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Is the rapture Biblical?

follower of Christ said:
Solo, fantastic posts.

I used to be pretrib before I actually broke into the scriptures and saw the evidence for myself.
In all actuality there isnt any real support for a pretrib rapture, but I think we fear it so much that we want to see one.

I generally avoid the topic, but I think its time to finally do a study about the Day of the Lord for my studies site.
Thank you follower of Christ. I had not learned anything concerning the coming of Christ except what I read in the Scriptures. The "secret pretribulation rapture" never did fit in with what the Scriptures had to say. The pretribulation teachings have changed bit by bit depending on who is debating it, and what story they prefer to use to push it. There really is not one bit of Scripture that points to a secret pretribulation rapture. Daniel does not even speak of a seven year tribulation period, he speaks of three and one half years of persecution upon the elect.

Many in the west hold to the pretribulation rapture because they are afraid of going through terrible persecution. The Scriptures say that believers will be persecuted and go through tribulation; but they will not go through the wrath of God. That is all I need to know, and fearing anything else other than God is of the devil.
 
You guys are forgetting one thing. Noone knows the season of the Rapture. If it was mid or post, then we would know the season.
 
david_james said:
You guys are forgetting one thing. Noone knows the season of the Rapture. If it was mid or post, then we would know the season.
  • 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Matthew 24:32-34

  • 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
 
How many of those arguing about it will have their lamps full?

Perhaps that is the question, and I would suggest, very few. It is unfortunate how we confuse being right with being righteous.

Meanwhile the world and new Christians are turned off or fall away. Opinions are fine. An obsession with proving oneself right about the time of the rapture would indicate one is not much concerned with the things of God.
 
you are right, timing isn't important, being prepared is.
 
david_james said:
That is the Glorious Appearing, not the Rapture
I am still waiting for one single post that shows the "secret rapture" in the Scriptures.
 
Dave Slayer said:
[quote="david_james":2aetshh1]The Rapture will be before tribulation.

But will it happen as it is portrayed in this video?[/quote:2aetshh1]

I think it will appear to those who do not know the Lord Jesus Christ much like the video represents.


There is no promise that we will escape the entire Tribulation period. There are overlaps. Tribulation appears to be coming upon us shortly by certain signs, but will Jesus come before? Hardly before! Tribulation isn't NOT here one day and then here the next. it is a gradual oppression that will come upon us and appears to be beginning or ready to begin right now---Jesus will remove us at some point, but we will have recognized the signs of the times by the time of that glorious event, because we will have lived in it.
 
radorth said:
How many of those arguing about it will have their lamps full?

Perhaps that is the question, and I would suggest, very few. It is unfortunate how we confuse being right with being righteous.

Meanwhile the world and new Christians are turned off or fall away. Opinions are fine. An obsession with proving oneself right about the time of the rapture would indicate one is not much concerned with the things of God.
Our lamps were filled when we accepted God's gracious gift of faith leading us to salvation. Let Him fill that lamp for you. :amen Unlike man, God does not leave a work unfinished.

Timing is important, in a sense. You could conceivably be arrested and thrown into jail with real criminals one day just for talking to someone about Jesus, God and the Bible... how are you prepared to deal with that? Just a rhetorical question that each any everyone in this day and age should be asking ourselves... and God.
 
The scriptures do not teach that there will be any kind of rapture. I know this is going to come across as patronizing, but the reason that the rapture idea has any leverage is that people are not as knowledgeable of their Bibles as they need to be to understand the 1 Thess 4 text.

The Second Coming is real – Jesus will indeed come back and take His place in God’s renewed creation. But there will be no rapture. To understand the true Biblical picture, one must have the correct model for how reality is constituted. Heaven is not “up there somewhere†– it is not a “place†in what we see around us as physical reality. Therefore, there is no sense at all to a picture where people are “snatched up†to go off to heaven. That image appeals to an entirely incorrect way about thinking about “where†Heaven is.

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a metaphorical rendering of what he says in two other passages: 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Phillipians 3:20-21. Here is the 1 Corinthians passage:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Now here is the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Clearly the the same scenario is being described in both texts – unless the dead in Christ will be raised twice. Note the structural parallels (this has already been pointed out in an earlier post).

1. Both accounts have a trumpet sounding.

2. Both accounts have the dead being raised.

3. The 1 Corinthians account has those alive at the time being transformed, while the 1 Thess account has them snatched up in the air.

I suggest that it is clear that only one thing can be happening to those who are alive at the time of Jesus’ return. And I suggest that the 1 Corinthians texts is a literal description – those alive are transformed, while the 1 Thess text is really saying the same thing, but in a highly metaphorical fashion. So no one is really being snatched away.

Note how the Phillipians text endorses the 1 Corinthians text in respect to what actually happens to those alive at the time of Jesus’ return – they are transformed, not snatched away:

20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body

Both the 1 Corinthians and the Phillipians texts are asserting that those who are alive at Jesus’ appearing will be changed or transformed so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but he uses poetic imagery, from biblical and political sources, to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain (echoed in the 1 Thess text by “himself will come down from heavenâ€Â) with the Torah. The trumpet sounds (just as in the 1 Thess text), a loud voice is heard (echoed by the voice of the archangel in the 1 Thess text), and after a long wait, Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence (echoing, of course, Jesus’ return to Earth in 1 Thess 4 after a long absence).

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High†are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. Of course, in the New Testament version, this vindication is the resurrection of the dead and the transformation of the living.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city – that is how you greeted an emperor in the culture in which Paul is writing. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air†should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

I am not making this stuff up. The allusions are clear and scriptural. Paul knows his Bible and is drawing on these images to construct an exceedingly rich metaphor for the transformation of the living at Jesus’ return.

Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.
 
Solo said:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

The statement by Jesus about "the son of man coming on the clouds" is an allusion to Daniel 7. It is important to read such sayings in their proper Biblical context. What is the corresponding material in Daniel 7 about? It is about the vindication of Jesus after suffering, not His return.

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

And in Daniel 7, note the directionality - the ‘coming’ is toward, rather than from heaven. Jesus is not talking about a rapture when He returns - He is talking about his own vindication over his enemies and his ascent from earth to heaven, not the other way around.
 
when Rapture comes, we will be taken to Heaven by Jesus
 
Drew said:
Solo said:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

The statement by Jesus about "the son of man coming on the clouds" is an allusion to Daniel 7. It is important to read such sayings in their proper Biblical context. What is the corresponding material in Daniel 7 about? It is about the vindication of Jesus after suffering, not His return.

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

And in Daniel 7, note the directionality - the ‘coming’ is toward, rather than from heaven. Jesus is not talking about a rapture when He returns - He is talking about his own vindication over his enemies and his ascent from earth to heaven, not the other way around.
Try opening up both eyes when you read the Scriptures, and you might attempt to rely on the Holy Spirit's interpretation instead of some wacky author that you have been reading. In the northern United States they label your assertion, "Goofy"!
 
Solo said:
Try opening up both eyes when you read the Scriptures, and you might attempt to rely on the Holy Spirit's interpretation instead of some wacky author that you have been reading. In the northern United States they label your assertion, "Goofy"!
You never change, Solo - you still are engaging in the old tired rhetoric that you did in the past. My argument is what it is. Please, engage its content if you like. But this statement of yours does not advance the discussion at all.

Will my consulting the Holy Spririt change the fact that Jesus is using a phrase from Daniel 7? I doubt it. Jesus knows what He is doing - He knows the scriptures. He uses the Daniel 7 allusion for a reason. I hope to argue in more detail about how the Daniel 7 material is about the son of man being vindicated. This endorses the view that the "son of man coming" reference in Matthew is not a reference to the second coming, but to Jesus' vindication over his enemies.

And no doubt, you will simply dismiss those arguments without actually engaging them. Plus ca change.....
 
Drew said:
Solo said:
Try opening up both eyes when you read the Scriptures, and you might attempt to rely on the Holy Spirit's interpretation instead of some wacky author that you have been reading. In the northern United States they label your assertion, "Goofy"!
You never change, Solo - you still are engaging in the old tired rhetoric that you did in the past. My argument is what it is. Please, engage its content if you like. But this statement of yours does not advance the discussion at all.

Will my consulting the Holy Spririt change the fact that Jesus is using a phrase from Daniel 7? I doubt it. Jesus knows what He is doing - He knows the scriptures. He uses the Daniel 7 allusion for a reason. I hope to argue in more detail about how the Daniel 7 material is about the son of man being vindicated. This endorses the view that the "son of man coming" reference in Matthew is not a reference to the second coming, but to Jesus' vindication over his enemies.

And no doubt, you will simply dismiss those arguments without actually engaging them. Plus ca change.....
Only by redacting a majority of the Scripture, and by harboring a preterist perspective, can one put forth such an assertion. In a word, "goofy".
 
Drew said:
Solo said:
Try opening up both eyes when you read the Scriptures, and you might attempt to rely on the Holy Spirit's interpretation instead of some wacky author that you have been reading. In the northern United States they label your assertion, "Goofy"!
You never change, Solo - you still are engaging in the old tired rhetoric that you did in the past. My argument is what it is. Please, engage its content if you like. But this statement of yours does not advance the discussion at all...
I'll be happy to interpret for Michael,

He says you are wrong... and I agree. I believe both passages speak of His return with all His glory. I'll let Solo elaborate. :)

I will agree that what most people consider the 'rapture' I see as the resurrection/transformation of saints.
 
Vic C. said:
I'll let Solo elaborate. :)
Do you call his last 2 posts "elaboration"? They are nothing but question-begging rhetoric. And no one, repeat no one, has engaged the arguments about the complex metaphor that I believe is being used in 1 Thess 4.

I am happy to be shown to be in error, if my arguments are neither ignored - as they have been - or dismissed patronizingly - as they have been.
 
Drew said:
Vic C. said:
I'll let Solo elaborate. :)
Do you call his last 2 posts "elaboration"? They are nothing but question-begging rhetoric. And no one, repeat no one, has engaged the arguments about the complex metaphor that I believe is being used in 1 Thess 4.

I am happy to be shown to be in error, if my arguments are neither ignored - as they have been - or dismissed patronizingly - as they have been.
One cannot be shown his error when he refuses to see the entire counsel of God's Word, and reads the embellishments of liberal theological so-called scholarship. Showing you your error has been attempted numerous times, but your understanding remains closed to the many Scriptures presented on various subjects. You can dismiss it as patronizing if you like. We will just agree to disagree, and then when it is all said and done, you can know the truth like the rest of us. ;) :)
 
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