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Is Suffering Required for the Christian?

I do not believe that Paul is an example to us in approving suffering for Christians. He suffered what he dealt out to Christians, except maybe the shipwrecks (well he even mentions shipwrecks in speaking about the faith, so maybe?) My point is that I think the subject of suffering sounds noble and good so we assign it as a "good thing" for Christians. Paul says and here I am going to paraphrase, "we are appointed to death but our death is life to you (the ones he preached to)". Peter wrote that enduring tribulation produces good things, tribulation is a direct result of preaching the gospel in the apostles cases. Is tribulation the same as suffering? An abundant life does not necessarily include suffering (physical or mental anguish), you think? Christ_empowered has some strong things to say about suffering being redemptive and I am in hopes he (she?) will post here. The rest of you, what do you think?
 
I don't know if its desirable to suffer--I don't enjoy it--but I do think God deals out pain to Christians to help us grow. Actually, now that I think about it, it seems like God gives out suffering to people before they even become Christian, to bring them to Christ. I'm sure there are other reasons (sin, living in a Fallen World, etc.), but I do think both pre- and post-conversion, God allows suffering to fall on his children. The idea of a pain-free "abundant life" to me has more in common with psychology (if you think the right way and do the right things, you won't suffer) than with traditional Christianity.
 
I think C-E nailed it.

I still wonder about my last hospital stay - an awful time, to be sure. But it all led me to make what some of my friends call "a bold move".

I'd probably not have done it, certainly not so quickly (and probably at a time best described as "too late").

I don't knwo if suffering is "required" or "necessary" or "just part of the complex plan" - but it seems to be one of the three, at times.
 
It would not be right for us to not suffer. Jesus suffered on the cross, and if our Lord came to this earth to suffer, then we should have to go through suffering as well.

James 1:2-4

Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
 
Romans 5
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28034">1</sup> Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28035">2</sup> through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28036">3</sup> Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28037">4</sup> perseverance, character; and character, hope. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28038">5</sup> And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us."

Suffering for the sake of Christ is never a bad thing. It should be a privilege, even through most people in 2011 don't know what "suffering" is. There's still too much real persecution, but most Christians today don't know that either.
 
Suffering is an effective way for God to get our attention. We suffer in 2 ways...for our own good.....and sacrificially for God and for others. Paul exemplified the 2nd type.
 
I don't know if its desirable to suffer--I don't enjoy it--but I do think God deals out pain to Christians to help us grow. Actually, now that I think about it, it seems like God gives out suffering to people before they even become Christian, to bring them to Christ. I'm sure there are other reasons (sin, living in a Fallen World, etc.), but I do think both pre- and post-conversion, God allows suffering to fall on his children. The idea of a pain-free "abundant life" to me has more in common with psychology (if you think the right way and do the right things, you won't suffer) than with traditional Christianity.

Hi, empowered, Glad to see you are posting on this thread. You said some things I'd like to speak to directly: "God deals out pain to Christians to help us grow". Please enlarge on that, grow in which direction and into what? Do you think He hands it out or as you said in another sentence "allows suffering to fall"? I don't know about psychology being part of this but Jesus said He came to give us an abundant life. Certainly traditional Christianity has some real hiccups to me. One of them being exactly this subject. It is written that if we do better than give a stone for bread to our children won't God do far more for His? (my paraphrase)

I do think this subject involves a lot of "that's the way it is and always has been so it must be God's doing" baggage attached in the traditional church preaching. Please believe me when I state that I am in no way a "new-ager" or a "psychology" thinker. What I am is a Christian who is considering and in some cases reconsidering what I've heard for the last 38 years in various churches. I'm asking God for the Truth the Spirit is leading His children into at all times. I want no blinders, no veil, no hindrance in my thinking to keep me from the Truth. Having said that I can still appreciate the thoughts and opinions expressed by my brothers and sisters and give them serious consideration.
 
Suffering is an effective way for God to get our attention. We suffer in 2 ways...for our own good.....and sacrificially for God and for others. Paul exemplified the 2nd type.

Obviously true since it may drive us to our knees, but might also turn us away from Him. You think that God produced the suffering in those who will turn away? And let's not forget that it was the accuser of the brethern who attacked Job, Jesus, and Paul with his thorn in the flesh.
 
Romans 5
"<SUP id=en-NIV1984-28034 class=versenum>1</SUP> Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28035 class=versenum>2</SUP> through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28036 class=versenum>3</SUP> Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28037 class=versenum>4</SUP> perseverance, character; and character, hope. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28038 class=versenum>5</SUP> And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us."

Suffering for the sake of Christ is never a bad thing. It should be a privilege, even through most people in 2011 don't know what "suffering" is. There's still too much real persecution, but most Christians today don't know that either.

First let me correct the verse you quoted above: it is not "suffering" that produces perseverance but tribulation and tribulation is defined in Strong's Concordance as
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

Note that NONE OF THE ABOVE infer physical or mental sickness or crippling injury. In fact, every word in the definition indicates the effects of persecution. The word "affliction" is the same word as "tribulation" with the same definition as above. Is from a word that means
1) to press (as grapes), press hard upon
2) a compressed way
a) narrow straitened, contracted
3) metaph. to trouble, afflict, distress

It appears you used the NIV Bible for the verses above. You might want to check with the NKJV, KJV or other translations to check what I've said out.

Btw there are plenty of people who know what tribulations are all about in 2011, though admittedly most of them are not residents of America. And isn't it strange that is the case? The Bible says: 2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Wonder if Abraham were pleading for America would God find enough righteous people to save us?
 
It would not be right for us to not suffer. Jesus suffered on the cross, and if our Lord came to this earth to suffer, then we should have to go through suffering as well.

James 1:2-4

Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Are you really thinking Jesus' suffering was incomplete? Paul said he was finishing the suffering of Christ. When is it enough for our salvation and eternal life? Btw, here is the definition of the word translated as "trials" in your quote above:
1) an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
a) trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14) (Note this indicates the perople who saw Paul were tried by his condition, not their own.)
b) the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
2) an internal temptation to sin
a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
3) of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
4) adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness
c) temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
1) rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves

I don't want to repeat what I've said on other posts today so I'll just say all the above definitions speak of turmoil stirred up between the flesh and spirit and not of physical illnesses.
 
Get real!!!

"Is tribulation the same as suffering?"

Is the Pope a Catholic?

Do alligators have bad breath?

Do Bears defecate in the woods??

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

If "Chastening", "Chastisement", and "Scourging" don't result in "Suffering", that I'm not sure what would!!!!!

"Job" is the prototype of God's "Ways and Means" of getting to and EXPOSING what he's intending to "Dig out".
 
Re: Get real!!!

"Is tribulation the same as suffering?"

Is the Pope a Catholic?

Do alligators have bad breath?

Do Bears defecate in the woods??

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

If "Chastening", "Chastisement", and "Scourging" don't result in "Suffering", that I'm not sure what would!!!!!

"Job" is the prototype of God's "Ways and Means" of getting to and EXPOSING what he's intending to "Dig out".

So, do definitions of words in Scripture count? Do meanings matter? Is it okay to confuse intended meanings with our own definitions? I don't know about alligators and bears or even what the Pope is, but this I can say, many doctrinal errors are based on our misunderstanding of God's chosen words. First how about "exhortation"? Concordance says:
1) a calling near, summons, (esp. for help)
2) importation, supplication, entreaty
3) exhortation, admonition, encouragement
4) consolation, comfort, solace; that which affords comfort or refreshment
a) thus of the Messianic salvation (so the Rabbis call the Messiah the consoler, the comforter)
5) persuasive discourse, stirring address
a) instructive, admonitory, conciliatory, powerful hortatory discourse

Then chastening. Concordance says:
1) the whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment) It also includes the training and care of the body
2) whatever in adults also cultivates the soul, esp. by correcting mistakes and curbing passions.
a) instruction which aims at increasing virtue
b) chastisement, chastening, (of the evils with which God visits men for their amendment)

And now, scourgeth: Concordance says
1) a whip, scourge
2) metaph. a scourge, plague
a) a calamity, misfortune, esp. sent by God to discipline or punish


Job is an example of what can happen to those who despise chastisement. It would seem that if chastisement is not "despised" then scourging would not have to happen. As in Job's case, God had to let satan beat him up good, have his friends try to make him see his self-righteousness, even though they didn't speak rightly of God and finally speak to him personally not as a Father but as Creator, to make him shut his mouth. God forbid any of us miss the point and chastisement has to go that far. Or that we'd miss the progression in these verses you brought out. First the exhortation, then the chastisement, and finally the scourging. As usual God is all about fair warning.
 
First let me correct the verse you quoted above: it is not "suffering" that produces perseverance but tribulation and tribulation is defined in Strong's Concordance as
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

Note that NONE OF THE ABOVE infer physical or mental sickness or crippling injury. In fact, every word in the definition indicates the effects of persecution. The word "affliction" is the same word as "tribulation" with the same definition as above. Is from a word that means
1) to press (as grapes), press hard upon
2) a compressed way
a) narrow straitened, contracted
3) metaph. to trouble, afflict, distress

It appears you used the NIV Bible for the verses above. You might want to check with the NKJV, KJV or other translations to check what I've said out.

Btw there are plenty of people who know what tribulations are all about in 2011, though admittedly most of them are not residents of America. And isn't it strange that is the case? The Bible says: 2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Wonder if Abraham were pleading for America would God find enough righteous people to save us?
Thank you for your correction, but I didn't know this was NOT talking about suffering from persecution. This is all about suffering in the Name of Christ as I said. There is global persecution... as I said. Though most people can't relate to real persecution... as I said.

I'm very happy with my NIV... as I often have said. I usually parallel it with the KJV, if that gives you any more confidence in my authenticity as a Christian. Thanks! :)
 
Thank you for your correction, but I didn't know this was NOT talking about suffering from persecution. This is all about suffering in the Name of Christ as I said. There is global persecution... as I said. Though most people can't relate to real persecution... as I said.

I'm very happy with my NIV... as I often have said. I usually parallel it with the KJV, if that gives you any more confidence in my authenticity as a Christian. Thanks! :)
I'm not understanding this sentence: "Thank you for your correction, but I didn't know this was NOT talking about suffering from persecution." I don't know if you meant the double (triple) negatives or if it just a typo. In fact the word tribulation as defined by Strong's DOES refer solely to persecution for the Name of Jesus so far as I understand the definitions.

As for "corrections", let me assure you of two things, first I did not question your Christianity and secondly I was not implying there is anything wrong with the NIV. "As I said", the word in the NIV translated as "suffering" is actually "tribulation" in the Greek Lexicon and the definitions from Strong's Concordance were given in my post.

I had no idea you were defensive about NIV since I've not read any other posts from you so far as I know. Sorry if I stepped on your toes.
 
Required? Required for what? :shrug
Hi, Gazelle, the title was my attempt to see what posters thought about the common conception that Christians are "supposed" to suffer, that it makes them stronger somehow, or deepens their credentials with God somehow. Suffer as in financially, physically and mentally maybe. The only "suffering" ive been able to find in the Bible that is accepted as part of the Christian life is that of persecution for the Name of Jesus. Jesus healed all sicknesses, raised the dead, cast out demons, including a demon of infirmity from the woman with the 12 years stint with sickness, maybe other examples I'm not thinking of right now. If we are doomed to suffer for the sake of somehow being improved, why did He "heal them all"? That was kind of my point in starting this thread.

Blessings to you and yours, my friend. Don't know if you've checked out the other forum but your post is garnering some replies you might be interested in reading.
 
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