Is the Law God gave through Moses still in effect today???

[Sparkey]

A meal fit for a King.

We recall that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about tithing on cummin (Mt 23:23). What does the Old Testament say about Cummin?

For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working. (Isa 28:21-29)
______________________________________________

We are told specifically that the good husbandman (farmer) must seek the instruction of God.
It is his God that "doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him"
Fitches (fenel seed) are NOT threshed. We are NOT to hitch our donkey to our cart and CRUSH the cummin. Am I cummin? Are you?
Please read Isa 28:27 again, "fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod," and consider the Psalmist's statement, "thy rod and thy staff they do comfort me." The Lord Himself leads us besides still waters.

The LORD is my shepherd...
Yehôvâh is my râ‛âh (herdman)
yeh-ho-vaw' is my raw-aw'

We don't know yet what we will be but we shall be like Him! Am I in kernel form, a mere seed? Has the seed departed from its husk? Am I underground (joined in the death of Jesus) or have I sprouted and peeked out? Am I a sapling or a tree? All these analogies speak to the truth of what is happening in each of us even today. If we are part of the meal that God will consume, if we see that our brothers are also part of the same meal, shall we not strive together toward the goal of preparing ourselves for Him?

A change in voice - in tone:
I love my brothers who are "Warriors of God". My own heart is stirred when I see them "take up the sword of truth". We are admonished to put on the whole armor of God and I know this is exactly what my brothers are doing here. I love it when my sisters speak out the pure milk of the truth in kindness. When I read the Song of Solomon and hear her say, "my breasts are like towers" and then later turn my consideration to her "little sister" who has no breast, what shall she do when her time comes? - I do understand that this is part of the conversation that flows between Christ and His Bride (the Church).

Analogies are wonderful things. It's like we are given a chance to dial out our microscopes -- and turn them into telescopes. We can see the broad picture. Is silver equal to Knowledge? Are the cedars of Lebanon equal to Righteousness? Do we have knowledge? Have we been trained in Righteousness? Have we been transplanted into the Garden of God with His hand over us? I thank God for this and see it clearly in these forums. Further I see this in the admonishment that Christ gave to the Jewish leaders. To "change their microscopes into telescopes," so to speak.

If Jesus is what he says he is - the Mana from heaven - if he is the bread that our Father has given us - to consume together, to prepare within each other, then we need to be conscience of what we are doing. The servant of the house is tasked to do certain things - but he receives only orders and not explanations. What we are doing is wondering "WHY?" and peering into things for to increase our understanding. The Son of the house knows what the Master is doing. He understands the will of his father. We are given the authority to become Sons -- and I personally believe that we can not do this alone.

Prepare me well, those who speak the Word, for I desire to be eaten of God and for Him to declare me (the prayers of my heart) a "sweet odor unto Him". I know that I am praying according to His will because I am praying for each of you.

Who declares in the Song of Solomon, "I will rise up to Him - the daughters will see this."
Son 2:13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

When will we as saints see this truth - that this is the time that is prophesied of by the Miracle of the Wedding of Caanan? It was the very first miracle performed, yes?? I have declared the end from the beginning, saith the Lord. The next thing we see is what happened to the Tree that put forth its leaves but had no fruit. That tree was cursed.

totopic But still and back to topic - Jesus used the water that had been set aside for "ritual washings" to make their JOY complete at the wedding feast --- He changed that "hand-washing water" into wine! Let us therefore have fruit in ourselves, that we may be Healed by our Good Physician. Healed in our speech together - reminded that religion is useless for those who do not bridle their tongues (James)

~Sparrow

For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. (in us! even here, even now)

 

[follower of Christ]

No, the Matthew account clearly shows that Mark 14, 15 refers back to verse 5: "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

Sorry but there are very good distinctions between the passages. Similar concepts dont mean its the same exact discussion.
And you can ramble on about handwashing all you care to friend...handwashing has NOTHING to do with taking something INTO our bodies which is what JESUS mentions...like it or not.

The desperation here is quite obvious...

 

[follower of Christ]

I also find it odd that we're ignoring more evidence that I gave earlier...any reason ?

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed principalities and powers, He mocked them in public, triumphing over them in it.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or of a new moon or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.
(Colossians 2:13-17 EMTV)



Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you,....
Since they were complete in Christ, had everything in him, were circumcised in him; and particularly since the handwriting of the law was blotted out, and torn to pieces through the nails of the cross of Christ, the apostle's conclusion is, that they should be judged by no man; they should not regard or submit to any man's judgment, as to the observance of the ceremonial law: Christ is the prophet who was to be raised up like unto Moses, and who only, and not Moses, is to be heard; saints are to call no man master upon earth but him; they are not to be the servants of men, nor should suffer any yoke of bondage to be imposed upon them; and should they be suffered and condemned by others, as if they were transgressors of the law, and their state bad, for not observing the rituals of the former dispensation, they should not regard such censures, for the judaizing Christians were very censorious, they were ready to look upon and condemn a man as an immoral man, as in a state of damnation, if he did not keep the law of Moses; but such rigid censures were to be disregarded, "let no man judge", or "condemn you"; and though they could not help or hinder the judgment and condemnation of men, yet they could despise them, and not be uneasy with them, but set light by them, as they ought to do. The Syriac version renders it, נדודכון, "let no man trouble you", or make you uneasy, by imposing ceremonies on you: the sense is, that the apostle would not have them submit to the yoke they would lay upon them, nor be terrified by their anathemas against them, for the non-observation of the things that follow:


in meat or in drink;
or on account of not observing the laws and rules about meats and drinks, in the law of Moses; such as related to the difference between clean and unclean creatures, to abstinence in Nazarites from wine and strong drink, and which forbid drinking out of an uncovered vessel, and which was not clean; hence the washing of cups, &c. religiously observed by the Pharisees.
There was no distinction of meats and drinks before the law, but all sorts of herbs and animals, without limitation, were given to be food for men; by the ceremonial law a difference was made between them, some were allowed, and others were forbidden; which law stood only in meats and drinks, and such like things, but is now abolished; for the kingdom of God, or the Gospel dispensation, does not lie in the observance of such outward things, but in internal ones, in righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost; it is not any thing that goes into the man that defiles, nor is anything in its own nature common or unclean, but every creature of God is good, so be it, it be used in moderation and with thankfulness:
-John Gill

I DONt let anyone judge me concerning foods, as Paul declares. I'll eat whatever I feel to eat and KNOW that I am FREE to do so...






.

 

[Sparkey]

Wow! You are not anathema (accursed - kicked out, disfellowshipped). I would bless you and ask the Lord's blessing on your food without hesitation.

~Sparrow
I am still not going to eat worms.

 

[follower of Christ]

Wow! You are not anathema (accursed - kicked out, disfellowshipped). I would bless you and ask the Lord's blessing on your food without hesitation.

~Sparrow
I am still not going to eat worms.

Worms are pretty disgusting ;)

 

[Sparkey]

I hope that you can see that even though I am not Jewish by blood (as far as I know) I am indeed following Paul's admonition that I should not place any restriction on you (presuming that you are a Gentile Christian), right?

I have not said that you should not eat pork and have not asked if you were circumcised. I assume that you do eat pork but since you've never said this directly and I've never asked it is only a presumption on my part and frankly, "Do we care?" I can't remember the last time that I mentioned anything about my dietary HABITS (they aren't law to me any more than they are to you) but it was part of the subject and I don't see that I need to be ashamed either. It's a moot point.

I hope this view (of mine) establishes in a conclusive way that what is said in the book of Acts by Paul is not relevant to the conversation. Saying that Jews should not seek to bring Gentiles under the bondage of the law is not the same thing as overturning the law. Paul didn't command me, you don't command me, nobody commands me to eat worms (or pork or clams or human flesh, for that matter).

Okay, I'll try to turn your argument against myself here. Why not? Let's find an example (other than meats) where it's okay for some and not okay for others. If I were an old fashioned person and you were a modern person -- and we were talking about uni-sex bathrooms -- you could tell me that it is no longer illegal for people of both genders to enter the same bathroom.

I could say, "Eeeewwww! That's disgusting!" and absolutely refuse to do it, legal or not. The fact that I refuse to enter has nothing to do with your liberty. Do as you like. You are only prohibited from eating strangled, or fornication, or --- well you know the rest.

Get my point? The argument about Paul's statements in Acts is moot. I shouldn't have brought up Peter but since I did - I know in my heart that three times Peter was told, "Rise, kill and eat." and I also know that three times he said, "Not so, Lord..." That is directly stated in scripture. The conclusion that God "cleaned" worms and the other meats that were on the sheet can only be drawn from Peter (not from you or from me). He was the only person to whom the vision was given. What was his conclusion? He said to Cornelius that God has shown him. What? What did Peter (who was uniquely qualified to interpret the vision) say he was shown? Did he say it would be okay for him to sit down to porkchops and other meats? Is that what Peter said? Sorry for this type of (it's almost patronizing) argument but it's difficult to sound to the outside what I feel in the inside - I know, I'll smile as I type. Hope it comes through.

Peter said that God has shown him that he was not to consider Gentiles koinos or akathartos. God said that what He katharizÃ…Â (cleansed / purified / purged) thou shall not call koinoÃ…Â (common / defiled / polluted / unclean).

Peter actually quoted God when he was later speaking in Acts, "but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean (koinos or akathartos)." Again, when explaining the vision Peter said that he was told not to call any man common / defiled / polluted / unclean. Peter understood the admonitions and teachings of The Messiah, The Christ (The Anointed of God) in Matt 7 and Mark 15. He was there. He personally asked Jesus about what he thought was "a parable" at the time. He did not say, as the Pharisees were fond of saying, "I am more separate than thou - step aside." He did not call any man unclean or common or defiled.

Now, let's not stop here ---- big things to come. God backed up what Peter said and poured out his Spirit. They were baptized in the Spirit before they were baptized in water. How did Peter know? He heard them speaking in tongues and said to his fellow Jews back in Jerusalem that they were filled "like as we".

Peter knew that God wasn't doing any little thing like letting Gentiles eat unclean meats. He was throwing open the doors of the whole kingdom to the Gentiles. That's how we (the branch of Goyim) got grafted into the tree! Paul later followed the Holy Spirit also and said that the traditions and Jewish customs of the law were not to be pushed onto the Gentiles. None of this "overturns" the law. It only demonstrates the Goodness of God!

There is such a rich history of man breaking the covenant and God being merciful throughout the time of God's covenant with Israel. God and man make an agreement. The Lord keeps his part. Man breaks the covenant. God then has the right to say --- the whole agreement is broken because no agreement is binding if it is not binding on both parties. The breach of the covenant is always on our part. God consistently (maybe always? I'd have to prove this before I said it, but maybe always) takes more on Himself and modifies the agreement to our benefit. This mercy is again seen when Jesus is sent to the Jews - they reject Him and we are the beneficiary. This doesn't mean that Jews have to go try to get uncircumcised or start offering the blood sacrifices again - God declared he wanted the sacrifice of praise and that we were all to be circumcised in the heart. There is no longer Jew nor Gentile. There is One Church, One Body, One Spirit, One Faith and One Savior, the Messiah sent of God -- Christ Jesus our Lord.

If then the work of the Holy Spirit is one of uniting us to each other why then do we kick against the pricks? The goading of the Holy Spirit is one and the same in each of us. Let us toss away silly arguments (that are moot anyway) and continue together to worship our Good and Merciful Father-God.

What is the second commandment? Love our neighbor / brother as we love ourselves. Who is our neighbor? You already know. It's me. Worms and all. :yes

Yours in Christ,
~Sparrowhawke

 

[sheshisown]

And me~ worms and all my brothers dear~

Unity = Humility Humanity=Divinity ...

Sorry... I have been reading along... :

 

[whirlwind]

A meal fit for a King.

We recall that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about tithing on cummin (Mt 23:23). What does the Old Testament say about Cummin?

For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working. (Isa 28:21-29)
______________________________________________

We are told specifically that the good husbandman (farmer) must seek the instruction of God.
It is his God that "doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him"
Fitches (fenel seed) are NOT threshed. We are NOT to hitch our donkey to our cart and CRUSH the cummin. Am I cummin? Are you?
Please read Isa 28:27 again, "fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod," and consider the Psalmist's statement, "thy rod and thy staff they do comfort me." The Lord Himself leads us besides still waters.

The LORD is my shepherd...
Yehôvâh is my râ‛âh (herdman)
yeh-ho-vaw' is my raw-aw'

We don't know yet what we will be but we shall be like Him! Am I in kernel form, a mere seed? Has the seed departed from its husk? Am I underground (joined in the death of Jesus) or have I sprouted and peeked out? Am I a sapling or a tree? All these analogies speak to the truth of what is happening in each of us even today. If we are part of the meal that God will consume, if we see that our brothers are also part of the same meal, shall we not strive together toward the goal of preparing ourselves for Him?

A change in voice - in tone:
I love my brothers who are "Warriors of God". My own heart is stirred when I see them "take up the sword of truth". We are admonished to put on the whole armor of God and I know this is exactly what my brothers are doing here. I love it when my sisters speak out the pure milk of the truth in kindness. When I read the Song of Solomon and hear her say, "my breasts are like towers" and then later turn my consideration to her "little sister" who has no breast, what shall she do when her time comes? - I do understand that this is part of the conversation that flows between Christ and His Bride (the Church).

Analogies are wonderful things. It's like we are given a chance to dial out our microscopes -- and turn them into telescopes. We can see the broad picture. Is silver equal to Knowledge? Are the cedars of Lebanon equal to Righteousness? Do we have knowledge? Have we been trained in Righteousness? Have we been transplanted into the Garden of God with His hand over us? I thank God for this and see it clearly in these forums. Further I see this in the admonishment that Christ gave to the Jewish leaders. To "change their microscopes into telescopes," so to speak.

If Jesus is what he says he is - the Mana from heaven - if he is the bread that our Father has given us - to consume together, to prepare within each other, then we need to be conscience of what we are doing. The servant of the house is tasked to do certain things - but he receives only orders and not explanations. What we are doing is wondering "WHY?" and peering into things for to increase our understanding. The Son of the house knows what the Master is doing. He understands the will of his father. We are given the authority to become Sons -- and I personally believe that we can not do this alone.

Prepare me well, those who speak the Word, for I desire to be eaten of God and for Him to declare me (the prayers of my heart) a "sweet odor unto Him". I know that I am praying according to His will because I am praying for each of you.

Who declares in the Song of Solomon, "I will rise up to Him - the daughters will see this."
Son 2:13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

When will we as saints see this truth - that this is the time that is prophesied of by the Miracle of the Wedding of Caanan? It was the very first miracle performed, yes?? I have declared the end from the beginning, saith the Lord. The next thing we see is what happened to the Tree that put forth its leaves but had no fruit. That tree was cursed.

totopic But still and back to topic - Jesus used the water that had been set aside for "ritual washings" to make their JOY complete at the wedding feast --- He changed that "hand-washing water" into wine! Let us therefore have fruit in ourselves, that we may be Healed by our Good Physician. Healed in our speech together - reminded that religion is useless for those who do not bridle their tongues (James)

~Sparrow

For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. (in us! even here, even now)

What some term "ramblings" are music to another's ears. :headphones From a Nana to a Granddad....very well written and :amen

Romans 14:1-3 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Health laws are not about our salvation. Do I believe they have been abolished? No. I believe they are still in force and choose to follow them. But, I do not judge those that choose differently for "God hath received" both of us.

 

[Drew]

I will need to put on my hard hat (my hard-headedness) if you don't wish to understand me. Are you trying to say that Jesus was a sinner?

Of course not. As God, Jesus has the right to say "the time of Torah has come to an end". And that is precisley what he does at various points in his public life.

Did Jesus speak to the Pharisees about the 5th commandment in Matthew 15? If he summarily abolished or dismissed or overturned the law - why did he mention honoring their father and mother - why did he cite the law when he said the word "death"? He skipped over the "promise" that honoring their father and mother would prolong their life - why?

Please take pains when you explain in length why our Lord abolished the 5th commandment and denied the Promise. Use the word "clearly" as often as you wish.

Jesus is indeed critiquing the Pharisees in respect to violating Torah. But that does not mean that He is not, in the course of His ministry, declaring the imminent end to Torah. Jesus is looking back at the conduct of the Pharisees in the age when Torah was indeed in force. Let's be clear, there is no logical inconsistency with Jesus criticizing the Pharisees for distorting Torah and then going on to abolish the Torah. The Torah has served its purpose and is coming to an end. But that does not mean that there are not grounds to criticize the Pharisees for their disobedience to Torah when it was in force.

And I do not know why Jesus does not mention the promise. But, unless you can explain how, the absence of such an explanation is not an item of evidence againsy the assertion that Jesus is abolishing Torah.

 

[Drew]

Verse 15 is a reference to the disciples' eating with unwashed hands. One is not defiled by eating without washing or even by eating prohibited foods.

Do you realize what you are saying? You appear to now accept that the Levitical food laws are overturned. The Levitical food laws said that one become unclean by eating certain foods - do I need to reproduce the relevant texts? You are now saying that Jesus is saying the opposite- that one is not defiled (that is, made unclean) by eating the prohibited foods.

If you agree that Jesus is saying that the prohibited foods do not make you unclean (defile you), how are you not agreeing with those of us who say that He has overturned those laws?

 

[Drew]

The defiling is not in the eating. It springs from the heart. The dietary law is not rescinded here.

I agree, but this constitutes an overturning of the Levitical food laws which clearly assert that it is indeed the eating that makes you unclean:

'Nevertheless, (B)you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you. 5'Likewise, the shaphan, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 6the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 7and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you. 8'You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.

I trust you are not going to "spiritualize away" the clear prescriptions here - the act of eating(and even touching) these items does indeed make you unclean - defiles you.

 

[follower of Christ]

I hope that you can see that even though I am not Jewish by blood (as far as I know) I am indeed following Paul's admonition that I should not place any restriction on you (presuming that you are a Gentile Christian), right?

Honestly, and I mean no offense, Ive been having a VERY hard time pinning down what it is you are saying overall

I have not said that you should not eat pork and have not asked if you were circumcised. I assume that you do eat pork but since you've never said this directly and I've never asked it is only a presumption on my part and frankly, "Do we care?" I can't remember the last time that I mentioned anything about my dietary HABITS (they aren't law to me any more than they are to you) but it was part of the subject and I don't see that I need to be ashamed either. It's a moot point.

Ill eat pork over beef any day with the cost and the fact that well prepared pork is MUCH better for us.
Any meat poses certain risks if not prepared right so the moot point is in saying that pork is 'bad' for us or something similar

I hope this view (of mine) establishes in a conclusive way that what is said in the book of Acts by Paul is not relevant to the conversation. Saying that Jews should not seek to bring Gentiles under the bondage of the law is not the same thing as overturning the law. Paul didn't command me, you don't command me, nobody commands me to eat worms (or pork or clams or human flesh, for that matter).

No, what Paul said was was to not let anyone judge me in the matter...ie I am FREE to eat what I choose to eat. I choose to eat pork

Okay, I'll try to turn your argument against myself here. Why not? Let's find an example (other than meats) where it's okay for some and not okay for others. If I were an old fashioned person and you were a modern person -- and we were talking about uni-sex bathrooms -- you could tell me that it is no longer illegal for people of both genders to enter the same bathroom.
I could say, "Eeeewwww! That's disgusting!" and absolutely refuse to do it, legal or not. The fact that I refuse to enter has nothing to do with your liberty. Do as you like. You are only prohibited from eating strangled, or fornication, or --- well you know the rest.

Come on now...the scripture teaches modesty and not tempting each other sexually. Co-ed bathrooms are covered by the spirit of the law.

Get my point?

I get your intent, I dont not agree with your conclusions tho.
One thing MAY be sinful and another may not. We use the spirit of the law where it does not contain an expressed prohibition or permission.
The good thing about foods tho is that we DO have VERY clear expressed instruction about foods no longer being 'unclean'...either in allegory/metaphor in Peter, or dealing directly with the issue itself in passages like Colossians 2:13-17.

The argument about Paul's statements in Acts is moot. I shouldn't have brought up Peter but since I did - I know in my heart that three times Peter was told, "Rise, kill and eat." and I also know that three times he said, "Not so, Lord..." That is directly stated in scripture. The conclusion that God "cleaned" worms and the other meats that were on the sheet can only be drawn from Peter (not from you or from me). He was the only person to whom the vision was given. What was his conclusion? He said to Cornelius that God has shown him. What? What did Peter (who was uniquely qualified to interpret the vision) say he was shown? Did he say it would be okay for him to sit down to porkchops and other meats? Is that what Peter said? Sorry for this type of (it's almost patronizing) argument but it's difficult to sound to the outside what I feel in the inside - I know, I'll smile as I type. Hope it comes through.

So an allegorical vision containing truths is used to teach other truths....I dont see the problem.
Meats are no longer and issue and as Peter found out, neither is race (people groups as I call them).

Peter said that God has shown him that he was not to consider Gentiles koinos or akathartos. God said that what He katharizÃ…Â (cleansed / purified / purged) thou shall not call koinoÃ…Â (common / defiled / polluted / unclean).

Peter actually quoted God when he was later speaking in Acts, "but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean (koinos or akathartos)." Again, when explaining the vision Peter said that he was told not to call any man common / defiled / polluted / unclean. Peter understood the admonitions and teachings of The Messiah, The Christ (The Anointed of God) in Matt 7 and Mark 15. He was there. He personally asked Jesus about what he thought was "a parable" at the time. He did not say, as the Pharisees were fond of saying, "I am more separate than thou - step aside." He did not call any man unclean or common or defiled.

Again;
So an allegorical vision containing truths is used to teach other truths....I dont see the problem.
Meats are no longer and issue and as Peter found out, neither is race (people groups as I call them).

Peter knew that God wasn't doing any little thing like letting Gentiles eat unclean meats. He was throwing open the doors of the whole kingdom to the Gentiles. That's how we (the branch of Goyim) got grafted into the tree! Paul later followed the Holy Spirit also and said that the traditions and Jewish customs of the law were not to be pushed onto the Gentiles. None of this "overturns" the law. It only demonstrates the Goodness of God!

Thats all well and good and *IF* there were NO other scriptures showing that the contents of this vision were VERY Accurate...that meats are no longer 'unclean' then you may have some semblance of a point.
Scripture is clear...

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed principalities and powers, He mocked them in public, triumphing over them in it.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or of a new moon or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.
(Colossians 2:13-17 EMTV)

There is no getting around that fact...


God bless

 

[follower of Christ]

Health laws are not about our salvation. Do I believe they have been abolished? No. I believe they are still in force and choose to follow them. But, I do not judge those that choose differently for "God hath received" both of us.

Paul clearly disagrees....

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed principalities and powers, He mocked them in public, triumphing over them in it.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or of a new moon or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.
(Colossians 2:13-17 EMTV)

lou11 wrote:The defiling is not in the eating. It springs from the heart. The dietary law is not rescinded here.

It certainly IS in the passage above AND in Jesus words that NOTHING we take into our bodies defiles it.
Your continued rejection of common sense in the matter is inconsequential, Im afraid. The scriptures teach what they teach and there is no way around that fact.

Now for you, because you are so convinced and CANNOT eat freely in faith...for YOU it IS a sin to eat meats prohibited by law...but it is ONLY because you cannot do so in faith KNOWING that you have freedom in Christ Jesus....


.

 

[Drew]

No, the Matthew account clearly shows that Mark 14, 15 refers back to verse 5: "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

I do not agree with your logic. You seem to think that, despite what Jesus clearly says in verse 11 of the Matthew account: "What defiles a person is not what goes into the mouth", he is only denying that eating with unwashed hands defile a person because of what he says in verse 20: "are the things that defile a person; it is not eating with unwashed hands that defiles a person"

Here is what is really going on:

1. The issue of the Torah and its status is introduced through the specific issue of handwashing;

2. Jesus critiques the Pharisees for adding man-made rules onto Torah (note how this does not constitute an implicit commitment to the eternality of Torah).

3. Jesus then broadens the issue and clearly, and I must insist that you simply sweep this under the rug, asserts that no foods defile you. One would have to deliberately distort what Jesus is saying to think otherwise. No clear-thinking person would read "what defiles a person is not what goes into his mouth" and understand that to mean that, actually all the prohibited foods from the Levitical food laws still do make a man unclean.

4. Jesus then explains that it is not the things that go into the mouth that defile – it is the things that come out that defile.

5. So naturally enough, Jesus returns to the initial matter of the handwashing to assert that not washing your hands make you unclean.

6. Why anyone thinks this magically over-rules his clear declaration that no food defiles is a mystery to me.

 

[follower of Christ]

Romans 14:1-3 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

posting the part you omitted...

I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean of itself; except to him considering anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
But if your brother is grieved on account of your food, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food the one on behalf of whom Christ died. Therefore do not let your good be slandered. For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
(Romans 14:14-17 EMTV)

PAUL, when talking about FOODs (ie meats since THAT was what WAS 'unclean' under the law), says VERY clearly that NOTHING is unclean....NOTHING.
And AGAIN the TOPIC there very clearly is FOODS...(For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking...Romans 14:17 ).

In PERFECT harmony with Pauls words elsewhere AND with Jesus Christs we see that NO food is unclean any longer...that we have freedom in Christ Jesus to eat ANY food we wish to eat.
Only for those who CONSIDER the food to be unclean is it actually unclean...and that is entirely because of their weakness of faith as shown earlier in the chapter.

 

[follower of Christ]

I do not agree with your logic. You seem to think that, despite what Jesus clearly says in verse 11 of the Matthew account: "What defiles a person is not what goes into the mouth", he is only denying that eating with unwashed hands defile a person because of what he says in verse 20: "are the things that defile a person; it is not eating with unwashed hands that defiles a person"

There certainly does seem to be a veil over the eyes or an agenda at work there.
Continually repeating what we KNOW already...that eating with unwashed hands doesnt make a man unclean....DOESNT nullify that Jesus ALSO shows that no food we take into our bodies defiles us.
Its almost like some have those blinders on that they put on horses so they cant see anything but what they want to see.

:crazy

 

[whirlwind]

Romans 14:1-3 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

posting the part you omitted...

I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean of itself; except to him considering anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
But if your brother is grieved on account of your food, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food the one on behalf of whom Christ died. Therefore do not let your good be slandered. For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
(Romans 14:14-17 EMTV)

PAUL, when talking about FOODs (ie meats since THAT was what WAS 'unclean' under the law), says VERY clearly that NOTHING is unclean....NOTHING.
And AGAIN the TOPIC there very clearly is FOODS...(For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking...Romans 14:17 ).

Actually....I was very careful to quote vs. 17.

In PERFECT harmony with Pauls words elsewhere AND with Jesus Christs we see that NO food is unclean any longer...that we have freedom in Christ Jesus to eat ANY food we wish to eat.
Only for those who CONSIDER the food to be unclean is it actually unclean...and that is entirely because of their weakness of faith as shown earlier in the chapter.

Ah....well that's certainly not judging anyone.

My faith is very strong. I have faith that His written Word, in a very detailed manner, told me what was good for my flesh body. I believe Him.

 

[follower of Christ]

My faith is very strong. I have faith that His written Word, in a very detailed manner, told me what was good for my flesh body. I believe Him.

really ?
Im sorry...where again does it say 'pork is BAD for you' ?
Where does it SAY 'FISH is GOOD for you'
I think I missed those parts.
Are you sure you arent making it up ?

And *IF* you actually had faith in His written word you wouldnt keep pretending like we are under food prohibition in this covenant when we VERY clearly are not ;

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed principalities and powers, He mocked them in public, triumphing over them in it.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or of a new moon or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.
(Colossians 2:13-17 EMTV)


I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean of itself; except to him considering anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
But if your brother is grieved on account of your food, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food the one on behalf of whom Christ died. Therefore do not let your good be slandered. For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
(Romans 14:14-17 EMTV)

.

 

[Drew]

Get my point? The argument about Paul's statements in Acts is moot. I shouldn't have brought up Peter but since I did - I know in my heart that three times Peter was told, "Rise, kill and eat." and I also know that three times he said, "Not so, Lord..." That is directly stated in scripture. The conclusion that God "cleaned" worms and the other meats that were on the sheet can only be drawn from Peter (not from you or from me). He was the only person to whom the vision was given. What was his conclusion? He said to Cornelius that God has shown him. What? What did Peter (who was uniquely qualified to interpret the vision) say he was shown? Did he say it would be okay for him to sit down to porkchops and other meats? Is that what Peter said? Sorry for this type of (it's almost patronizing) argument but it's difficult to sound to the outside what I feel in the inside - I know, I'll smile as I type. Hope it comes through.

Peter said that God has shown him that he was not to consider Gentiles koinos or akathartos. God said that what He katharizÃ…Â (cleansed / purified / purged) thou shall not call koinoÃ…Â (common / defiled / polluted / unclean).

This has been clearly and extensively dealt with already. The fact that the overall intent of the vision is to get Peter to see Gentiles as clean does not mean that, as part of the God choses to make this clear to Peter, Peter is not also told that all foods are clean.

In fact, as already argued in more detail, the declaration that all foods are clean is the perfect means to make it clear to Peter that the Gentiles are clean. This is because the Jew would consider that the Gentile is unclean precisely because the Gentile would eat foods that the Jew would consider unclean for a human to eat.

Again, dear reader, do not be fooled by bad logic. Do not fall for this argument:

1. God’s message to Peter was that Gentile are clean;
2. Therefore, God could not have been declaring all foods to be clean

Do I really need to explain this? Well, consider this analogy. Suppose that Canadians think that Americans are unclean because they drink Budweiser beer. Now suppose that somebody wanted to convince a certain Canadian – let’s call him Drew – that Americans are actually clean.

The ideal way to do this is to make the case that Budweiser beer does not defile the person who drinks. Has the point been made that Americans are clean? Clearly it has. How was the point made? By asserting that the very thing deemed to defile Americans is not inherently defiling. Note that there is no “rule†that, in the course of making the point that Americans are clean, the case cannot also be made that Budweiser beer is clean.

In fact, the declaration that Budweiser beer is clean is the heart of the argument that Canadians should see Americans as clean. I trust the analogy is clear.

 

[whirlwind]

My faith is very strong. I have faith that His written Word, in a very detailed manner, told me what was good for my flesh body. I believe Him.

really ?
Im sorry...where again does it say 'pork is BAD for you' ?
Where does it SAY 'FISH is GOOD for you'
I think I missed those parts.
Are you sure you arent making it up ?

Isaiah 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

I don't know....what does that mean to you? If you believe He created "abominable things" for us to consume then be happy. Or, if you believe those same "abominable things" suddenly became wholesome and wonderful then...that's okay too. Now, I will again say...the deeper and most important lesson here is spiritually taking in the foul meat of false doctrine but the foods on the do-not-eat list were not created to be received. They are scavengers. Do they taste terrific? Yes...they do....did.