Is the Creation account in Genesis Literal?

[disciple_of_truth]

We KNOW that men have existed on this continent for THOUSANDS of years, (the estimate is between 12 and 20,000 years). We KNOW that there were once Wooley Mamouths on this continent coexisting with men. For men made TOOLS of their bones and such.

Actually the current estimate of man's existence is between 6,000 and 10,000 years according to scripture. Which, consequently, also corresponds to things like "written history", archeology and current world population studies when you figure in the flood of around 4,000 BC.

We have evidence that the Mamouth became extinct about 16,000 years ago.

How do we know this? Is this something you have observed first hand? Is it something that you have personally researched through your own field studies and excavations? Or, is this piece of information just something that some author or scientist said at some point in time that seemed to sound reasonable and so someone wrote it down? Why 16,000 years ago? Why not 15,000 or 20,000 or even 4,453 years ago? Do all scientists agree with this number? Who does and who doesn't. Are you absolutely certain that this info is truth?

Do you honestly think that ALL this that science has offered is simply 'imagination'? And for WHAT purpose?

Yes, at least most of it is. Satan loves to deceive the world. It's just that simple. Man is living in a fallen world where satan is a liar and the father of all lies. Satan will do anything he can in attempt to drag us away from the truth. We tend to believe much of it because we are sinners and tend to not want to believe God's Word. But, for some, God has brought us out of that darkness and into light. He has given us a new heart with new desires. He as given us His Truth and the desire to understand it as Truth. Praise Him!

This type evidence does NOT alter MY FAITH. It actually strengthens it. For, the more that we are able to understand, the CLOSER to that image in which we were created we BECOME.

Sir, what is it exactly that you have put your faith in?

IF, as has been stated, the continents 'drifted' AFTER man was created, how would we have possibly survived such catastrophic events? For we can PLAINLY witness the massive events that take place with the ocean floor simply moves a matter of feet. For the continents to have drifted THOUSANDS of MILES would mean that they were moving at MASIVE distances a year. What kind of global distruction would this have entailed.

Well, maybe a massive flood? Maybe one that covered the whole earth. There must have been a fairly serious change of catastrophic events that took place to cause the whole earth to flood. And, maybe man survived because he was safe in...... the Ark?? Just guessing.

No, there is NO reason to believe that the separation of land masses DIDN'T take millions of billions of years. The ONLY reason that many Christians refuse to accept it is that the churches are STILL teaching that the Earth is ONLY a few thousand years old. And this due to an inacurate veiw of a 'literal' six day creation.

Yes, we have plenty of reason to believe in a young earth, be sure of that. The church (that is the body of believers in Jesus Christ) still teach a young earth because the Bible teaches a young earth. Who are we to change the word of God? Besides, if you trust true science (and of course you would need to do some work to know what is true science and what is not) then you would understand that true science always corresponds to reality and to scripture. The only one's who have an inaccurate view of the six literal days of Creation are the ones who continue to ignore the proper hermeneutical and exegetical interpretation of scripture. The ones who believe in the lies of satan.

Since we have the words offered that a 'day to God is as a thousand years and a thousand years a day', we can clearly see that the PURPOSE of the 'day' being used is to SHOW a distinction in TIME PERIODS. Men, at the time this information was offered, understood a day to be, ' a beginning of a time period and an END to that time period'. Simple enough for even a child to understand. But when we start speaking of MILLIONS of years, this is simply inconcievable to children, or even men with a limited understanding of eternity.

Again, you have continued to ignore most, if not all, of what we have attempted to show you in regards to scripture that explains that a Genesis "day" means a literal 24 hour period. You are trying to use human reason to make this all work. You have not made any real effort to address the questions that your claims have stirred up. You are really wanting Genesis to say something that it does not. In so doing, you may just be shipwrecking the faith of some. If you happen to be teaching this rhetoric to others then be sure that you will be held more accountable as one who teaches.

James 3:1 - Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

 

[Imagican]

Once again, let me offer this:

It is absolutely AMAZING that the 'traditional Christian' will dial up their cell phone and speak with those around the world through the use of Satalite technology. They'll go to the hospital and have an ultrasound or cat scan done, heck, even an X-ray. They'll jump in their auto and drive across countries, pop some left overs in the microwave, watch their 540 channels of satalite Television, listen to their XM radio, and pop any kind of pill the doctor has to offer, yet when it comes to the science of our history; NOPE, don't believe ONE BIT OF IT. Kinda like the proverbial ostrich with it's 'head in the hole'.

We DO have TONS of evidence that offers knowledge of our HISTORY. There are MANY that have spent their lives in the persuit of explaning ancient man. Only to have those that believe in fairy tales and myths come along and say; "Nope, that doesn't jibe with our 'fairy tale' so it CAN'T be TRUE.

Carbon dating, the rings on trees and fossilization. These ARE relatively ACCURATE means of measuring TIME. Are they PERFECT? Of course not. but if only TEN percent accurate, then we STILL have plenty of evidence that dinosaurs and man NEVER coexisted. That there were EVEN life forms that are MASSIVE amounts of time OLDER than the dinosaurs.

The FACT that we ARE able to measure the speed of light PLAINLY Offers a glimse into the AMOUNT of time that the stars have BEEN IN EXISTENCE. To deny such is to, once again, choose to plug one's head in the ground simply for the sake of beliefs that were created by men that didn't even understand that the air they breathed was made up of different gasses composed of many different SOLID elements. Not a very realistic approach to the world in which we live. Once again, some would seem to choose to follow 'fairy tales' and 'myths' rather than simply accept what is so clearly visible.

I have found NOTHING that science has offered in PROOF to refute a SINGLE word of The Bible. NOT A WORD. Only the misaligned interpretations of MUCH of what the Word has to offer.

God IS IMMORTAL folks. Time to HIM is NOT what it is to US. HE created the 'illusion' of time and it is HIS to manipulate in whatever manner He chooses.

The 24 hour day was 'created' by God. He is NOT confined to it. He is OUTSIDE of it. A day to Him has NO bearing on the mere 24 hour rotational period of this meager planet. That the light that one sees when peering into the heavens PLAINLY SHOWS this. For that light, oftentimes, is MILLIONS of years old. Unless God has pulled some kind of 'cosmic joke', we can PLAINLY SEE the evidence through just a BASIC understanding of WHAT a 'star is' and the 'speed of light'. BOTH THINGS we ARE able to discern.

Is science perfect? NO WAY. We are still learning for there is STILL much to learn. But that we HAVE learned MUCH since the time of Moses is without debate.

It has been offered in this thread that there are those that BELIEVE, (or at least say they do), that the continents have managed to separate by THOUSANDS of miles in a mere FIVE THOUSAND YEARS. I would ask: IF this is truth. IF the continents experienced this kind of massive motion in the past, when and WHY did they slow down to their present speed of millimeters a year. For at this rate, it would obviously take MILLIONS of years to find themselves in their present positions. Why such a massive movement for such a limited amount of time. When we CLEARLY see that erosion, sedimentation, vulcanism and such, often times are ongoing processes that are BARELY measurable in MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

Oh yeah, there ARE events which take place in short periods of time. But in general, in the historic records of manking, the earth as we know it NOW has pretty much BEEN THIS WAY ever since recorded history. But we KNOW that it was once MUCH MUCH MUCH different than what we observe today.

IF Mt Everest COULD have been formed OVERNIGHT, then such a monumental motion would have likely destroyed practically EVERY life form on that side of the globe. Most certainly anything as large as a human.

No guys, we were NOT created in the image of God only to CHOOSE to refuse that KNOWLEDGE that has so PLAINLY been offered. Gravity, magnatism, lightening, earthquakes; these are NOT mystical or magical 'things' that we are UNABLE to understand. It took TIME, but we HAVE been able IN that time to understand these things rather than simply labeling them 'magic'. Not that many years ago, those that witnessed lightening believed it to BE the hand of God or earthquakes to be created by God. Not that God is unable to influence or create whatever He chooses, we are NOW able to discern, not only that these are NATURAL events due to the nature of the planet, but explain them in quite a bit of detail so far as their characteristics.

If not for an unending pursuit of UNDERSTANDING these things, you WOULDN'T be talking on that cell phone, or watching that satalite TV or driving that automobile. Sciences unending attempts at understanding the history of this planet are NO DIFFERENT except they refute the beliefs of those that would STILL insist upon myths and fairy tales created by men that were barely to supply their own basic needs, much less discern the FACT that every living thing that they encountered was determined by it's genetic makeup.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[John]

Yeah.... anyone who claims to follow the Bible (Gods word) and then turns around and calls it a fairy tale and a myth and advocates faulty "science" does not sit well with me.


I said this same thing to a Catholic on this board and he turned a blind eye to it, lets see what you think.

your "science" says we evolved, the earth is billions of years old, the continents always moved slow, there was no global flood etc etc. Your "science" also says that the Mary must have had a lover on the side, Jesus did not come die and come back to life. What now? Should we throw out all miracles? If so why don't we just throw out the entire Bible since if its wrong about everything else its probably wrong about the end as well.


So logically your a hypocrite, that or you just pick what is most favorable to you and then try to press that onto others.

Digest that.

 

[disciple_of_truth]

HE created the 'illusion' of time and it is HIS to manipulate in whatever manner He chooses.

What Bible verse says that?

Maybe if I keep it short you might start addressing some of the questions posed to you.

 

[Cornelius]

Do you honestly think that ALL this that science has offered is simply 'imagination'? And for WHAT purpose?

I would say yes, they mostly have imagination, because none of their theories can be proved by science.
The purpose is so that they can give humanity another explanation of how they came into being. The purpose is so that people must look away from a Creator, and focus on the creation "creating itself" (a but of an oxymoron I know, but they are fine with that)

Since we have the words offered that a 'day to God is as a thousand years and a thousand years a day', we can clearly see that the PURPOSE of the 'day' being used is to SHOW a distinction in TIME PERIODS.

If you want to use that scripture, then you must use it correctly. The Bible does not say that a day is millions of years, but a day is a thousand years. So that would be seven thousand years of creation then, and nobody is even suggesting anywhere that , that is the case.So its not seven thousand years.. But we all know that God did not write that scripture with Genesis in mind.

God created the world in just seven real days.

 

[Cornelius]

There is more evidence for a creation and the flood, because there is no evidence for evolution at all. They have a theory, which they push as evidence, but when you look closer, you will only find a theory.

You have no idea what a theory is. And evolution is a theory as well as a fact. You've got it backwards. We have no evidence whatsoever for either creation or a global flood. None. It simply doesn't exist.

Thanks,
Eric

Firstly you cannot have a theory that is a fact, because you then will have a factual theory :crazy
Secondly the only real evidence there is, supports a creation and a flood. The evidence for a flood is enormous.

 

[Cornelius]

Why are there clam fossils on top of Mt Everest ? Did they climb? LOL The top 3000 feet of Mt Everest is covered with clam fossils and other ocean living fossils.

Fact, not theory.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Hello Cornelius.

I recommend that you do some research into the formation of mountains to fully answer your question.

Todays beach can become tomorrows mountain top.

 

[Imagican]

HE created the 'illusion' of time and it is HIS to manipulate in whatever manner He chooses.

What Bible verse says that?

Maybe if I keep it short you might start addressing some of the questions posed to you.

It DOESN'T TAKE a 'bible verse' to be ABLE to discern MUCH that is RELATIVE to The Word.

A 'Creator', (especially one such as God, who, by the way CREATED the EARTH), is ABLE to create in the manner in which HE chooses. Unless, of course, you are of the persuation that God is CONFINED BY His Creation?

But I CAN offer words that ARE contained within The Word that state that 'a day to God............'.

But, since you choose to seek an ACTUAL line of scripture that states that God is NOT contained within the confines of time that HE created, I am unable to offer MUCH that would alter your perceptions.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Yeah.... anyone who claims to follow the Bible (Gods word) and then turns around and calls it a fairy tale and a myth and advocates faulty "science" does not sit well with me.


I said this same thing to a Catholic on this board and he turned a blind eye to it, lets see what you think.

your "science" says we evolved, the earth is billions of years old, the continents always moved slow, there was no global flood etc etc. Your "science" also says that the Mary must have had a lover on the side, Jesus did not come die and come back to life. What now? Should we throw out all miracles? If so why don't we just throw out the entire Bible since if its wrong about everything else its probably wrong about the end as well.


So logically your a hypocrite, that or you just pick what is most favorable to you and then try to press that onto others.

Digest that.

John,

What I have offered I have NOT Offered to 'sit well' with ANYONE. I have simply offered that what YOU say the Word STATES is merely what you have been LED to BELIEVE it MEANS. I have NOT stated that ANYTHING contained within the Bible is 'fairy tale', JUST the WAY that much of it was interpreted by those that ATTEMPTED to do so without ANY knowledge OTHER THAN the words.

I have also stated without restraint that; '' I do NOT believe that there is ANYTHING that science has PROVEN that contradicts the Word in ANY WAY". Yes, there is much in science that is theory and much of this certainly contradicts what has been offered up in Word. But MOST of what I have chosen to discuss in this topic does NOT contradict a SINGLE WORD of The Bible. Only what YOU and OTHERS BELIEVE it to say. And when we study to find WHO created the traditionalists interpretation, we find that they were those that lived AT THE TIME OF MOSES. Those who's understanding would CERTAINLY have been LIMITED.

Example:

Revelation. WHO, at the time John wrote it, INCLUDING HIMSELF, would have understood the significance of MOST of what he wrote? NO ONE. Not EVEN JOHN. For the Revelation was not MEANT for John. It was meant for those of the future who WITNESS it's events. Let me exlain further:

MUCH of the prophetic nature of the Word was written NOT to those who were alive at the TIME it was written, but for those of a FUTURE TIME. Psalms was written MANY hundreds of years BEFORE the birth of Christ, but NO ONE seems to have a difficult time recognizing THIS. What was written WAS written so that those alive AT THE TIME of Christ's birth would RECOGNIZE Him.

Much of Revelation was offered in the same manner. The visions that John speaks of would have had LITTLE if ANY relevance to HIM. But he was NOT commanded to; "Listen and UNDERSTAND", he was simply told to; "WRITE what YOU SEE and hear".

So, what makes YOU or anyone else even THINK that the story of creation could have been written for those that were alive at the time that it was written. For those at that time didn't even KNOW that; those THINGS contained within creation' were MADE UP OF individual units that we call 'molecules'. And then it took a LONG TIME before mankind realized that even these were made up of EVEN SMALLER units called ATOMS. Do you THINK that it was NOT the 'will of God' that we LEARN of these things?

We would NEVER have been GIVEN the capacity if we were NEVER meant to LEARN. (Everything in it's PROPER PERSPECTIVE', get it?)

All I have attempted is to point out that MUCH of that which was BARELY understood at the time that it was offered, is NOW able to BE understood with MUCH more accuracy. For, regardless of what you MAY or MAY NOT teach your children or others, the TRUTH is that we HAVE learned MUCH that IS FACT concerning the past. It doesn't matter that one LKE it or NOT. What matters is that one be ABLE to accept the 'truth' regardless of what they BELIEVE it to BE.

Lying to oneself is WORSE than lying to others. For one CAN lie to others and STILL know the truth. But to lie to oneself places one in a postion that they CANNOT KNOW the TRUTH. And, by limiting themselves in such a manner, most likely, NEVER even be ABLE to come to It. Let the church of the past PLAINLY point out the TRUTH of the words that I offer RIGHT NOW. For there was a time that the church 'made up' what they BELIEVED, (and used the Word to back it up), and taught it to others. Threatening ANY that denied their offering with punishment as extreme as DEATH. ONLY to find LATER that they were WRONG in their assumptions. Swearing by what they had taught for HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS of years, ONLY to be eventually FORCED, (by PROOF), that their teachings were WRONG. TOTALLY WRONG.

It's ODD that those that oppose what I have offered are QUICK to 'add' to what I have offered in accusation. I have added NOTHING to the Word. Quick to accuse me of 'altering' what has been offered in Word. NOPE, not that either. ALL that I have done is offer that what many have been TAUGHT TO BELIEVE is NOT necessarily the TRUTH. For ONCE you become PREDISPOSED to BELIEVE something particular, it is THEN very EASY to 'read into it' whatsoever you choose. That is exactly the case here. MOST have been LED to believe a particular story, (most of which IS a 'fairy tale', 'myth', STORY, or whatever you may CHOOSE to call it), when in FACT most of it IS what 'someone' MADE UP according to THEIR understanding of what was offered. Passed this on, and even went so far as to FORCE others into BELIEVING it.

Question:

How many generations do you 'think' that it would take to CHANGE the truth into 'something else'? Example: Russia decides to start teaching their people that Americans are 'the devil in the flesh'. Anyone that is caught teaching ANYTHING other than this concerning the Americans will be tortured and then murdered when they confess to teaching AGAINST the State. How MANY generations do you BELIEVE it would take for this to become COMMON KNOWLEDGE: "The Americans are the Devil in the flesh"?

Now, once this is LEARNED. Once this has been FORCED against the 'people', how many generations do you think that it would take to UNLEARN it? MAYBE NEVER. For it would take the TRUTH being PROVEN to EACH and EVERY ONE of those that had been 'so programed' to EVER be ABLE to dispell such a teaching that was instituted in such a manner. For parents would QUICKLY start TEACHING THEIR CHILDREN what was ABLE to protect them. Thus, in JUST a couple of generations, there would be FEW left, if ANY, that would argue against those with the power to destroy them over WORDS.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[wavy]

Firstly you cannot have a theory that is a fact, because you then will have a factual theory :crazy Secondly the only real evidence there is, supports a creation and a flood. The evidence for a flood is enormous.

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about and you shouldn't attempt to speak on issues where you don't. Evolution is both a fact and a theory because it has been observed (facts are simple observations) and the theoretical facet of evolution explains a collection of facts; namely, evolution through natural selection over millions of years to explain the diversity of life we see today.

A 'theory' in science isn't just some wild guess backed by no evidence. By definition, a theory is a plausible explanation of known facts and evidence.

Lastly, there is no evidence for a flood. If there were, I'm sure scientists would have found it by now. It's peculiar that the only ones claiming there is 'evidence' for a flood' are Christian fundamentalists, who rarely have degrees in the relevant fields to make the 'scientific' claims they do. You need to wake up and realize this. And I doubt you've done any serious research into the topic aside from googling creationist pseudo-scientific nonsense. You don't even know what a theory is. My advice to you would be to study/read up on an issue before you audaciously waltz into threads and incur chagrin by exposing yourself to know nothing about that which you are speaking.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[XTruth]

This is a good educated and scientific quick study between the differences of evolution and creationism:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... een-proven


Best proof of creation
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... f-creation

Noah's flood
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... od-and-ark

It's just a great web-site that's probably been referenced already.
The 500 foot 5000 yr old wooden boat on top of a mountain where there are no trees or any oceans near kinda proves there was a flood.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

This is a good educated and scientific quick study between the differences of evolution and creationism:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... een-proven


Best proof of creation
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... f-creation

Noah's flood
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... od-and-ark

It's just a great web-site that's probably been referenced already.
The 500 foot 5000 yr old wooden boat on top of a mountain where there are no trees or any oceans near kinda proves there was a flood.

There has been no 5,000 yr old boat with the dimensions of Noah's ark found on top of any mountain.
That would certainly make world news.

 

[wavy]

This is a good educated and scientific quick study between the differences of evolution and creationism:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... een-proven


Best proof of creation
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... f-creation

Noah's flood
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... od-and-ark

It's just a great web-site that's probably been referenced already.
The 500 foot 5000 yr old wooden boat on top of a mountain where there are no trees or any oceans near kinda proves there was a flood.

[insert previous post to Cornelius here]


Thanks,
Eric

 

[XTruth]

This is a good educated and scientific quick study between the differences of evolution and creationism:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... een-proven


Best proof of creation
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... f-creation

Noah's flood
http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... od-and-ark

It's just a great web-site that's probably been referenced already.
The 500 foot 5000 yr old wooden boat on top of a mountain where there are no trees or any oceans near kinda proves there was a flood.

There has been no 5,000 yr old boat with the dimensions of Noah's ark found on top of any mountain.
That would certainly make world news.

Yeah, it would be the greatest archeological find ever. It has been found. Google or youtube "noah's ark found." It can only be seen certain times out of the year b/c of the ice and snow...it's elevation is very high. The government of the country it's located in won't allow expeditions there. It would give to much validity to the Jewish and Christian scriptures.

Believe me, don't, whatever you choose. I won't be offended either way.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Its not about believing you or not.

There has been no conclusive evidence for a ship with that dimensions found on top of a mountain, and dating back to that time.

There has been this or that found over the last hundred years, but most of it does not pan out upon a closer look.

There are many people who have the belief that Noah's Ark has been found, but it just hasn't.

If you have a site you would like to link for me, I would be interested in viewing it.

You may be thinking about some sat. photos from a mountain in Iran. I am pretty sure it is generally believed to be a rock.

 

[mondar]

Yeah, it would be the greatest archeological find ever. It has been found. Google or youtube "noah's ark found." It can only be seen certain times out of the year b/c of the ice and snow...it's elevation is very high. The government of the country it's located in won't allow expeditions there. It would give to much validity to the Jewish and Christian scriptures.

Believe me, don't, whatever you choose. I won't be offended either way.

I saw one of the scholars who worked on the Noah's ark project in Turkey. His name was Allen Macray. I am not sure of the spelling. He has been dead for about 30 years now. Allen Macray made statements that there were agreements that no one would publish until his studies were complete. Then the Turkish Government shut down his research before it was complete (as you hint at above). The information he had was used without his permission and published anyway. Macray, himself, denied that the evidence was conclusive enough to prove that the object in Turkey was actually the famed Noah's Ark. It could be Noah's Ark, but the people who did the study did not think the information was conclusive.

On the other hand, even if we assume that Noah's ark does not exist, that is totally meaningless to any theological conclusions. How many Egyptian Tyreme's are around? I do not know, but no doubt thousands are lost. Does this mean Egyptian Tyremes did not exist? In archaeology, few things in the ground have been preserved for the archaeologist's spade to dig up.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Very true. The fact that we do not find it, is in no way evidence it did not exist.

It would be a miracle for a wooden structure to survive that long.

 

[shutin45]

I do NOT believe in all the aspects of evolution, but believe SOME of them are right.

We did NOT evolve. We were created!!

I have noted with curiosity that God told the WATERS to bring forth animal life. The Bible said centuries ago what evolutionists have only determined in the past century.

Was it like a "magic" trick using the waters - and all the creatures floated up out of the waters and populated the earth - or did God do what evolution says happened - creatures started growing(?) in the waters, varied into different things, and then some came out onto land and started land animals.

I'm reminded of that every time I see frogs grow from eggs to tadpoles, to land based frogs!!

I just see perfection in some of the elements of evolution, but am saddened that they're used to "disprove" God. We still can't make something that adapts and gets better and reproduces. If creatures didn't have those traits, which I again see as Gods perfection, very little would be here now. The earth has gone through many changes that adaption enabled His creations to weather.

Just my thoughts and observations.

Bless you all.

Jim

 

[disciple_of_truth]

Imagican said:
But, since you choose to seek an ACTUAL line of scripture that states that God is NOT contained within the confines of time that HE created, I am unable to offer MUCH that would alter your perceptions.

That's not what I questioned you on.

You said, "HE created the 'illusion' of time and it is HIS to manipulate in whatever manner He chooses."

I said, "What Bible verse says that? --- Specifically, what Bible verse says God created the "illusion of time"?

Additionally, you continue to ignore the point that whenever there is a numerical adjective (such as one, second, third) attached to or associated with the word "Day" in Hebrew it always refers to a 24 hour period. (Genesis 1:5 "one day, 1:8 second day, 1:13 third day)