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IS THE BIBLE TRUE?

gingercat said:
This is my understanding of the Bible that all good morals are from the Bible. You cannot miss any good morals that is not in the Bible, period.


Something that seems to be missing from the New Testament is any real support for intellectual virtue. Instead, the attitude seems to be: "The wisdom of this world is folly with God" (1 Corinthians 3:19). That is how it seems to me anyway, does anyone know any verses which show otherwise? All I can really think of, is that the Bible does mention something about being as, "wise as serpents", but that doesn't do much to counteract the impression of hostility to the intellect.

Also, does anyone know any verses in the Bible where you have someone that doesn't agree with Jesus on some point of doctrine or whatever, and Jesus treats that person and their point of view with respect?
 
DivineNames said:
Also, does anyone know any verses in the Bible where you have someone that doesn't agree with Jesus on some point of doctrine or whatever, and Jesus treats that person and their point of view with respect?

Again, this is judgment call. I will let Jesus judge if I am being disrespectful. I will keep on speaking for my convictions. Can you respect that?
 
gingercat said:
Again, this is judgment call. I will let Jesus judge if I am being disrespectful. I will keep on speaking for my convictions. Can you respect that?

It is admittedly difficult to respect "convictions" that are so obviously, demonstrably incorrect. Ever had a conversation with someone who honestly believes the world is flat? Same deal.
 
gingercat said:
That is your obsevation and I respect it. nontheless I will not discuss with someone who already closed to what I offered and explained many times. watch what you are saying Artguy. Read what I went through with Novum in my thread befor you criticize me in this manner. I gave him my best shot to reach out to him.

Oh, I've followed your various conversations. I've also conversed with Novum fairly extensively myself. He's pretty respectful of differing opinions as long as that respect is reciprocated. I would humbly suggest that perhaps you should reconsider your approach in certain matters if you wish to have more fulfilling discussions with people with different opinions. While I don't doubt your intentions are good, you have a tendency to appear a little stand-offish and dismissive of people with whom you disagree. Perhaps you don't mean to, but that's the impression I get.

And to add my two cents to the mix:

I don't think it's coincidence that the morality preached in the Bible tends to be those things that make for a prosperous society. A smart God would certainly construct a moral system and a world in which morals weren't in opposition to what works best. This would also result in a world in which reasonable smart people could logically deduce a moral system even if they'd never heard of God. I also believe that not all of the rules laid out in the Bible are really moral in nature. Treating others well is a moral issue, and is universal. Not getting piercings isn't so much a moral guideline as a good thing to practice when you haven't yet invented antibacterial soap.
 
I don't think it's coincidence that the morality preached in the Bible tends to be those things that make for a prosperous society. A smart God would certainly construct a moral system and a world in which morals weren't in opposition to what works best. I also believe that not all of the rules laid out in the Bible are really moral in nature. Treating others well is a moral issue, and is universal. Not getting piercings isn't so much a moral guideline as a good thing to practice when you haven't yet invented antibacterial soap.

ACtually Romans 2:24-16 says God's laws are on all men's hearts so what you say is correct. Our natures are corrupt so we do not follow them anywhere near perfectly but they are inside of us and speak to us in our conscience.
 
Here is some food for thought.

When I was taking the Physical Antho class I mentioned in other threads, I watched a movie. In it, they had some Australian Aboriginies talk about how people were created, they said that the first man and woman were made from mud. That is so similiar to Adam and Eve's creation, I just could not dismiss it.
The fact that so many different faiths have such similiar stories proves opposite with me than with most non-believers, it seems. It proves that the stories were based on truth. More than one religion mentions a flood, and many more things.
Also, the Aboriginies were never anywhere near the Middle East, where Adam and Eve's story was written!!!!!
 
ChristineES said:
Here is some food for thought.

When I was taking the Physical Antho class I mentioned in other threads, I watched a movie. In it, they had some Australian Aboriginies talk about how people were created, they said that the first man and woman were made from mud. That is so similiar to Adam and Eve's creation, I just could not dismiss it.
The fact that so many different faiths have such similiar stories proves opposite with me than with most non-believers, it seems. It proves that the stories were based on truth. More than one religion mentions a flood, and many more things.
Also, the Aboriginies were never anywhere near the Middle East, where Adam and Eve's story was written!!!!!

That some version of the stories is found in other cultures at an earlier date than when Moses wrote down the events (that happened long before) only shows that the events were carried on by other people in other cultures. The day that the stories were written in the Bible means nothing with regard to when they happened. They were oral traditions until that time.

Blessings
 
ArtGuy said:
I would humbly suggest that perhaps you should reconsider your approach in certain matters if you wish to have more fulfilling discussions with people with different opinions.

I humbly sugget to you too that I am doing my best to make best judgement when it is time to discuss and time to stop beating the dead horse.
 
thessalonian said:
ChristineES said:
Here is some food for thought.

When I was taking the Physical Antho class I mentioned in other threads, I watched a movie. In it, they had some Australian Aboriginies talk about how people were created, they said that the first man and woman were made from mud. That is so similiar to Adam and Eve's creation, I just could not dismiss it.
The fact that so many different faiths have such similiar stories proves opposite with me than with most non-believers, it seems. It proves that the stories were based on truth. More than one religion mentions a flood, and many more things.
Also, the Aboriginies were never anywhere near the Middle East, where Adam and Eve's story was written!!!!!

That some version of the stories is found in other cultures at an earlier date than when Moses wrote down the events (that happened long before) only shows that the events were carried on by other people in other cultures. The day that the stories were written in the Bible means nothing with regard to when they happened. They were oral traditions until that time.

Blessings

Yes, I know. That is why I believe it. We were all descendents of Noah, weren't we? 8-)
 
I can see that is it very very easy for different topics to come up in a discussion like this. I don't get of for a day and it goes from Novum showing me contradictions to us being decendants of Noah. Can't any Christian on here offer me atleast some facts to where the bible is proven true by history, or science, or something?
 
Novum said:
sehad said:
Agreed. I would never steal or murder anyone whether or not I believed in GOD. These actions are punishable by law of man though, so there is still something that would keep me from committing them. However, cheating on my wife(however punishable by losing half of your stuff) is not physically punishable by man's law. Sleeping with another person's spouse is not punishable by man's law. Drinking and sleeping with anyone I can(if of age) is not punishable by man's law. Not going to church is not punishable by man's law. Not obeying my parents is not punishable by man's law.

Man's law is not a standard for ethics. There is no shortage of immoral acts that are legal, and there is no shortage of moral acts that have been outlawed.

I would not desire to commit any of the acts you cited above, but my reason for avoiding them is not because they are illegal. Laws are temporary and changing; morals are much more deep-rooted. I find the acts you cited immoral, and that is what would prevent me from doing them. Whether or not they are illegal is secondary.

Can anyone show me HARD FACTUAL EVIDENCE that the bible is true or false?

No. No one can.

I am an atheist, and I am therefore of the position that the bible is written by men, full of contradictions, and so on and so forth. Christians who read my words would likely deny there exist any contradictions and spout off anecdotal evidence about the effect of god in their lives.

Whether or not you find the bible to be true is a matter entirely up to your consideration. I could list off story after story about how I've successfully lived my entire life without it; other Christians would retell story after story about how the bible changed their lives for the better. If you buy into Christianity, you will find the bible to be true. If you don't buy in, the bible is irrelevant to you.

Honestly, I think that whether or not the bible is true is the wrong question to be asking. If you can come to a conclusion yourself on whether or not god exists (which god? Zeus? Hera? Thor? and so on...), then I think things will fall into place on their own for you.


Well, I am not going to argue with an atheist, but, i will give some facts for the proof that the Holy Bible is true. Liberals with their darkened minds like to attack the Bible. 2Cor. 10 tells us that we are to "destroy speculations(ideas) and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God" and we are to take "every thought captive to the obedience of Christ". So, since the atheist does not believe the bible to be true and wrttien by God, i will take a scientific aproach:










Fulfilled Prophecies

The remarkable evidence of fulfilled prophecy is just one case in point. Hundreds of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, specifically and meticulously, often long after the prophetic writer had passed away.

For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.

There are extensive prophecies dealing with individual nations and cities and with the course of history in general, all of which have been literally fulfilled. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects.

There is no other book, ancient or modern, like this. The vague, and usually erroneous, prophecies of people like Jeanne Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them are not in the same category at all, and neither are other religious books such as the Koran, the Confucian Analects, and similar religious writings. Only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation.

Unique Historical Accuracy

The historical accuracy of the Scriptures is likewise in a class by itself, far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations. Archeological confirmations of the Biblical record have been almost innumerable in the last century. Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:

"No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries."

Scientific Accuracy

Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:

Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)

Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)

Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)

Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

and many others.
These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.

It is significant also that no real mistake has ever been demonstrated in the Bible -- in science, in history, or in any other subject. Many have been claimed, of course, but conservative Bible scholars have always been able to work out reasonable solutions to all such problems.


resource: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html


In Christ,
Andrew
 
Thank you Disciple, this is what I'm looking for from BOTH sides. And Novum, I know that you don't understand why I'm doing this but I have my reasons which after I'm done I will discuss with you if you wish.
 
Disciple88 said:
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)

There are also passages which make the earth seem flat. This one is a wash at best.

Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)

Where do you get "almost infinite" from "higher"? That's just the obvious observation that whatever the earth is sitting in is a lot bigger than the earth.

Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

That's quite a reach, there.

Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

You think that somebody of reasonable intellect couldn't figure that if the river water keeps coming, it must be replenished from somewhere?

Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)

10 seconds spent looking up will tell you there are a lot of stars.

Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

"Things wear out" is not a very prescient proclamation. It's also a pretty poor laymen's explanation of the principle the second law of thermo.

Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

It doesn't take divine wisdom to figure out that when people bleed a whole lot, they die.

Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

It's a reasonable description of circulation, but it doesn't really seem to be expressed as a scientfic revelation.

Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

Even if I squint really hard, I fail to see how that has anything to do with proper gravitational theory. The earth isn't "suspended" in any sense.

Look, when people try to "prove" the Bible, they just wind up grasping at straws. If God had wanted to give us a science lecture, He would have given us the Book of Physics as an addendum. Trying to pluck isolated sentences from the Bible and playing Guess the Scientific Principle doesn't mean anything. I could pick just as many passages that are, on their face, directly at odds with math and science. That doesn't matter, though, because the Bible isn't supposed to be teaching us math or science, and oblique references to such should be viewed in the metaphorical or spiritual context in which they were intended.

And at any rate, we shouldn't be trying to create a formal proof for Christianity, anyway. Rigorous proof is at odds with the faith that the Lord tells us we should have. As long as science isn't directly at odds with fundamental biblical tenets - and it's not, properly understood - we're all good. We shouldn't believe in the Bible because we saw a proof written down in a book somewhere. We should believe in it because we looked into our hearts and found Jesus there waving back at us. Anyone who accepts Jesus because a series of logical statements compelled him to is going about it all wrong.
 
Disciple88 said:
Well, I am not going to argue with an atheist, but, i will give some facts for the proof that the Holy Bible is true. Liberals with their darkened minds like to attack the Bible.

You seem to be suggesting that all liberals desire to "attack the bible" and, implicitly, that all conservatives desire to defend it. Believe me, Disciple, you couldn't be more wrong on both counts.

So, since the atheist does not believe the bible to be true and wrttien by God, i will take a scientific aproach:

I'll not spend any time responding to your supposed "scientific approach" as ArtGuy has done so already. :)
 
Disciple88 said:
since the atheist does not believe the bible to be true and wrttien by God, i will take a scientific aproach:


Fulfilled Prophecies

The remarkable evidence of fulfilled prophecy is just one case in point. Hundreds of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, specifically and meticulously, often long after the prophetic writer had passed away.

For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.

Daniel 9 talks about a couple of anointed ones I think. Why would that be about Jesus, when he was never anointed?

Jesus himself seems to use the prophecy with regard to the destruction of the Second Temple, which is one of a couple of ways that Jews seem to interpret it.

Disciple88 said:
More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming.

For the problem with this argument–

Farrell Till, Prophecy Fulfillment and Probability
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazin ... rob93.html
 
thessalonian said:
ChristineES said:
Here is some food for thought.

When I was taking the Physical Antho class I mentioned in other threads, I watched a movie. In it, they had some Australian Aboriginies talk about how people were created, they said that the first man and woman were made from mud. That is so similiar to Adam and Eve's creation, I just could not dismiss it

Want to hear what else Australian Aboriginies believe in? That "Dreaming Beings" rule the natural world and that their willingness to release fertility depends on people performing certain rituals. Hey, maybe they're right about that too? :bday:


The fact that so many different faiths have such similiar stories proves opposite with me than with most non-believers, it seems. It proves that the stories were based on truth. More than one religion mentions a flood, and many more things

Floods are common to much of the world so it's no wonder that a MYTH concerning a really big flood would arise among many cultures. But probably the MOST common religious belief throughout history has been polytheism. Shall we apply your logic and determine that the possibility that there are many gods, and not just one, is "based on truth"?
 
I cannot say that all atheists attack the bible. When she was still and agnostic, my mother told me that the bible was beautifully written. She, like other members of this board who are nonbelievers, read and studied the Bible.
To keep arguing with a non-believer after you have told him what you believe is pointless. I don't have enough charisma to convice someone that the Earth is round, much less of something they cannot see.
They will either never accept it, or they will at a later time. They know about it, they just don't believe it. There are some who cannot believe in something unless they can hold it, see it, touch it. Even one of the Apostles (Thomas) was a doubter, he had to touch Jesus before he believed he rose again. It seems that some of the non-believers on this board know the bible, know what it says, but think that it is just a fairy tale. I wish I could convince them, but it is not up to me, it is up to them.
Sorry for the rambling and somewhat off topic post.
 
Beautifully stated Christine. I will admit in certain cases, it seems as some non-believers know more of the bible than I or anyone else that claims to be a Christian.
 
To keep arguing with a non-believer after you have told him what you believe is pointless. I don't have enough charisma to convice someone that the Earth is round, much less of something they cannot see

How do you know the earth is round? Could it be through, mmmmmm....

science? :evil:
 
sehad said:
Beautifully stated Christine. I will admit in certain cases, it seems as some non-believers know more of the bible than I or anyone else that claims to be a Christian.

You know the reason for this could be because quite a few non-believers used to be Christians, but this is a fact that most fundamental Christians do not believe possible.

They will say -

"Oh, then they never were really Christians in the first place" :roll:

The possibility of this is apparently too threatening for them to accept, but I assure you there are multitudes of previously sincere Christian believers who no longer sincerely believe.
 
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