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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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H
Heneni
Guest
Is the rapture, the resurrection of the wicked, the resurrection of the children of god, and the second coming and the rapture all in one day?
For example, when god pours his wrath out on the world, the people who paul talked about in his epistels, who he said was storing up for wrath for themselves, can't experience that wrath unless they are resurrected to experience it.
What im saying is that it seems unlikely for god to pour out his wrath on some, and let the dead get away from his wrath. And if the wicked go to hell when they die, why resurrect them, give them a new body and then send them right back again unless the purpose of their resurrected bodies is to experience the wrath.
I dont know...im just not convinced that god will leave his people here to experience his wrath, and the bibe says we are not appointed for it. So if we are not appointed for it, we dont have to show up for the appointment of wrath. And how are we going to avoid the wrath of god if we are on this earth where he pours it out on unless he takes us away.
For example, when god pours his wrath out on the world, the people who paul talked about in his epistels, who he said was storing up for wrath for themselves, can't experience that wrath unless they are resurrected to experience it.
What im saying is that it seems unlikely for god to pour out his wrath on some, and let the dead get away from his wrath. And if the wicked go to hell when they die, why resurrect them, give them a new body and then send them right back again unless the purpose of their resurrected bodies is to experience the wrath.
I dont know...im just not convinced that god will leave his people here to experience his wrath, and the bibe says we are not appointed for it. So if we are not appointed for it, we dont have to show up for the appointment of wrath. And how are we going to avoid the wrath of god if we are on this earth where he pours it out on unless he takes us away.
Vic C.
Member
No God is not going to resurrect people in order to inflict wrath upon them. H will resurrect them so thay may face final judgment.
You are mixing things up. Be careful. Search yourself; is God going to sent anyone to hell prior to judging them? Also, the wicked arn't getting new bodies! What us with all this strange teachings these days? Rhetorical question, I know the answer.
That's man's way of thinking. How did God protect Noah and his family? Did HE remove or protect them? If God chooses to remove us, so be it. If he chooses to protect us and hide us from the sights and consequences of His wrath, that's His will. He's God, He can do what we see as impossible.
H
Heneni
Guest
That's man's way of thinking. How did God protect Noah and his family? Did HE remove or protect them? If God chooses to remove us, so be it. If he chooses to protect us and hide us from the sights and consequences of His wrath, that's His will. He's God, He can do what we see as impossible.[/quote:2iesj38g]Vic C. said:
If im mixing things up you can show me where i do that. But if paul said that some in his time were storing up wrath for themselves, then when are they going to get what they sowed? Some would say they can do this in hell, but again, the wicked are also resurrected, and im asking what for? You can judge a spirit without giving him a resurrected body. The resurrection of the wicked is for them to experience the wrath of god and if not, what was paul talking about when he said, they were 'storing up wrath for themselves'
Heneni
Biblereader
Member
Heneni said:
They will get wrath here on earth, during the bowl, and vial judgements, PLUS, they will be tormented FOREVER in the Lake of Fire.
N
NIGHTMARE
Guest
Biblereader said:
People will not be tormented forever they will be blotted out......It will be as if they never existed,,,but God is not going to thave people tortured forever.....
Our Lord Jesus taught in John 5 at the sound of His voice there will be two resurrections, of both the just and the wicked; at the same time. That agrees with what He taught in Matt.25 and Mark 13 about the separation of His sheep from the goats or tares occuring at the time of His coming.
Are we to forget that when we study more resurrection details in 1 Corinthians 15? No. Paul taught as ALL have put on the "image of the earthly", ALL shall also put on the "image of the heavenly". That means resurrection of both the just and the unjust at the same time (like the example Christ gave at the end of Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man.)
The Big Picture:
The event of the change on earth from this world to the Heavenly at the 7th trumpet will occur very quickly. Its quickness is easy to forget when studying all the events that are to occur at that time. Though much detail is written scattered all throughout The Bible, the actual amount of time for all the associated events to occur is very short.
The 3rd woe of Rev.11 is one picture of it, the 7th trumpet sounding within the same hour, which means very quickly. The OT details says at an 'instant'. Paul used the expression "at the twinkling of an eye" referring to the OT details.
Within that same timeframe of Christ's coming, ALL on earth will be changed at an instant, the unjust too. The type of wrath that comes upon the wicked at that moment will occur very quickly, it won't be drawn out like men's traditions teach. Zech.14 gives a graphic view,
Zech 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
(KJV)
That's upon the wicked at Christ's coming, specifically the nations that will come up against Jerusalem at the end of this world.
Within that same timeframe, ALL alive upon this earth will be changed to the "image of the heavenly" type body, the unjust or wicked also ("resurrection unto damnation" per John 5). ALL will be raised, not just those in Christ. All will see Christ's coming with His alseep saints, and He will separate the unjust from the just, placing the unjust in the "outer darkness", a place of separation outside the gates of the Holy City. Christ will gather His saints then inside the Holy City (or "camp of the saints" per Rev.20). That happens upon this earth.
Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 that all will be resurrected at Christ's coming on the "last trump". But NOT all will have put on immortality to be of the "first resurrection". Christ showed us a difference in the Luke 16 example of Lazarus and the rich man. Both died, and the angels carried Lazarus to the bosom of Abraham in Paradise, and the rich man was carried to a place of separation across a great gulf fixed border to hell, the abode of the wicked.
Those in Christ who put on immortality at Christ's coming are the "first resurrection" (per Rev.20). They can never be subject to the "second death". The second death is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign. ONLY the resurrection of the unjust will still be subject to that "second death" later.
This means both the just and unjust are raised at Christ's coming, but, the unjust will be of a different resurrection type than the "first resurrection". They'll still be in a liable to perish condition, which is what Paul showed in the Greek of 1 Cor.15:50-53. That resurrection of the unjust are those "dead" of Rev.20:5. The actual idea is they are only 'spiritually dead', not literally still in the grave. This is why we discover quite a few Scriptures describing their existence at the same time of Christ's resurrected saints (like Rev.22:13-15; Matt.8:12; Rev.3 of those who will bow at the feet of Christ's elect; etc.) This is why those "dead" (spiritually dead) will still be subject to the "second death".
Those spiritually dead of the resurrection of the unjust will be taught during that "thousand years". Teaching God's Word is one of the jobs of the priest, the job of Christ's elect priests (see Isaiah 29:18-24; Ezekiel 44 about the Zadok (Just) priests). Satan and his will be locked in the pit through that time, so he will not be able to deceive them. They will learn doctrine and will understand, nothing being hid.
At the end of that thousand years, Satan and his will be loosed one more time. He will lead many of that resurrection of unjust up against the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" to destroy it. God will rain fire down from Heaven to burn those up, the same kind of Gog and Magog event that's to occur to end this world, when certain peoples of the nations will come up against today's Jerusalem to try and destroy.
Then those unjust remaining after that event will be judged (end of Rev.20). Notice these are not of the "first resurrection". These who face judgment at the end will have already been raised, and are of the resurrection unto damnation that were raised at Christ's coming, i.e., those who were still subject to the second death. They are called 'dead' until they put on immortality through Christ Jesus, and become joined to the "first resurrection" of Christ's saints. This is why a second resurrection is implied in Rev.20. It does not mean these were in graves all through Christ's thousand years and raised at the end of it. These are the unjust who chose Christ after being taught during the thouand years.
Then the Godhead will be fully established on earth at New Jerusalem, starting the new heavens and a new earth, God's Eternity. The wicked will not be there, nor see it.
Are we to forget that when we study more resurrection details in 1 Corinthians 15? No. Paul taught as ALL have put on the "image of the earthly", ALL shall also put on the "image of the heavenly". That means resurrection of both the just and the unjust at the same time (like the example Christ gave at the end of Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man.)
The Big Picture:
The event of the change on earth from this world to the Heavenly at the 7th trumpet will occur very quickly. Its quickness is easy to forget when studying all the events that are to occur at that time. Though much detail is written scattered all throughout The Bible, the actual amount of time for all the associated events to occur is very short.
The 3rd woe of Rev.11 is one picture of it, the 7th trumpet sounding within the same hour, which means very quickly. The OT details says at an 'instant'. Paul used the expression "at the twinkling of an eye" referring to the OT details.
Within that same timeframe of Christ's coming, ALL on earth will be changed at an instant, the unjust too. The type of wrath that comes upon the wicked at that moment will occur very quickly, it won't be drawn out like men's traditions teach. Zech.14 gives a graphic view,
Zech 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
(KJV)
That's upon the wicked at Christ's coming, specifically the nations that will come up against Jerusalem at the end of this world.
Within that same timeframe, ALL alive upon this earth will be changed to the "image of the heavenly" type body, the unjust or wicked also ("resurrection unto damnation" per John 5). ALL will be raised, not just those in Christ. All will see Christ's coming with His alseep saints, and He will separate the unjust from the just, placing the unjust in the "outer darkness", a place of separation outside the gates of the Holy City. Christ will gather His saints then inside the Holy City (or "camp of the saints" per Rev.20). That happens upon this earth.
Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 that all will be resurrected at Christ's coming on the "last trump". But NOT all will have put on immortality to be of the "first resurrection". Christ showed us a difference in the Luke 16 example of Lazarus and the rich man. Both died, and the angels carried Lazarus to the bosom of Abraham in Paradise, and the rich man was carried to a place of separation across a great gulf fixed border to hell, the abode of the wicked.
Those in Christ who put on immortality at Christ's coming are the "first resurrection" (per Rev.20). They can never be subject to the "second death". The second death is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign. ONLY the resurrection of the unjust will still be subject to that "second death" later.
This means both the just and unjust are raised at Christ's coming, but, the unjust will be of a different resurrection type than the "first resurrection". They'll still be in a liable to perish condition, which is what Paul showed in the Greek of 1 Cor.15:50-53. That resurrection of the unjust are those "dead" of Rev.20:5. The actual idea is they are only 'spiritually dead', not literally still in the grave. This is why we discover quite a few Scriptures describing their existence at the same time of Christ's resurrected saints (like Rev.22:13-15; Matt.8:12; Rev.3 of those who will bow at the feet of Christ's elect; etc.) This is why those "dead" (spiritually dead) will still be subject to the "second death".
Those spiritually dead of the resurrection of the unjust will be taught during that "thousand years". Teaching God's Word is one of the jobs of the priest, the job of Christ's elect priests (see Isaiah 29:18-24; Ezekiel 44 about the Zadok (Just) priests). Satan and his will be locked in the pit through that time, so he will not be able to deceive them. They will learn doctrine and will understand, nothing being hid.
At the end of that thousand years, Satan and his will be loosed one more time. He will lead many of that resurrection of unjust up against the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" to destroy it. God will rain fire down from Heaven to burn those up, the same kind of Gog and Magog event that's to occur to end this world, when certain peoples of the nations will come up against today's Jerusalem to try and destroy.
Then those unjust remaining after that event will be judged (end of Rev.20). Notice these are not of the "first resurrection". These who face judgment at the end will have already been raised, and are of the resurrection unto damnation that were raised at Christ's coming, i.e., those who were still subject to the second death. They are called 'dead' until they put on immortality through Christ Jesus, and become joined to the "first resurrection" of Christ's saints. This is why a second resurrection is implied in Rev.20. It does not mean these were in graves all through Christ's thousand years and raised at the end of it. These are the unjust who chose Christ after being taught during the thouand years.
Then the Godhead will be fully established on earth at New Jerusalem, starting the new heavens and a new earth, God's Eternity. The wicked will not be there, nor see it.
No, there is no such thing as a "secret rapture" followed by a seven-year tribulation. That theology is the stuff of which fiction books, novels and Kurt Cameron movies are based off of!Dave Slayer said:
Enjoy this book full of truth:
Anything But Secret
Ed the Ned
Member
RND said:
And Wikipedia says about the the author of this website:
Doug Batchelor (born March 9 , 1957 ) is an evangelist of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
I'm non-denominational, not SDA, and there's still no such thing as a "secret rapture" written in God's Word.
If you dig up the history of when the "secret rapture" doctrine began, it's revealed that prior to the 1800's it never was an idea taught in the Churches. Up until the 1800's, the Church was primarily post-tribulational, marking Christ's coming after the tribulation.
If you dig up the history of when the "secret rapture" doctrine began, it's revealed that prior to the 1800's it never was an idea taught in the Churches. Up until the 1800's, the Church was primarily post-tribulational, marking Christ's coming after the tribulation.
If one is defining "rapture" as a secret disappearance of Christians before a 7-yr tribulation, then "no"...it's not biblical.
If one is defining "rapture" as one component of several eschatological events (meaning rapture, 2nd coming, Final Judgment of the righteous and unjust, etc) which happen at the same time...then "yes" it is biblical.
If one is defining "rapture" as one component of several eschatological events (meaning rapture, 2nd coming, Final Judgment of the righteous and unjust, etc) which happen at the same time...then "yes" it is biblical.
I don't see anywhere in The Bible where it will be secret, or a disappearance of the saints on earth, but instead merely as a transition on earth into the heavenly dimension, while still on earth.
Because God's Word shows Christ's future reign over the nations being on the earth, with the saints ruling on earth with Him, and that involves the resurrection too, it has to mean a change of this earthly dimension we're in today to the heavenly type, it's existence being revealed on earth. It's a difficult picture to describe because today we have nothing as a type to actually compare it with.
One of the Bible examples I can think of would be like when the army of the king of Syria surrounded the city of Dotham where Elisha was. Elisha's servant arose early in the morning and the Syrian army had surrounded them, and he feared. Elisha then said, "Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them." Then Elisha prayed that his servant's eyes would be opened. God opened the servant's eyes to the heavenly, and he then saw many horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
So when it's popular for many to think of the Heavenly being some place far off away from this earth, I interpret the Heavenly like The Bible, as being close to us, behind a veil, in a dimension our flesh sense does not normally perceive.
Because God's Word shows Christ's future reign over the nations being on the earth, with the saints ruling on earth with Him, and that involves the resurrection too, it has to mean a change of this earthly dimension we're in today to the heavenly type, it's existence being revealed on earth. It's a difficult picture to describe because today we have nothing as a type to actually compare it with.
One of the Bible examples I can think of would be like when the army of the king of Syria surrounded the city of Dotham where Elisha was. Elisha's servant arose early in the morning and the Syrian army had surrounded them, and he feared. Elisha then said, "Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them." Then Elisha prayed that his servant's eyes would be opened. God opened the servant's eyes to the heavenly, and he then saw many horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
So when it's popular for many to think of the Heavenly being some place far off away from this earth, I interpret the Heavenly like The Bible, as being close to us, behind a veil, in a dimension our flesh sense does not normally perceive.