Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

[Brother Mike]

This is your post in response to the Jeremiah scriptures.
KJV
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Now let's look at it when translated directly from the Hebrew....
Young's Literal Translation
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

So point of my post was that I agree with you that God does not cause all things to happen. He does not command or even ordains all things that happen. He said it never even came into His mind (heart) to tell them to do this horrible abomination. I just hear God declaring that He had nothing to do with what they did.

But this in no way means that God did not know that they would do it.

Sovereignty is another issue. Some how the definition of sovereignty seems to have changed.
Sovereignty is authority to rule. God has all authority to do anything that He wants to do.
I think the best example of someone in the Bible understanding the authority of Christ is the centurion. Because of his position in the Roman army he understood what it meant to have authority over his men. He understood that Jesus had authority over all things and only had to command something and whatever He commanded would happen.

Does not mean God knew they would do those things either. Why are we so wanting for God to know everything. They came to Jesus saying Lord, Lord we have done works in your name and He said I don't even know you, let alone know what you have been doing.

What scripture makes us think God is actually keeping track of anyone? Zero scriptures.

Now I have to ask myself, despite what I do and choose, God know how my life ends up?
Zero scripture says he does, we do have lots of scripture though as Jesus said who is faithful in little more is given. Jesus said about the tree they were going to chop down because it did not produce fruit to dung the tree, give it a chance and if it does not produce fruit cut it down. Why did not Jesus just say I already know the tree is going to make it or not make it?

As for God being in charge? Who did God give the planet to?

Who is god of this world?

Is God giving something to someone but taking it away and controlling it. God like that?

Just questions.

 

[Brother Mike]

Unlikely. Being God in flesh, sinless, has it's benefits.



Cited previously from the Gospels that evil thoughts are both evil and defiling.



Being without sin in the case of Jesus is perhaps not the identical situation as it pertains to temptation of sinners.

I doubt very much that Jesus was internally defiled by evil thoughts for example, particularly since we have no example of that in the scriptures.


There was and is no such person other than God Himself while in the flesh.



My main point in all matters of sin is that all sin originates in thought form and as such it remains unseen while in that realm, even while being active and present in that realm.

To judge matters of sin only on the external sights of same remains worthless.


It has nothing to do with nature. We are all planted in weakness, corruption and dishonor with evil present and indwelling sin in our flesh. There is no avoiding the conclusions of being sinners even temporarily.

I guess we are looking at the Word sinner differently. To me one has to commit the sin.

You said God came down in the flesh, but God can't be tempted, Jesus was tempted, but without sin. What God are you refering to? Or you believe in Oneness.

 

[Gregg]

What would be your definition of Sovereign. Jesus prayed, they will be done on earth as it it is in Heaven. Pretty good indication that not everything going on in earth is lined up with how God runs things in Heaven. The heavens belong to the Lord, the Earth he gave to man. So if man is in charge down here, the there are lots of things going on that God does not approve or even consider.

Over my will? My will is put subject to his plan (Will) I have my own will.

If we did not have our own will, and God was "Sovereign" over our wills as in charge of them, then we would not ever need to repernt and we would never make mistakes.

What do you conisder Sovereign, and why use a non bible term?

Believe it or not, God's vocabulary is not limited to the vocabulary of the Scriptures. You and I and God all know what 'sovereignty' is.

God has given us a will that we might chose life over disobedience, to act upon His calling and gift of faith, to subject our will to His, to respond to His love and grace by believing in Him. But we also have His help in doing and obtaining all these things.

The sovereignty of the LORD would include His being everywhere present, His omniscience, that He is all-powerful, and that all things are subject to Him whether in heaven or on earth or outside of creation; that including every creature and the will of man. Scripture clearly communicates that the LORD is all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present; that God is sovereign in every way; that our eternal God exists outside of the cosmos.

When Adam fell out of love with the LORD, he also began to lose sight of God's sovereignty, perfect will, loving-kindness, and spiritual provision; he began to consider other means for spiritual sustenance. Adam began to believe that the LORD was something other than the what the LORD Himself told Adam. His choice to disobey the LORD in the garden expressed the ultimate denial of God's sovereignty and love.

Your portrayal of the LORD is less than who He says He is. Do you not know that we are clay in the LORD's hand?

 

[Deborah13]

Does not mean God knew they would do those things either.

Nope, those Jeremiah scriptures do not say that God knows everything. They say God doesn't command, ordain, or will everything to happen.

Why are we so wanting for God to know everything. They came to Jesus saying Lord, Lord we have done works in your name and He said I don't even know you, let alone know what you have been doing.

Not quite. He said they will be workers of iniquity...He doing they were doing that, right.
Mat 7:23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that--I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

What scripture makes us think is actually keeping track of anyone? Zero scriptures.

Now I have to ask myself, despite what I do and choose, God know how my life ends up?
Zero scripture says he does, we do have lots of scripture though as Jesus said who is faithful in little more is given. Jesus said about the tree they were going to chop down because it did not produce fruit to dung the tree, give it a chance and if it does not produce fruit cut it down. Why did not Jesus just say I already know the tree is going to make it or not make it?

Because He would be leaving and they needed to know what they should do when confronted with this problem. They don't have foreknowledge, just as we don't. We need the lessons, too.

As for God being in charge? Who did God give the planet to?

Who is god of this world?

Is God giving something to someone but taking it away and controlling it. God like that?

Just questions.

Not sure exactly what you are pointing to in any of these questions. What do you think the answers are? Then I'll tell you if I agree or not. 2

 

[FreeGrace]

Does not mean God knew they would do those things either.

Yeah, it does.

Why are we so wanting for God to know everything.

Because the Bible says that He does. I gave you 2 verses on God's omniscience. Here they are again:

1 Jn 3:20 - in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things NASB
Psa 147:5 - Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. NASB

There is just no way to dumb down these verses to explain them away. They aren't going away. They refute your erroneous view of God and His omniscience.

What scripture makes us think God is actually keeping track of anyone? Zero scriptures.

Wow. Really?? What about this verse?
2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. NASB

How can one be recompensed by God if God isn't "keeping track"?

Now I have to ask myself, despite what I do and choose, God know how my life ends up?

The Bible says He knows all things, and His understanding is infinite, so yes, He does know how your life will end up.

Zero scripture says he does

You have been refuted by Scripture.

As for God being in charge? Who did God give the planet to?

Sovereign God, who HAS the authority to do that. ;)

Who is god of this world?

Satan

Is God giving something to someone but taking it away and controlling it. God like that?

Just questions.

Kinda strange ones, imho.

 

[smaller]

I guess we are looking at the Word sinner differently. To me one has to commit the sin.

You said God came down in the flesh, but God can't be tempted, Jesus was tempted, but without sin. What God are you refering to? Or you believe in Oneness.

Jesus was pretty clear that the thought of sin is both evil and sin. As prior stated sin is a progression from evil thought to evil word and culminating in evil deed, completing the cycle of slaveship.

No one is temporarily sinless nor is that ever presented in the scriptures. No one is sinless while not committing the acts of sin.

 

[smaller]

Hey smaller, good to see you.
I would say that being considered by God to be a sinner or a saint has to do with one's position in Christ. It is not our righteousness that keeps us in this position of grace, but the righteousness of the one our faith is in, the Christ.

I would agree that what is seen on the outside has very little to do with sin or righteousness if what is on the inside reeks of sin.

Hi Deb. Yeah, we see close enough on most subjects from what I can tell. Seeing in part does have it's detriments for all of us donut? ;)

 

[Brother Mike]

Nope, those Jeremiah scriptures do not say that God knows everything. They say God doesn't command, ordain, or will everything to happen.

Not quite. He said they will be workers of iniquity...He doing they were doing that, right.
Mat 7:23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that--I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

Because He would be leaving and they needed to know what they should do when confronted with this problem. They don't have foreknowledge, just as we don't. We need the lessons, too.


Not sure exactly what you are pointing to in any of these questions. What do you think the answers are? Then I'll tell you if I agree or not. 2

Deborah, what I am asking you as someone that has spoken about many things with you for a long time now. Is Why does God have to have foreknowledge Of every single thing? what makes you want to believe that? We both agree He does not plan for people to sin and fail. We both agree on that.

I'll share this with you, without the 30 scriptures to prove my point, but a personal thing. I have tons of scriptures to prove God does not operate on foreknowledge with man. He operates on the current condition of the heart, and has no clue what the man is going to end up choosing. We see that in Hezekiah when God had to judge him for not keeping his house in order, from God's perspective it looked as if Hezekiah had no intention of changing anything. When Hezekiah got the news, His heart changed. Because of that God gave him another 15 years.

If man will receive the correction and the heart changes, then man does well.

Now I would not have looked into this unless the Lord first spoke to me. I use to believe God just knew everything and how everything was going to turn out.

Until I had a few cases where I knew I heard God to help someone, went through the trouble of helping them, but they picked the wrong thing in the end. One case a little boy died whom I had helped the mom greatly, even having her live with me.
Why all that sacrifice, work and effort for it to end badly, when it was going so awesome? Can't be the plan of God I take a few year sacrifice that cost lots of money, to only have it end up the way it did. Can't be. Did not God know ahead of time, and could have saved me the grief and trouble?

So, I just don't accept things, I need to know. Why the failure? How not to repeat that failure. What did I do wrong, and if I did wrong, why the Lord not show me, so it ended up good when He told me to help?

Most folks here, just pass off grief and failure as the Lords Mysterious will. Not good enough for me, God is my father and I want answers. Jesus promised me He would show me the Father plainly and bless God that is what is going to happen. If the Word says it, then it better be or else I need to change something. In this case I needed understanding.

What the Lord told me. "You did obey me, you did fine, How am I to know what she would have chosen, had I not warned her? Had I not sent help? Did I not give her a place to live, and bring her children back? I created man to be like me and fellowship with me on my level. Go through my word and I'll show you what I know, and how I know. Can I not tell you the number of stars? How many grains of sand there are? the number of sparrows left on earth? Do I not know mans heart perfectly, and know what choices they will make? Howbeit though for my sake the heart can change, I have given man ability to believe, to understand, is that not enough? I don't have, and do not need foreknowledge of mans future actions. Is there anything I can't change on a split second? Any mountain high enough that I can't bring down with but a word? If I tell one to give you money and they do it not, am I not strong enough to still get the money to you? Where am I limited that my plan for you won't come to pass, and how is my arm to short to save though nobody responds?"

So, I started to study things out. Scriptures started to pop up to me, things I have read over and over. Paul said How do you know, that you will save your spouse? I use to tell people God can fix any marriage if you just believe, but that contradicted what Paul said. A persons heart needs to change to fix the marriage.

God tells Abraham, "NOW I KNOW" you will not hold anything back from me. God knew by Abraham's actions. I started to understand God only thinks the best and wants the best for every person. Crucified His son for us. Jer 29:11........ There are no thoughts of man not making it, but thoughts of man obeying him and doing right.

You don't need foreknowledge when at a seconds notice you have ability to move planets out of the way. What you said happens, your word can't be changed, how each man responds is up to the man. Someone with that ability, knowing ahead of time that a person would be lost and not use that ability despite what they knew is at fault. God is never at fault for anything.

There is a path, a plan God has predestined for us. We stay on that path, then everything God said and planed comes to pass. Jesus found his donkey because he was exactly where He was suppose to be. A donkey spoken about years ahead of time. Jesus stayed exactly on the path and will of God, and everything spoken came to pass.

Blessings, I just wanted to share that with you, and explain why I know what I know. I understand now why it's so important to obey God, because He only has what you have done in the past, to be worthy of the next things.

 

[Brother Mike]

Jesus was pretty clear that the thought of sin is both evil and sin. As prior stated sin is a progression from evil thought to evil word and culminating in evil deed, completing the cycle of slaveship.

No one is temporarily sinless nor is that ever presented in the scriptures. No one is sinless while not committing the acts of sin.

If we are not sinless, then what did the blood wash away? I know you don't mean it that way, but I say once more. Having the pull and ability to sin, does not make us sinners. I don't think of things to sin about, I normally think of the plan of God, pray in tongues, and try to do right.

This morning I blew it though. I got up and ran into my wife's clothes hanger thingy. It had wheels and was like a cheap version of a cloths rack you find at walmart. I destroyed it. Instead of saying sorry, I got mad that she put it in my way, and should not keep cheap breakable junk around anyway. I thought I was right at the time.

The Lord had to deal with me, and show me. I should have said sorry, and talked about finding a better one. I blew it.

 

[Brother Mike]

Yeah, it does.


Because the Bible says that He does. I gave you 2 verses on God's omniscience. Here they are again:

1 Jn 3:20 - in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things NASB
Psa 147:5 - Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. NASB

There is just no way to dumb down these verses to explain them away. They aren't going away. They refute your erroneous view of God and His omniscience.


Wow. Really?? What about this verse?
2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. NASB

How can one be recompensed by God if God isn't "keeping track"?


The Bible says He knows all things, and His understanding is infinite, so yes, He does know how your life will end up.


You have been refuted by Scripture.


Sovereign God, who HAS the authority to do that. ;)


Satan


Kinda strange ones, imho.

Freegrace, I can post a bunch of scriptures, ask you question you can't answer and make you look silly. I have refrained from that. You don't see it, don't want to see it, don't want to try to understand. Nothing to be done for you. When someone brings things to my attention that sounds like something I don't believe, then I want to hear it and see their point. I don't know everything, and will always change. You, need to do the same things.

 

[Brother Mike]

Believe it or not, God's vocabulary is not limited to the vocabulary of the Scriptures. You and I and God all know what 'sovereignty' is.

God has given us a will that we might chose life over disobedience, to act upon His calling and gift of faith, to subject our will to His, to respond to His love and grace by believing in Him. But we also have His help in doing and obtaining all these things.

The sovereignty of the LORD would include His being everywhere present, His omniscience, that He is all-powerful, and that all things are subject to Him whether in heaven or on earth or outside of creation; that including every creature and the will of man. Scripture clearly communicates that the LORD is all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present; that God is sovereign in every way; that our eternal God exists outside of the cosmos.

When Adam fell out of love with the LORD, he also began to lose sight of God's sovereignty, perfect will, loving-kindness, and spiritual provision; he began to consider other means for spiritual sustenance. Adam began to believe that the LORD was something other than the what the LORD Himself told Adam. His choice to disobey the LORD in the garden expressed the ultimate denial of God's sovereignty and love.

Your portrayal of the LORD is less than who He says He is. Do you not know that we are clay in the LORD's hand?

I agree with all that Greg. I don't have a bible here, on my sons computer. I don't portray the Lord as less though, I am just showing you how he operates, what he knows, and how He knows it. You blamed Adam for the failure, but If God knew anyway, and put Adam in the Garden, then God gets the blame. I contend that God is never to blame, and had no idea or plan for Adam to blow it.

God was also not present everywhere, has never been. We make that stuff up. This thing that God is outside of time, outside of the cosmos, and God knows all future is also made up, and not found in scriptures, and counters many examples in many scriptures. When I get access to a bible, I will show you what God knew in the OT, How that is different and why for believers in the NT. I will show you what God heard in the OT, what got his attention, and How he knows what he knows.

So we may be clay, a vessel, but God does not make junk pottery, and there are some vessels to honor and dishonor in a great house. If we be a vessel to dishonor, Paul told us to purge ourselves so that we be a vessel to honor. It's not all up to God.
Every plan God has made for every single man is a great plan, full of good fruit and victory. It's man that messes it up, not God, not God's plan.

I'll get back with those scriptures.

Blessings.

 

[FreeGrace]

There's just too much here to not comment on...

Deborah, what I am asking you as someone that has spoken about many things with you for a long time now. Is Why does God have to have foreknowledge Of every single thing? what makes you want to believe that?

I'd say 1 Jn 3:20 is the only reason. The Bible tells us that God knows all.

We both agree He does not plan for people to sin and fail. We both agree on that.

To be correct, He knows that people will sin and fail.

I'll share this with you, without the 30 scriptures to prove my point, but a personal thing. I have tons of scriptures to prove God does not operate on foreknowledge with man.

No, you don't. What you have are verses that speak of God in terms of how humans function. Scholars call that an anthropopathism; ascribing to God an action or feeling that man has in order to explain His policy towards man.

12 Jn 3:20 is a lie if you really did have ANY verses that God is not omniscient.

He operates on the current condition of the heart, and has no clue what the man is going to end up choosing.

The first part is true; the second part is false. Yes, He does deal with man on man's current condition. But your silly claim that He has "no clue" is blasphemous regarding His character and attributes, since Scripture DOES say that God knows all.

We see that in Hezekiah when God had to judge him for not keeping his house in order, from God's perspective it looked as if Hezekiah had no intention of changing anything. When Hezekiah got the news, His heart changed. Because of that God gave him another 15 years.

It was conditional. Because he repented, God granted him more years.

If man will receive the correction and the heart changes, then man does well.

Because God keeps His word. And His promises are based on conditions. Such as Isa 1:18-20. Blessings for obedience and judgment for disobedience.

Now I would not have looked into this unless the Lord first spoke to me. I use to believe God just knew everything and how everything was going to turn out.

Scripture SAYS that God knows all. Why do you keep rejecting this truth?

Until I had a few cases where I knew I heard God to help someone, went through the trouble of helping them, but they picked the wrong thing in the end. One case a little boy died whom I had helped the mom greatly, even having her live with me.

So what? What does this prove? That God didn't know what would happen? Your examples are pretty weak. More likely, you just missed the lesson that God wanted you to learn. Knowing that you would miss it altogether.

Why all that sacrifice, work and effort for it to end badly, when it was going so awesome?

Who are you to claim it "ended badly"? How do you know what God's plan entailed with the mother?

Can't be the plan of God I take a few year sacrifice that cost lots of money, to only have it end up the way it did. Can't be.

You say it "can't". So what? You have NO IDEA what God's plan is. You're just trying to read His mind, and you've come to the wrong conclusion. Ever thought about patience? Endurance? Seems fairly clear to me that there were a number of lessons in all this that you have completely missed. But He did give you the opportunity to learn. And you chose to not learn.

Did not God know ahead of time, and could have saved me the grief and trouble?

As I thought; it is all about you, huh. So sorry God put you through all the "hassle". Sheesh. It is obvious that God wasn't interested in saving you from anything. Why do you think you should be above all that "grief and trouble" anyway?

So, I just don't accept things, I need to know. Why the failure?

Lessons to learn.

How not to repeat that failure.

Pay attention to what God is trying to get you to learn.

What did I do wrong, and if I did wrong, why the Lord not show me, so it ended up good when He told me to help?

Who said He didn't show you? That's only your opinion; which is clouded by your admitted self centered view of things.

Most folks here, just pass off grief and failure as the Lords Mysterious will.

Maybe it's mysterious to you, but not to millions of believers. It's all part of life. And we are to learn from our experiences, not come to the place where we reject truth just because the "grief and trouble" just ain't all that fun. As you seem to have done.

Not good enough for me, God is my father and I want answers.

Yes, it just continues to be all about you, huh. Why don't you demand some answers from your Father. How do you think that will turn out?

What I see in your posts is that truth isn't "good enough" for you.

Jesus promised me He would show me the Father plainly and bless God that is what is going to happen. If the Word says it, then it better be or else I need to change something. In this case I needed understanding.

You needed to learn the lessons God gave you. Unfortunately, you made wrong conclusions.

What the Lord told me. "You did obey me, you did fine, How am I to know what she would have chosen, had I not warned her? Had I not sent help? Did I not give her a place to live, and bring her children back? I created man to be like me and fellowship with me on my level. Go through my word and I'll show you what I know, and how I know. Can I not tell you the number of stars? How many grains of sand there are? the number of sparrows left on earth? Do I not know mans heart perfectly, and know what choices they will make? Howbeit though for my sake the heart can change, I have given man ability to believe, to understand, is that not enough? I don't have, and do not need foreknowledge of mans future actions. Is there anything I can't change on a split second? Any mountain high enough that I can't bring down with but a word? If I tell one to give you money and they do it not, am I not strong enough to still get the money to you? Where am I limited that my plan for you won't come to pass, and how is my arm to short to save though nobody responds?"

So, He spoke to you audibly?

So, I started to study things out. Scriptures started to pop up to me, things I have read over and over. Paul said How do you know, that you will save your spouse? I use to tell people God can fix any marriage if you just believe, but that contradicted what Paul said.

A lot of what you post contradicts Scripture.

A persons heart needs to change to fix the marriage.

Yep. The Bible says so.

God tells Abraham, "NOW I KNOW" you will not hold anything back from me. God knew by Abraham's actions.

This is one of your so-called proof texts that you simply misunderstand. If God didn't know until Abraham acted, then 1 Jn 3:20 is a LIE. I reject that any verse is a lie.

You don't need foreknowledge when at a seconds notice you have ability to move planets out of the way.

It isn't a matter of "needing" foreknowledge. It's a matter of God being omniscient. He is whether you agree or not.

There is a path, a plan God has predestined for us. We stay on that path, then everything God said and planed comes to pass. Jesus found his donkey because he was exactly where He was suppose to be.

He was omniscient; therefore He knew where the donkey would be.

 

[FreeGrace]

Freegrace, I can post a bunch of scriptures, ask you question you can't answer and make you look silly. I have refrained from that.

I've already addressed your so-called proof texts. They are anthropopathisms. And 1 Jn 3:20 refutes your view. I've noticed that you have avoided that verse, which directly and clearly refutes your view.

\ You don't see it, don't want to see it, don't want to try to understand.

What I see is truth in the Bible, which I see that you have rejected in your post to Deb. You've reacted to some experience in the past and it seems you're a bit bitter or resentful about it. So instead of learning what God wanted you to learn, you reacted instead, and fell off the deep end into false doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace]

God was also not present everywhere, has never been.

Wowsers! Another attribue of God rejected!! I suppose the next thing will be an attack on His omnipotence, huh.

We make that stuff up.

You certainly have.

This thing that God is outside of time, outside of the cosmos, and God knows all future is also made up, and not found in scriptures, and counters many examples in many scriptures.

As I have pointed out repeatedly, 1 Jn 3:20 refutes your claims. God knows all things.

 

[Gregg]

I agree with all that Greg. I don't have a bible here, on my sons computer. I don't portray the Lord as less though, I am just showing you how he operates, what he knows, and how He knows it.

You are claiming to know what He knows, and how . . . but, you are a man. I'll trust in what the LORD has said about Himself, and how Jesus explained Him.

You blamed Adam for the failure, but If God knew anyway, and put Adam in the Garden, then God gets the blame. I contend that God is never to blame, and had no idea or plan for Adam to blow it.

You are mistaken to equate God's knowing something with God's blame for it.

God was also not present everywhere, has never been. We make that stuff up. This thing that God is outside of time, outside of the cosmos, and God knows all future is also made up, and not found in scriptures, and counters many examples in many scriptures.

Mike, what denomination or religious organization do you associate with?

 

[Brother Mike]

I know a bit how my Father Operates, because I have spent so much time in His word and speaking to him. I never said I know what He knows, I have not been alive long enough to even get a glimpes of what He knows. I do know how some things in the realm of the spirit work, and his laws he has set fourth.

Mistake to blame God for knowing something, and getting the blame

Just knowing something does not mean your at fault for something. I did not say that. God knowing I robbed a bank, does not make it his fault.
What I said, is that someone that has the ability to move planets around with a word, and put the spirit in a man that he may live. Knows that the man He made ahead of time will roast in Hell forever, yet creates the man anyway is not foreknowledge but hard core calivinsm. Knowing something will get messed up, but continue to on with the plan knowing it ends badly is our fault, and it's God's fault.

That is what I said, knowing something is a fancy term for election. There is no difference. God at any time can stop something, even destory every mountain with but a word. To know to do good, and do it not is sin. God said that. So God is either sinning by not using his planet creating abilility to stop man for destroying himself, or something else is at work.

Denomination:

I grew up Baptist.

Anyway, I am working on that thing to show you some of how it works. Everything Jesus said is true, and nothing in scripture contradicts. God's Word is perfect, and simple.

Well, Revelation is kinda rough, just saying.

Be blessed.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, what I am asking you as someone that has spoken about many things with you for a long time now. Is Why does God have to have foreknowledge Of every single thing? what makes you want to believe that? We both agree He does not plan for people to sin and fail. We both agree on that.

Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts and why you believe what you believe.
I don't know that God has to have foreknowledge but I believe scripture points toward God having foreknowledge of all things. Psalm 139, tells me He knows, even the words that I will write here on this forum because verse 4 says he knows the words that will come out of David's mouth. So are we different than David?
Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him three times. I don't believe God made Peter do that but He knew that he would.
Well to be honest sometimes I wish that God didn't know what I was thinking or doing. 2 Humble pie doesn't taste very good. But still it is comforting to know that He knows every thought and action. If He didn't He would not be so expert and keeping me, by correcting and guiding. I am thankful that He doesn't just listen to my words sometimes, especially in the past, but actually understands what is in my heart because I truly love Him even when my actions don't always show it.
Just think of how many fewer mistakes we would make raising our own children if we had this kind of knowledge about them. If we had foreknowledge of what they would do it could be painful sometimes but we could be prepared and know how to comfort them and pick them up, perfectly, when they fall. We would also be able to have things happen along the way that would teach them lessons so that when they look back they can learn from those lessons for future reference.

 

[smaller]

If we are not sinless, then what did the blood wash away?

The sacrifice of the cross eliminated attribution of sins toward mankind. That of course is another area of great debate. Limited vs. unlimited is too simplistic of a notion. 2 Cor. 5:19 says that sins will not be counted against men. That doesn't mean they don't exist or won't be attributed to the devil and his messengers for example. So for me I am in the limited atonement camp. The atonement was entirely insufficient in any way toward the devil and is sufficient in every way toward mankind.

There obviously was no elimination of sin at the cross. It's only a question of attribution.

I know you don't mean it that way, but I say once more. Having the pull and ability to sin, does not make us sinners. I don't think of things to sin about, I normally think of the plan of God, pray in tongues, and try to do right.

That was never my observation to begin with Mike. Evil thoughts are both evil and defiling. You are welcome to call that NOT sin. I can't honestly say it's not sin because evil thoughts are evil and defiling.

You on the other hand prefer for some reason to only look at the external actions. If you think that because you are not in the continual act of external sinning actions that makes a murderer not a murderer unless he is continually murdering and the times when not, a sinless person, what can I really say to that kind of view? To me that won't compute.

And I doubt it would work with too many believers other than those who perhaps like to let themselves off the hook for the obvious fact of 'being' a sinner.

We've had enough back and forth to delineate our differences in sights. You are obviously welcome to think sinners are only sinners when they commit the actions of sin and the rest of the time they are sinless. I just won't be finding that credible to the scriptural testimonies on the subject matter.

 

[Deborah13]

I've already addressed your so-called proof texts. They are anthropopathisms. And 1 Jn 3:20 refutes your view. I've noticed that you have avoided that verse, which directly and clearly refutes your view.


What I see is truth in the Bible, which I see that you have rejected in your post to Deb. You've reacted to some experience in the past and it seems you're a bit bitter or resentful about it. So instead of learning what God wanted you to learn, you reacted instead, and fell off the deep end into false doctrine.

Well I don't reject that verse 1 John 3:20 but that verse needs to be read in context. That verse says that God know all things that are in our hearts. He knows better than we do. So if our hearts do not condemn us of something and it should be, God is greater than our hearts (our own condemnation) and will show us what is there that shouldn't be.
So to me it is not saying that God knows all things about everything.
But as far as foreknowledge goes I think Psalm 139 verse 4, shows that God knows even what we will say before we say it. At least that is what David believed about God.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts and why you believe what you believe.
I don't know that God has to have foreknowledge but I believe scripture points toward God having foreknowledge of all things. Psalm 139, tells me He knows, even the words that I will write here on this forum because verse 4 says he knows the words that will come out of David's mouth. So are we different than David?
Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him three times. I don't believe God made Peter do that but He knew that he would.
Well to be honest sometimes I wish that God didn't know what I was thinking or doing. 2 Humble pie doesn't taste very good. But still it is comforting to know that He knows every thought and action. If He didn't He would not be so expert and keeping me, by correcting and guiding. I am thankful that He doesn't just listen to my words sometimes, especially in the past, but actually understands what is in my heart because I truly love Him even when my actions don't always show it.
Just think of how many fewer mistakes we would make raising our own children if we had this kind of knowledge about them. If we had foreknowledge of what they would do it could be painful sometimes but we could be prepared and know how to comfort them and pick them up, perfectly, when they fall. We would also be able to have things happen along the way that would teach them lessons so that when they look back they can learn from those lessons for future reference.

Psa 139:4 kjva For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

I did not say God does not know the heart, or what your about to say. John tells us He knows all things about the heart.

God does not look at actions, or us getting mad as a indication we are gone astray, He looks at the heart, knows we are just being temporarily stupid. Good thing to.

So, lets talk about God knowing the painful things our kids will do. More than once the Lord has had me not do something or do something to protect my kids. How does God know? How does the Holy Spirit show us things to come as scriptures say?

One the other hand, why does God have to go down and look to see if Sodom is sinning as bad as He is hearing in Heaven, that the cry matches the sin? He said I will go down and look, then I will know.

Why does God have to go down to look at Bable or all the other places He said he was going to check out?

Why does God tell Abraham, NOW I KNOW you will not hold anything back from me after Abraham put's Issacc on the sacrifice table?

Why does He not know those things, but Jesus tells them that not one will stand by him?

There has to be an operation of things that perfectly match all these cases. Understand the operation, then we understand more on How God operates.

Of course He knows what David is going to say, He knows exactly what we are thinking.

Jesus knew exactly what the enemy was trying to do, Knew the hearts of the folks He was with.

Is this divine fortune telling? Or Wisdom that passes our understanding?

One issue of God knowing something he said, is that everything He says comes to pass. That is not foreknowledge with someone that has everything they declare. Of course it's comming to pass.

Now way to seperate that, until you see examples of what is the deciding factor, and that factor is mans heart can change for good or bad.

God know your kids are going to be bad, or good? Scripture tells us youth can be foolish, so it's a given that they will do things that upset us. God has already determined that.

Marriage, God said all marriages will have problems in the flesh. Already determined.

God know I am going to mess something up before I do it?

Good question, If I listen to him and do it the way I am instructed, then it won't be messed up.

Jesus said you shall all leave me. What is the correct response to that? Not what Peter said for sure, Peter said I will never leave you Lord.

The correct response would have been, what can we do then Lord, to be stronger and make sure that does not happen. If you said it will happen, what can we do to change that?

Those responses change the outcome of things, as what God knows, does not have to be the outcome, good or bad.

All scriptures must line up, I don't know everything, but I do know, God is not thinking and saying one thing, when He knows it's something else. If we do what He says do, it ends up they way he said. He is not planing for us not to obey him, nor does he make planes or know things based on us not obeying him.