Is Suffering A Punishment For SIN(S)

[Wrg1405]

Never said that is the case.

What I did say is, it is impossible to see just Paul in 2 Cor. 12:7. Therefore there are two separate and distinct and conflicting workings of God in Christ with TWO entirely different parties, Paul and the messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul.

Sorry if you can't see the distinctions.

Sorry can't see it. All I can see is your response to the question "Can God be an enemy to the righteous" to which you replied yes.

So to me it's reading as God can be an enemy to the righteous.

Can you explain it to me as if I'm a five year old.

 

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Sorry can't see it. All I can see is your response to the question "Can God be an enemy to the righteous" to which you replied yes.

Is it conceivable that Paul received abundant Grace/Mercy through God in Christ and the other party abundant scorn and resistance, simultaneously, by God in Christ? Yes.

So to me it's reading as God can be an enemy to the righteous. Can you explain it to me as if I'm a five year old.

Two parties. Two different workings of God in Christ, simultaneously.

For and in behalf of Paul entirely and sufficiently for all of eternity.
And simultaneously against/contrary to the messenger of Satan in the flesh, in all it's works and all it's ways.

This is how God in Christ Sees and Operates. It's not a simple one sided equation.

 

[Wrg1405]

Two parties. Two different workings of God in Christ, simultaneously.

For and in behalf of Paul entirely and sufficiently for all of eternity.
And simultaneously against/contrary to the messenger of Satan in the flesh, in all it's works and all it's ways.

This is how God in Christ Sees and Operates. It's not a simple one sided equation.

An equation will have two sides. So we have balanced equations and unequal equations. Satan and God are not equal and don't balance each other out. So they are unequal. That being the case satan is not equal to God.

Therefore it is a simple one sided equation God is not our enemy and never will be, satan yes and always will be.

 

[smaller]

An equation will have two sides. So we have balanced equations and unequal equations. Satan and God are not equal and don't balance each other out. So they are unequal. That being the case satan is not equal to God.

Therefore it is a simple one sided equation God is not our enemy and never will be, satan yes and always will be.

It's entirely logical that God in Christ is and remains an enemy of sin indwelling our flesh, evil present with us, and is still our 'effective' Eternal Savior. Again, two separate and distinct operations, both transpiring simultaneously. This is not a difficult concept but it does require looking at both sides of the equation. One sided sight can not address these things.

We should understand that it is BENEFICIAL for us as believers for God in Christ to be against sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us which we DO HAVE, even though that Sight from Him is NOT beneficial to "our flesh" in which these facts are present.

And yes, God can and does deal quite adversely with those workings IN the flesh of believers.

Were it not so, God in Christ would be blessing and condoning (or even overlooking) sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us. This is a theological impossibility.

God does adversely judge and work against indwelling sin in our flesh and the evil present with us. The understanding that Paul brings to the table is that these workings in his own flesh were "no more I." Romans 7:17 & 20, twice identifying the distinction between himself and the condition of his flesh.

Paul did not see himself, a child of God, as these workings. But drew a FIRM LINE between himself and the workings in his own flesh. But those workings still did what THEY did regardless of what Paul wanted. Nevertheless he did not claim he didn't have these workings. Paul brings this matter to the table in vast segments of his inspired writings and draws these things out into the open, identifying for example that the Spirit is actively against and contrary to the flesh. Gal. 5:17. This can't be changed. The Spirit and the flesh are fixed, to be against and contrary to each others.

Is God in Christ against indwelling sin and evil present with us? Yes indeed He Is. Can God in Christ deal harshly with those workings in our flesh. Again, YES.

 

[Wrg1405]

It's entirely logical that God in Christ is and remains an enemy of sin indwelling our flesh, evil present with us, and is still our 'effective' Eternal Savior. Again, two separate and distinct operations, both transpiring simultaneously. This is not a difficult concept but it does require looking at both sides of the equation. One sided sight can not address these things.

We should understand that it is BENEFICIAL for us as believers for God in Christ to be against sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us which we DO HAVE, even though that Sight from Him is NOT beneficial to "our flesh" in which these facts are present.

And yes, God can and does deal quite adversely with those workings IN the flesh of believers.

Were it not so, God in Christ would be blessing and condoning (or even overlooking) sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us. This is a theological impossibility.

God does adversely judge and work against indwelling sin in our flesh and the evil present with us. The understanding that Paul brings to the table is that these workings in his own flesh were "no more I." Romans 7:17 & 20, twice identifying the distinction between himself and the condition of his flesh.

Paul did not see himself, a child of God, as these workings. But drew a FIRM LINE between himself and the workings in his own flesh. But those workings still did what THEY did regardless of what Paul wanted. Nevertheless he did not claim he didn't have these workings. Paul brings this matter to the table in vast segments of his inspired writings and draws these things out into the open, identifying for example that the Spirit is actively against and contrary to the flesh. Gal. 5:17. This can't be changed. The Spirit and the flesh are fixed, to be against and contrary to each others.

Is God in Christ against indwelling sin and evil present with us? Yes indeed He Is. Can God in Christ deal harshly with those workings in our flesh. Again, YES.

Ah, I think I get where your coming from. Are you saying that God is the enemy of the sin that resides us and not us as his children? If so I get that if not I'm still stumped.

 

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Ah, I think I get where your coming from. Are you saying that God is the enemy of the sin that resides us and not us as his children? If so I get that if not I'm still stumped.

Yeah, you got it.

 

[stovebolts]

Jobs friends thought so. Can God be a enemy to the RIGHTEOUS?

To quickly address the first part, yes, Job's friends thought so just as many Christians today believe that all suffering is a direct result of their sin. As such, God becomes a God of punishment and reward based on works and outward appearances. But this is not the case for Job and Elihu sets them straight. For Job, his suffering was to bring him into a right relationship with the God he worshiped and obeyed. Job was a fine man outwardly, and he had put God in a situation where it appeared that mercy was earned, as can be seen by his many sacrifices for his children. Job had wisdom and discernment, and he had all the rituals and rites perfect. But what he laced was a relationship with God. One can know of another, without actually knowing the other.
Job 42:5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.

As to your second question, I don't know that I fully understand it. We can see ourselves as an enemy toward God, but God is not an enemy back, for he desires all men to be saved 1 Timothy 2:4.
A righteous man, even one as great as Job believed God had become his enemy. But as we see, God was drawing him near. This is why Peter tells us to rejoice when being tried. 1 Timothy 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds,

easy to read, and even easier to say. but it's down right hard to do.

 

[smaller]

To quickly address the first part, yes, Job's friends thought so just as many Christians today believe that all suffering is a direct result of their sin. As such, God becomes a God of punishment and reward based on works and outward appearances. But this is not the case for Job and Elihu sets them straight. For Job, his suffering was to bring him into a right relationship with the God he worshiped and obeyed. Job was a fine man outwardly, and he had put God in a situation where it appeared that mercy was earned, as can be seen by his many sacrifices for his children. Job had wisdom and discernment, and he had all the rituals and rites perfect. But what he laced was a relationship with God. One can know of another, without actually knowing the other.
Job 42:5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.

As to your second question, I don't know that I fully understand it. We can see ourselves as an enemy toward God, but God is not an enemy back, for he desires all men to be saved 1 Timothy 2:4.
A righteous man, even one as great as Job believed God had become his enemy. But as we see, God was drawing him near. This is why Peter tells us to rejoice when being tried. 1 Timothy 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds,

easy to read, and even easier to say. but it's down right hard to do.

The reality of scriptures presents that God has bound the flesh of all mankind with the spirit of disobedience. Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2 as easy examples. Whether it's readily externally apparent or not, this is the condition of our flesh. It is not removed after salvation, as Paul shows us in Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 5:17 and 1 Tim. 1:15 for examples.

And God does maintain every right to deal adversely with that disobedient spirit in the flesh of any person, whether we care for it or not OR by thinking we bring that into obedience to avoid it, because that is NOT possible.

In this God proves His Sovereignty over all flesh. We have nothing to say about it and it wouldn't matter if we did. In the final analysis Job had a proper view of his own flesh.

Job 42:6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Abraham had the identical sight of himself. Gen. 18:27.

Jesus also advised us, thusly:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[stovebolts]

The reality of scriptures presents that God has bound the flesh of all mankind with the spirit of disobedience. Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2 as easy examples. Whether it's readily externally apparent or not, this is the condition of our flesh. It is not removed after salvation, as Paul shows us in Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 5:17 and 1 Tim. 1:15 for examples.

And God does maintain every right to deal adversely with that disobedient spirit in the flesh of any person, whether we care for it or not OR by thinking we bring that into obedience to avoid it, because that is NOT possible.

In this God proves His Sovereignty over all flesh. We have nothing to say about it and it wouldn't matter if we did. In the final analysis Job had a proper view of his own flesh.

Job 42:6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Abraham had the identical sight of himself. Gen. 18:27.

Jesus also advised us, thusly:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

While I understand, and even agree with your view, I would also add that God created humanity with the propensity toward the flesh.

And so the deeper questions need to be asked, and what we see between Job and his friends are the many views of the very nature of God and how he interacts with his creation.

To read the scriptures is not an exercise between knowing of good and evil, but rather is cause for understanding the intimate relationship that God desires for every one of us as we shift from knowing of, to true knowing and understanding. There is a difference.

I believe that for Job, the purpose of his suffering was not a punishment for his sins, and by sins I mean those committed outside of his awareness. It is also good to note that sins also encompass the good we should do, but fail to do so.

In Jobs case, it seems clear that God was drawing him near. But to do so required bringing him to a place where the God he thought he knew felt distant, and harsh. For once, Job had to rethink the God he knew of, and by doing so Job had an encounter with the living God himself.

We all need that encounter, and we see this in the scriptures. Paul had his encounter with God, and it changed his life.

Suffering isn't a punishment. It's a drawing near. Yes, even Jesus was perfected through suffering according to the scriptures. And so it seems that we also suffer with Christ, as we are drawn near to our Lord.

 

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While I understand, and even agree with your view, I would also add that God created humanity with the propensity toward the flesh.

Absolutely. As a temporal adverse state of the flesh, that we are eventually moved out of (in death for example), that we might come to know His Grace and Mercy in Christ Jesus. In other words we are placed into adverse subjective experiences precisely to come to know His Mercy and Grace, and this, not of ourselves.

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Eph. 2:2 shows this "disobedience" to be an adverse spirit that is not us, but IS the prince of the power of the air, the "spirit of disobedience." That would be Satan. See Mark 4 for the dialogs regarding "who" the power, the birds, the predators of the air are. It is Satan and his messengers.

It is THEM that we suffer under in the flesh which eventually, sooner or later, results in our death in the flesh as a reality.

And so the deeper questions need to be asked, and what we see between Job and his friends are the many views of the very nature of God and how he interacts with his creation.

God deals with two completely different parties "in man." The person and the god of this world. One God deals kindly with and the other, never kindly. Job just didn't know his own state in the flesh, thinking quite falsely that in his flesh, if he did this and that he could "appease" God and not have to deal with any adverse consequences from God in our fleshly state. But as we know well enough that turned out not to be the case. Satan did have a very certain amount of "dominion" over his flesh, given to Satan by God Himself. If we look even closer we can see that Satan is moved to resist God and does so in man's flesh. And this also can extend to "external circumstances" as well, seeing this adverse entity is the 'god of this world.' This is also why we do not love the world nor the things that are in it. 1 John 2:15.

This is a temporal adverse place for all of us. And yes, we all suffer, eventually, death in/of the flesh itself. Yet God does have better things in mind from this temporal adverse planting in the darkness of the earth, that is, our natural body. 1 Cor. 15:42-47.

To read the scriptures is not an exercise between knowing of good and evil, but rather is cause for understanding the intimate relationship that God desires for every one of us as we shift from knowing of, to true knowing and understanding. There is a difference.

I might submit that there is a two fold state of scriptural reality. God is for us in the Spirit, and simultaneously against us, in the flesh. Both friend and foe. God in Christ is not and never was the ally of sin dwelling in the flesh or evil present with us, but is in fact it's exposer and it's Dominant Enemy, capital E. Gal. 5:17. The Spirit however "uses" this adverse state for His Own Ends. To show and prove HIS DOMINION over ALL things.

I believe that for Job, the purpose of his suffering was not a punishment for his sins, and by sins I mean those committed outside of his awareness. It is also good to note that sins also encompass the good we should do, but fail to do so.

Whether Job realized it or not the state of his own flesh was no different than the reality that Paul shows us about his own flesh in Romans 7. Sin dwelt in Jobs flesh, evil WAS present with him, provably so. Job for example had to look away from women to keep from sinning in his mind. He knew what all of us men know. That our hearts does lean to looking lustfully upon women. And as hard as we might try not to do that it really is another working in the flesh that does this with or without our permissions. Paul identified this working of sin "no more I" that do it, but sin. In this he disassociated himself as a child of God FROM that working in his own flesh, which really IS the cause of a foreign adverse spiritual entity that was not Paul, but is of our adversary, the devil. 1 John 3:8. 2 Cor. 12:7.

In Jobs case, it seems clear that God was drawing him near. But to do so required bringing him to a place where the God he thought he knew felt distant, and harsh. For once, Job had to rethink the God he knew of, and by doing so Job had an encounter with the living God himself.

Paul was right in that God has mercy on whom He will. With Job, God always intended Mercy. But it was not then and is not now only a question of Job, alone. See previous.

And yes, God can elect at any time to treat any flesh adversely at His Sole Discretion.

He is both entirely eternally MERICFUL and completely UNmerciful,

simultaneously.

 

[stovebolts]

[quote = smaller]He is both entirely eternally MERICFUL and completely unmerciful [\quote]

From our fleshly view, I would agree.

Was death an unmerciful act when he imposed it upon Adam and all subsequence generations? Or was it a picture that gives us hope that the days of evil are numbered? Evil is not eternal, but we are. Evil does not conquer eternity.

As for Pharoh, we all will stand in judgment. For Pharoh, it came prior to his death. Yet we know God does not rejoice at the destruction of the wicked and after Meriem sung her song to Israel rejoicing in the death of Pharoh and his men, God brought them to the bitter waters of Marah. One can go a month without eating, but not without drinking. Thus, the victory was shown to be bitter sweet.

Was it then a merciful act of God to kill Pharoh? A man who's heart was hardened, and then again by God himself? A mere man who he himself thought of himself as a very God himself. Such a debased mind. I contend that it was a mercy killing for both Pharoh and for Israel.

 

[smaller]

He is both entirely eternally MERICFUL and completely unmerciful

From our fleshly view, I would agree.

Was death an unmerciful act when he imposed it upon Adam and all subsequence generations? Or was it a picture that gives us hope that the days of evil are numbered? Evil is not eternal, but we are. Evil does not conquer eternity.

Brilliant deduction. Evil is also Gods servant, a subservient temporal power that He created. God never had any long term plan for the flesh of man. He IS however interested in the 'last man, the last Adam,' Christ. It is there, in Him, that all of our eternal promises are and securely abide. But it has been purposefully hidden from us all. Who doesn't love a good mystery with a happy ending anyway? The hero gets killed and low and behold, not even death can win in the end. There is no better than that.

As for Pharoh, we all will stand in judgment. For Pharoh, it came prior to his death. Yet we know God does not rejoice at the destruction of the wicked and after Meriem sung her song to Israel rejoicing in the death of Pharoh and his men, God brought them to the bitter waters of Marah. One can go a month without eating, but not without drinking. Thus, the victory was shown to be bitter sweet.

That all depends on how one might see pharaoh. I don't see just a man. I see what God also put in the flesh of that man, per Ezekiel 29:3. God doesn't see just a flesh man, but the "dragon" "Satan" as the real pharaoh over creation in death and sin.

I heard it's a short gig in devil time. Rev. 12:12.

Not all is as it appears on the surface of the scriptures.

Was it then a merciful act of God to kill Pharoh?

Totally. I believe that man was released from the hold of the dragon and the spirit that God gave him returned to God (Eccl. 12:7). But of course this is not all that popular of a view. God pawned that flesh man to show us other matters. He was engaged in the role that God deemed for his flesh and all the other characters involved that can't be seen. Such is the way of all the drama's of life. There comes a time when the play is over and the curtains are drawn back. Eternal Life was always there, Directing.

A man who's heart was hardened, and then again by God himself? A mere man who he himself thought of himself as a very God himself. Such a debased mind. I contend that it was a mercy killing for both Pharoh and for Israel.

I see a much deeper aspect to judgments that we have a hard time perceiving. God was not dealing with some mere mortal flesh pile. The whole world, as we know it, has been under the domain of the 'god of this world' who is not some flesh guy but who does operate "in" the flesh of MAN. There are many examples of this unseen reality in the scriptures. Mark 4:15, Romans 7, whole chapter, Romans 9, whole chapter, Romans 11:8 in particular. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 among a myriad of others show us that we are dealing with an invisible adverse spiritual entity who has the "whole world" deceived, blinded, essentially "covered" by that "covering cherub." And at some point God Himself will put that power and his domain/dominion away, eternally. Ezek. 28:16. God could do it right now, as we speak, IF He wanted to. But obviously these things will run their Divine set courses.

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

What powers are being spoken of here?

These:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Yet none of these can be physically seen.

And we all know we can't quite put a finger on the matters. And instead are led to only surface views. Some few are treated to a look behind the curtains. And what they "really saw" and wrote of is hard for us to perceive because we haven't had the same look. We take their evidence and witnessing, as truth.

Isaiah 6:
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

We can only imagine. And then he walked naked, witnessing. Nobody knew a Word of what he was saying or trying to say. He was at that point connected to another world altogether.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

IF this is true, the just exactly who's kingdom is this world? Satan has a kingdom. A generation. A populace, with inhabitants. Nations. Yet we see none of this. But this is the reality of this world, beneath the flesh.

Matthew 12:26
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?