false. I say that from a non-combative view.

It is you that makes God confused. He doesn't know or is "surprised" by our negative choices? The heart is deceitful and wicked and He knows what that heart will do, whether good or bad.

 

[FreeGrace]

God for example does not tell Israel they are given the promise land, when at the time God knows full and well that none of them would make it. That would be lying.

The children DID possess the land. Haven't you read Exodus yet? They were part of the exodus. And Joshua and Caleb did enter the land. So your statement is false.

Does not tell Adam to hedge the Garden, and multiply, knowing He is going to kick him out and Adam would have to die.

What do you mean, "does not tell Adam…". Yes, God did tell Adam to hedge and multiply. What is your point?

I can go on but God is not confused, or do things that are a waste of time, and says one thing when He knows another to be true. That would be lying.

I think the confusion is on your part. But given the experience you had, seems you've had a bad reaction to it.

That is the question, that I submit God knows the heart, and the heart can change.

I don't really see any question here, but yes, God knows the heart, because He knows all things (1 Jn 3:20) and He knows when the heart will change.

1Jn 3:19-21 kjva 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Let me guess FreeGrace, you flunked English big time when it came to picking the main subject out of a paragraph. OR, just talking about bible things you forget all that you learned in school?

Which is it?

Neither, of course. The verse is crystal clear; God is greater than our heart, and He knows all things. I think the English as well as the Greek is perfectly clear, yet it seems you are having trouble with the clarity here.

God is greater than our heart.

God knows all things.

Very simple. 'gnosis panta' means knows all things.

But to defend your view, you want "knows all" to refer just to the heart. But the sentence doesn't allow you that.

 

[FreeGrace]

If I tell free grace to take all the money on the counter, I hope he does not empty my wallet and bank account saying Mike said to take all his money.

No, I would not do that because I actually pay attention to words, unlike some others. If you had said "my money", then I sure would have taken all your money. But since the words were "on the counter", that's all the money I would take.

The words "knows all" refers way beyond just the heart. Because John first noted that God is GREATER than the heart. That is the context for what "all" means or refers to. Because He is greater than the heart, He knows MORE than just the heart. Duh.

 

[FreeGrace]

I read the verses before this one verse and after it to understand the context. So now I have checked my interpretation and I am not alone.

Right, you are in the company of Bro Mike and Adam Clarke. And so?

1 John 3:20 KJV
"For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
If our heart condemn us - If we be conscious that our love is feigned, we shall feel inwardly condemned in professing to have what we have not. And if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, for he knows every hypocritical winding and turning of the soul, he searches the heart, and tries the reins, and sees all the deceitfulness and desperate wickedness of the heart which we cannot see, and, if we could see them, could not comprehend them; and as he is the just Judge, he will condemn us more strictly and extensively than we can be by our own conscience."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/1_john/3.htm

The fact that John first notes that God is greater than the heart means His context is greater than the heart. And then he said that God knows all things. Way beyond just the heart.

Let's not do with 1 Jn 3:20 what Calvinists have done with Heb 2:9, by forcing a limitation on "all" to the "many sons" in v.10. So let's not try to force "knows all" to a limitation of just the heart. Unless you really believe that's all God knows.

Here's the conundrum created by Bro Mike. He denies that God knows everything, yet he admits that God knows the heart. Well, if God knows the heart of man, He knows all that man will do from his heart. So He knows what Bro Mike claims He does not know. Bro Mike is very confused.

But if you read about his experience, it is easy to see that he felt "burned" by God, who, in his own words, caused him grief and trouble and things "didn't work out" for him.

Can't be the plan of God I take a few year sacrifice that cost lots of money, to only have it end up the way it did. Can't be. Did not God know ahead of time, and could have saved me the grief and trouble?

His view of his experience demonstrates a lot of self centeredness. It's all about him. How dare God inconvenience him, stuff like that.

So his view of God and omniscience is warped by his poor reaction to an experience. So he uses his experience to understand who God is. That's not the way to understand Scripture.

 

[Gregg]

God tells Abraham, "NOW I KNOW" you will not hold anything back from me. God knew by Abraham's actions.

and Abraham named that place 'the LORD will see' (Gen 22:14 a). The LORD saw with His eyes, so He had experiential knowledge (Gen 22:12). But the LORD also had foreknowledge, as Abraham then said, "In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen" (Gen 22:14 b). The scenario regarding Abraham and Isaac spoke of the Father's future sacrifice of His Son, the ram with his head caught in the thicket being a type of Jesus wearing a crown of thorns; and that mountain being what would become known as Jerusalem, the threshing floor of Ornan, the Temple mount, and place where Jesus was tried and sentenced to die on the cross.

Abraham knew of God's experiential knowledge and of His foreknowledge; and God gave of His foreknowledge to Abraham, "Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced" (John 8:56 LITV). More importantly, the Crucifixion of Christ was known to God before heaven and earth existed (Mic 5:2, Eph 1:4, 2Tim 1:9-10, Titus 1:2-3, 1Pet 1:20).

But Immanuel would also acquire experiential knowledge - to experience His suffering, crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension. Now, our God and Savior Jesus Christ knows these things by experience; and because of that we can have eternal life in Him, and know the Father because of Him. ". . . but He takes hold of the seed of Abraham. For this reason He ought by all means to become like His brothers, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things respecting God, in order to make propitiation for the sins of His people. For in what He has suffered, being tried, He is able to help those having been tried" (Heb 2:16-18 LITV; see Heb 4:15-16, Heb 5:7-9).

The point is that God has all knowledge of all things, but you can only have experiential knowledge of life; that is outside of God granting revelation. I pray that the LORD will give to you a full knowledge of His will, and a spirit of revelation in your knowledge of Him.

 

[Gregg]

and I might add, Mike, "He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul; He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify for many, and He shall bear their iniquities" (Isa 53:11). If you have been called by Him and love Him, the LORD will work all things together for your good (see Rom 8:27-30, also Philippians 3:8-10).

You ask in the OP, 'Which sin does not send a person to hell?' The sin that has been forgiven will not send a person to hell. "What then shall we say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Truly He who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up for us all, how will He not freely give us all things with Him? Who will bring any charge against God's elect? God is the One justifying!" (Rom 8:31-33).

I would also say that God had a foreknowledge of all (y)our sins, as Jesus Christ took them upon Himself; "who Himself bore in His body our sins onto the tree; that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; of whom, by His wound, you were healed" (1Pet 2:24).

 

[Brother Mike]

and I might add, Mike, "He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul; He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify for many, and He shall bear their iniquities" (Isa 53:11). If you have been called by Him and love Him, the LORD will work all things together for your good (see Rom 8:27-30, also Philippians 3:8-10).

You ask in the OP, 'Which sin does not send a person to hell?' The sin that has been forgiven will not send a person to hell. "What then shall we say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Truly He who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up for us all, how will He not freely give us all things with Him? Who will bring any charge against God's elect? God is the One justifying!" (Rom 8:31-33).

I would also say that God had a foreknowledge of all (y)our sins, as Jesus Christ took them upon Himself; "who Himself bore in His body our sins onto the tree; that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; of whom, by His wound, you were healed" (1Pet 2:24).

Good stuff Greg. Thank you.

This needs it's own thread. There is a whole lot to this. Time for example. If time is now and not already been played out, then how would God know. In other words time travel is not possible because things have yet to occur in the future. Science debates this.
Abraham knew Isaac was coming back, he believed God would raise him from the dead.

We need another thread. There is something important about faithfulness and God's foreknowledge we need to see.