IS THE BIBLE TRUE?

[sehad]

I asked this question on a thread in this forum but got no response, so I'll ask it here. Everything a Christian believes is founded on the belief that the bible is true and the inspired word of GOD. But what if the bible is not true? What if it is only a collection of several stories about fictional people? If the bible is not true, then what is the point of living "right"? Why not have fun while you're here and die to rest forever and be no more. Is the bible real? Is it true? How do you know?

 

[Novum]

If the bible is not true, then what is the point of living "right"? Why not have fun while you're here and die to rest forever and be no more.

I don't know about you, but I care about my family. I also care about my neighbors, my society, and the planet I live on. I want to improve all of these things because I depend on them to survive, and I know that my children - and the children of others - will also depend on them to be the best they can. This is why I care about these things, not because the bible says to.

I also know that we, as a society, function well when people don't steal from and kill each other. The golden rule - that simple little saying you learned in elementary school - is a great starting point for learning how to live morally without a god.

I am an atheist. I know that ths life is the only one I get, so it has infinite value for me. I also know that any lives I impact negatively will not be redeemed in an afterlife, and that others' lives also have infinite value for them. For these reasons and others, I must do my utmost to avoid harming others and to live as ethically as possible. I, and billions of others around the world, require no god to live ethically.

And, I would say, if the only thing keeping you from "having fun", stealing, and murdering is your belief in god, we have deeper issues at stake. ;)

 

[sehad]

And, I would say, if the only thing keeping you from "having fun", stealing, and murdering is your belief in god, we have deeper issues at stake. ;)

Agreed. I would never steal or murder anyone whether or not I believed in GOD. These actions are punishable by law of man though, so there is still something that would keep me from committing them. However, cheating on my wife(however punishable by losing half of your stuff) is not physically punishable by man's law. Sleeping with another person's spouse is not punishable by man's law. Drinking and sleeping with anyone I can(if of age) is not punishable by man's law. Not going to church is not punishable by man's law. Not obeying my parents is not punishable by man's law. All of these laws are from the bible. While I agree that these are not the "right" way to live and that anyone that does this has serious issues, they still would have no eternal effect on me if the bible is not true. I would just have less friends if I did them. So if the bible is not true, why bother with not trying to do them(other than moral issues)? So far all I've gotten back from that one person does not believe the bible is true. I don't want that you don't THINK the bible is true. You may say that you don't do these things because the bible teaches against them. Is the bible true? WHY DO YOU SAY IT IS? Surely you wouldn't support or claim that something is false without being able to prove it. Can anyone show me HARD FACTUAL EVIDENCE that the bible is true or false?

 

[ChristineES]

So what you are saying is that if there was no Bible, there would be no morals? I think people ought to think first, write second. :roll:

I have met plenty of atheists and agnostics who have morals, not to mention all the other religions of the world.

 

[Novum]

Agreed. I would never steal or murder anyone whether or not I believed in GOD. These actions are punishable by law of man though, so there is still something that would keep me from committing them. However, cheating on my wife(however punishable by losing half of your stuff) is not physically punishable by man's law. Sleeping with another person's spouse is not punishable by man's law. Drinking and sleeping with anyone I can(if of age) is not punishable by man's law. Not going to church is not punishable by man's law. Not obeying my parents is not punishable by man's law.

Man's law is not a standard for ethics. There is no shortage of immoral acts that are legal, and there is no shortage of moral acts that have been outlawed.

I would not desire to commit any of the acts you cited above, but my reason for avoiding them is not because they are illegal. Laws are temporary and changing; morals are much more deep-rooted. I find the acts you cited immoral, and that is what would prevent me from doing them. Whether or not they are illegal is secondary.

Can anyone show me HARD FACTUAL EVIDENCE that the bible is true or false?

No. No one can.

I am an atheist, and I am therefore of the position that the bible is written by men, full of contradictions, and so on and so forth. Christians who read my words would likely deny there exist any contradictions and spout off anecdotal evidence about the effect of god in their lives.

Whether or not you find the bible to be true is a matter entirely up to your consideration. I could list off story after story about how I've successfully lived my entire life without it; other Christians would retell story after story about how the bible changed their lives for the better. If you buy into Christianity, you will find the bible to be true. If you don't buy in, the bible is irrelevant to you.

Honestly, I think that whether or not the bible is true is the wrong question to be asking. If you can come to a conclusion yourself on whether or not god exists (which god? Zeus? Hera? Thor? and so on...), then I think things will fall into place on their own for you.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Everything a Christian believes is founded on the belief that the bible is true and the inspired word of GOD. But what if the bible is not true? What if it is only a collection of several stories about fictional people?

Christians will not honestly consider that.

 

[ChristineES]

Everything a Christian believes is founded on the belief that the bible is true and the inspired word of GOD. But what if the bible is not true? What if it is only a collection of several stories about fictional people?

Christians will not honestly consider that.

Would you even expect us to?

 

[Sothenes]

I asked this question on a thread in this forum but got no response, so I'll ask it here. Everything a Christian believes is founded on the belief that the bible is true and the inspired word of GOD. But what if the bible is not true? What if it is only a collection of several stories about fictional people? If the bible is not true, then what is the point of living "right"? Why not have fun while you're here and die to rest forever and be no more. Is the bible real? Is it true? How do you know?

There is more archaelogical evidence that the Bible is true. There is more manuscript evidence behind the Bible than people like Plato, Aristotle, etc., and most people don't doubt their existence.

If the Bible is not true then what is the point of living right? Well..If the Bible is not true and there are people doing good then, "So what?" Why should it bother you that Christians are doing good? There are plenty of people doing evil every day and they don't think about God so why do you? I didn't twist your arm to be bothered with the topic of God on this forum.

How do we know that the Bible is not just a collection of fictional people? The Archaeological record has revealed the Bible to be a true book. The fact that you question them as false implies that there is a truth. The fact that you question us doing good implies that there is a good and evil and an ultimate good. If there wasn't a truth then how can you imply that something is false?

 

[Novum]

There is more manuscript evidence behind the Bible than people like Plato, Aristotle, etc.

Such as?

 

[Sothenes]

There is more manuscript evidence behind the Bible than people like Plato, Aristotle, etc.

Such as?

Such as four manuscript families and many thousands of manuscripts of the Bible verses a few hundreds for the philosophers. Nobody nit picks the quality of the manuscripts for the philosophers because it isn't an issue as to whether the philosophers were real or not. Everybody just believes the philosophers existed. The quality of the Bible outsurpasses the quality of many different manuscripts in ancient history (not speaking of any particular manuscript in particular but I know of one).

 

[Klee shay]

The law is now written in our hearts, so the bible is true for those who accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God - desiring to abide in the will of God.

Naturally if people do not desire the things of God, they will see no truth in the bible.

 

[mutzrein]

I asked this question on a thread in this forum but got no response, so I'll ask it here. Everything a Christian believes is founded on the belief that the bible is true and the inspired word of GOD. But what if the bible is not true? What if it is only a collection of several stories about fictional people? If the bible is not true, then what is the point of living "right"? Why not have fun while you're here and die to rest forever and be no more. Is the bible real? Is it true? How do you know?

Well not quite. Yes the bible is true. But I don't believe things only because it is written in the bible. I believe things and the bible confirms it is true.

You see, I believe many so called Christians are what I would call political Christians. They follow the party line. They are taught that if you live your life according to what the bible says then you are a Christian.

On the other hand I believe that a Christian is one who has been born of God. And this is something that happens outside of the realm of human decision. And then once becoming a child of God, what the bible says, is actually confirmed in their life.

Oh yes, the bible's authenticity can be 'proved' by scholars. But the truth that is contained within its pages is more than just an interesting collection of words. It feeds, it corrects, it edifies, it strengthens, it gives direction, it represents life to those who have been born of God.

 

[thessalonian]

The Bible is true. Not all understandings are.

 

[sehad]

So what you are saying is that if there was no Bible, there would be no morals? I think people ought to think first, write second. :roll:

I have met plenty of atheists and agnostics who have morals, not to mention all the other religions of the world.

No, this is not what I'm saying. Most people come to Jesus and become saved over being convicted of something that they are doing wrong. Not necessarily in their eyes until God points this out to them. Fornication, according to the bible is a sin, but if two unmarried people consent before marrying where neither is hurting the other and both are willing for a one night stand, how is this a moral issue? Most of the time the beginning of a Christian's walk with God starts from fear of going to Hell or the desire to go to Heaven. Somewhere along the line it should turn from being bout fear of him to being about love for him. But if the bible is not true, then you are simply fooling yourself.

Man's law is not a standard for ethics. There is no shortage of immoral acts that are legal, and there is no shortage of moral acts that have been outlawed.
I would not desire to commit any of the acts you cited above, but my reason for avoiding them is not because they are illegal. Laws are temporary and changing; morals are much more deep-rooted. I find the acts you cited immoral, and that is what would prevent me from doing them. Whether or not they are illegal is secondary.

But this is YOUR moral code. Moral code will change from person to person and from century to century. The '70s were all about love and weed. Not so much these days. Times change, but the bible remains the same forever. Therefore, the bible sets a "standard" that you should live by. What may be immoral to you, may not be immoral to me. But the bible's morals are set, regardless of what you or I think.


Whether or not you find the bible to be true is a matter entirely up to your consideration. I could list off story after story about how I've successfully lived my entire life without it; other Christians would retell story after story about how the bible changed their lives for the better. If you buy into Christianity, you will find the bible to be true. If you don't buy in, the bible is irrelevant to you.

Novum, I disagree with you on this one. If the bible is true, then you will be judged by it whether or not you choose to believe in it. If it is not true, then you have several people as Christians that have just lived a "better" life as far as morals are concerned than most people. (Not saying all because I know of people that are not church goers that are better morally than people in my own church).

The law is now written in our hearts, so the bible is true for those who accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God - desiring to abide in the will of God.

The bible is true for everyone, or the bible is true for noone.

There is more archaelogical evidence that the Bible is true.

What is this archaelogical evidence?

There is more manuscript evidence behind the Bible than people like Plato, Aristotle, etc., and most people don't doubt their existence.

What is this manuscript evidence?


How do we know that the Bible is not just a collection of fictional people? The Archaeological record has revealed the Bible to be a true book.

What is this archaeological record?

The fact that you question them as false implies that there is a truth. The fact that you question us doing good implies that there is a good and evil and an ultimate good. If there wasn't a truth then how can you imply that something is false?

Where have you seen me claim or imply that the bible is false? If you have seen any of my posts on other topics, you would see that I am indeed a Christian, but I'm just simply looking for HARD FACTUAL Evidence that the bible is true. I mean, you say it is. Novum says it isn't. Either it is or it isn't. Without FACTUAL evidence from either side, it's just a childish "you are" "no you are" going back and forth.

Well not quite. Yes the bible is true. But I don't believe things only because it is written in the bible. I believe things and the bible confirms it is true.

What about the things in the bible that you don't necessarily believe or know about? I've been reading before and read something that I was doing wrong, and was corrected by the bible.

You see, I believe many so called Christians are what I would call political Christians. They follow the party line. They are taught that if you live your life according to what the bible says then you are a Christian.

Yes yes yes. But isn't to say that the bible is "just true" the same as saying I do this because I was raised that way or I don't do this because my pastor says not to?

On the other hand I believe that a Christian is one who has been born of God. And this is something that happens outside of the realm of human decision. And then once becoming a child of God, what the bible says, is actually confirmed in their life.

Agreed, but still doesn't tell me how to prove that the bible is real.

Oh yes, the bible's authenticity can be 'proved' by scholars.


What scholars and how?

But the truth that is contained within its pages is more than just an interesting collection of words. It feeds, it corrects, it edifies, it strengthens, it gives direction, it represents life to those who have been born of God.

My problem with this(as I have done in the past which is the reason for this thread) is that an athiest will come up with all reasons why the bible is not true, how he/she is living a moral life and one with what they feel is filled with purpose(as Novum stated) and all a Christian can say to that is "I believe the bible and its teachings are true". HOW DO YOU KNOW?

 

[Drew]

Man's law is not a standard for ethics. There is no shortage of immoral acts that are legal, and there is no shortage of moral acts that have been outlawed.
I would not desire to commit any of the acts you cited above, but my reason for avoiding them is not because they are illegal. Laws are temporary and changing; morals are much more deep-rooted. I find the acts you cited immoral, and that is what would prevent me from doing them. Whether or not they are illegal is secondary.

But this is YOUR moral code. Moral code will change from person to person and from century to century. The '70s were all about love and weed. Not so much these days. Times change, but the bible remains the same forever. Therefore, the bible sets a "standard" that you should live by. What may be immoral to you, may not be immoral to me. But the bible's morals are set, regardless of what you or I think.

Hello Sehad (and others):

You seem to be arguing that any moral code that is not grounded in the Scriptures must necessarily be "relative", based only on "local" conditions such as the subjectivity of each person and the time in which they live. By extension, the Scriptures are considered to be the only basis for any kind of "absolute" moral code.

I do not think this is really correct. Below is an extract from some material that I posted in another thread:

Atheists and agnostics can indeed be moral. I have come to believe that morality rests in certain properties of "systems of humans" and is not really all that mysterious. In short, moral behaviours are those behaviours which, if engaged in by members of a society, tend to maximize the attainment of certain desirable states - peace, freedom, security, happiness, etc.

The behaviours in questions form a "standard" understandable to all, believer and atheist alike. This standard of morality can be thought of as related to "standards" for good engineering. There are many ways to engineer an aircraft, but some are better than others and, arguably, there exists some unique, truly optimal, set of "engineering behaviours" that maximize the quality of the resulting aircraft.

Same thing with morality - there exists some set of behaviours that maximize goals we all find desirable - peace, freedom, etc. This set forms the standard of morality for that society - and I strongly suspect that the same standard applies to all societies

Nevertheless, I do think that Jesus is the wisest of all men - He gave insights into the true nature of this "optimal" (and therefore absolute) moral code that had not been discerned by others. However, in a strict technical sense, I think "morality" is a "system property" that arises in virtue of the characteristics of human society. There would indeed "exist" an absolute morality even if the Scriptures did not exist.

The Scriptures, I would assert, expose this code to us, but are not the "generative" force that causes the code to come to be.

p1k

 

[Novum]

Man's law is not a standard for ethics. There is no shortage of immoral acts that are legal, and there is no shortage of moral acts that have been outlawed.
I would not desire to commit any of the acts you cited above, but my reason for avoiding them is not because they are illegal. Laws are temporary and changing; morals are much more deep-rooted. I find the acts you cited immoral, and that is what would prevent me from doing them. Whether or not they are illegal is secondary.

But this is YOUR moral code. Moral code will change from person to person and from century to century. The '70s were all about love and weed. Not so much these days. Times change, but the bible remains the same forever. Therefore, the bible sets a "standard" that you should live by. What may be immoral to you, may not be immoral to me. But the bible's morals are set, regardless of what you or I think.

I'll direct you to Drew's response here, with which I'm in full agreement. However, I will add that while personal moral codes will change to reflect the times, this is preferable to static morality.

You've actually named an example of a moral act that has been deemed illegal by the US - marijuana. I tried it for the first time recently, and I was expecting the stuff to really mess me up - after all, it's illegal, right? Not so. I got woozy and happy for a few hours, I laughed a lot at the cottage cheese in my fridge, I had possibly the most interesting shower I've ever taken, and that was the end of it. I'd certainly say that alcohol has done far worse things to me than marijuana, yet we find alcohol to be legal.

Societies change over time. The bible does not prohibit slavery, yet our society does. Our society hasn't always done so, but the bible has. Societies are not static objects; they are fluid devices with many moving parts. To try to restrain them to a single static moral code is not desirable.

 

[sehad]

Man's law is not a standard for ethics. There is no shortage of immoral acts that are legal, and there is no shortage of moral acts that have been outlawed.
I would not desire to commit any of the acts you cited above, but my reason for avoiding them is not because they are illegal. Laws are temporary and changing; morals are much more deep-rooted. I find the acts you cited immoral, and that is what would prevent me from doing them. Whether or not they are illegal is secondary.

But this is YOUR moral code. Moral code will change from person to person and from century to century. The '70s were all about love and weed. Not so much these days. Times change, but the bible remains the same forever. Therefore, the bible sets a "standard" that you should live by. What may be immoral to you, may not be immoral to me. But the bible's morals are set, regardless of what you or I think.

I'll direct you to Drew's response here, with which I'm in full agreement. However, I will add that while personal moral codes will change to reflect the times, this is preferable to static morality.

You've actually named an example of a moral act that has been deemed illegal by the US - marijuana. I tried it for the first time recently, and I was expecting the stuff to really mess me up - after all, it's illegal, right? Not so. I got woozy and happy for a few hours, I laughed a lot at the cottage cheese in my fridge, I had possibly the most interesting shower I've ever taken, and that was the end of it. I'd certainly say that alcohol has done far worse things to me than marijuana, yet we find alcohol to be legal.

Societies change over time. The bible does not prohibit slavery, yet our society does. Our society hasn't always done so, but the bible has. Societies are not static objects; they are fluid devices with many moving parts. To try to restrain them to a single static moral code is not desirable.

Novum, I can see where you are coming from here and you also Drew. Slavery was not wrong by society during the bible days, now it is. That's a different discussion for a different thread. I agree with you on the alcohol/weed thing as well. I actually had a friend in college prove that caffine was worse on the mind and body than weed was. Quite interesting. But that's beside the point, the purpose of me starting this thread was two reasons and two reasons alone.

1. For Christians to show me historical data or hard evidence supported by facts that the bible is correct.

2. For athiests or nonbelievers show me contradictions. The bible says this here and this here and they contradict. The bible says this and scientists have discovered this, that is why this bible is wrong.

 

[Novum]

Novum, I can see where you are coming from here and you also Drew. Slavery was not wrong by society during the bible days, now it is. That's a different discussion for a different thread. I agree with you on the alcohol/weed thing as well. I actually had a friend in college prove that caffine was worse on the mind and body than weed was. Quite interesting. But that's beside the point, the purpose of me starting this thread was two reasons and two reasons alone.

1. For Christians to show me historical data or hard evidence supported by facts that the bible is correct.

2. For athiests or nonbelievers show me contradictions. The bible says this here and this here and they contradict. The bible says this and scientists have discovered this, that is why this bible is wrong.

Fair enough.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/co ... tions.html

This page alone has a list of 367 contradictions:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c ... _name.html

A simple google search will bring you dozens of other pages of contradictions.

But this isn't what you're looking for. If you are determined to see the bible as true, then you will find a way to explain away any contradictions you come across and these lists will have no effect. If you have doubt in your mind or are becoming skeptical, you're already on your way to reevaluating your position and these lists will, again, have no effect.

I find myself wondering, then, what your goal is for this thread. ;)

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Everything a Christian believes is founded on the belief that the bible is true and the inspired word of GOD. But what if the bible is not true? What if it is only a collection of several stories about fictional people?

Christians will not honestly consider that.

Would you even expect us to?

No, only those who really desire truth, no matter what impact it may have on their chosen belief, will honestly consider all the facts.

 

[Sothenes]

The bible does not prohibit slavery, yet our society does. Our society hasn't always done so, but the bible has. Societies are not static objects; they are fluid devices with many moving parts. To try to restrain them to a single static moral code is not desirable.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1 Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers (slavery) , for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Slavery is another discussion.