turnorburn
Member
Somebody somewhere is making a whole bunch of people a very large sum of money.
I'll contribute my
turnorburn
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
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Somebody somewhere is making a whole bunch of people a very large sum of money.
I'll contribute my
turnorburn
A
Alabaster
Guest
Biblereader said:
Right. I believe that we will live through some of the Tribulation as it sets up. There won't be hard edges that delineate current times and Tribulation times. It is a gradual advance of events and conditions.
We will even see the Antichrist, but many of us won't know him as that unless the Holy Spirit personally speaks to our hearts about it, for he isn't revealed until mid-point, and I believe we will be removed by that point.
R
radorth
Guest
david_james said:
They through a glass clearly and they know when the Day of the Lord will come.
Let me suggest that virtually all those who argue pre-mid-post tribulation are hedging their bets and want to know more out of fear than faith. You get a clue what to worry about from reading the early fathers, who had no debates like these, ever.
:help
(Note "early fathers"= pre-Nicene Council fathers)
D
david_james
Guest
The tribulation starts at the signing of the peace treaty between Antichrist and Israel. That is when he is revealed, not mid.
God's wrath is the tribulation. Therefore, believers will suffer some of God's wrath.
God's wrath is the tribulation. Therefore, believers will suffer some of God's wrath.
Drew
Member
This has no place in a serious discussion. You do not engage my specific arguments - you simply dismiss them.Solo said:One cannot be shown his error when he refuses to see the entire counsel of God's Word, and reads the embellishments of liberal theological so-called scholarship. Showing you your error has been attempted numerous times, but your understanding remains closed to the many Scriptures presented on various subjects. You can dismiss it as patronizing if you like. We will just agree to disagree, and then when it is all said and done, you can know the truth like the rest of us. ;)
I will shortly be adding some more material - we will see if people conveniently ignore it, or actually engage it.
Drew
Member
This post contains questions directed at those who believe that a rapture event will occur. And by “rapture†I refer to the event whereby a certain set of people will be bodily snatched off the face of the earth and will go off somewhere – presumably heaven. If you understand that the rapture is something other than this, then by all means explain.
Here is are some texts from 1 Corinthians 15. Note how verse 22 connects to the later material – in verse 22 we have the resurrection (being made alive as Christ was) happening at the time Jesus returns. In the second text, note the reference to the raising of the dead, trumpet blast, and the “change†that all will undergo:
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Now here is the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage that is often used to support rapture theology. Note the reference to the trumpet and the raising of the dead:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever
For reasons I have already given at length, and yet without response, I conclude that the 1 Thess 4 reference to being “caught up in the clouds†is a metaphorical way of asserting that those alive at the time of Jesus return will be transformed, as is stated literally in the 1 Cor 15 text.
I would like to ask how you who believe in the rapture make sense of the timing of the following events:
1. The return of Christ;
2. The raising of the dead in Christ;
3. The snatching away bodily of the living (the rapture);
4. The transformation of the living (1 Corinthians 15)
Here is my answer: When Jesus returns (which He only does once), the dead in Christ are resurrected to life in resurrection bodies and the living are transformed so that they have resurrection bodies. And there is no rapture.
Now, you who believe in a rapture, please answer this same set of questions. Do any of you believe that the dead are raised and together with believers alive at the time, this entire set of persons is raptured away bodily into heaven?
Here is are some texts from 1 Corinthians 15. Note how verse 22 connects to the later material – in verse 22 we have the resurrection (being made alive as Christ was) happening at the time Jesus returns. In the second text, note the reference to the raising of the dead, trumpet blast, and the “change†that all will undergo:
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Now here is the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage that is often used to support rapture theology. Note the reference to the trumpet and the raising of the dead:
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever
For reasons I have already given at length, and yet without response, I conclude that the 1 Thess 4 reference to being “caught up in the clouds†is a metaphorical way of asserting that those alive at the time of Jesus return will be transformed, as is stated literally in the 1 Cor 15 text.
I would like to ask how you who believe in the rapture make sense of the timing of the following events:
1. The return of Christ;
2. The raising of the dead in Christ;
3. The snatching away bodily of the living (the rapture);
4. The transformation of the living (1 Corinthians 15)
Here is my answer: When Jesus returns (which He only does once), the dead in Christ are resurrected to life in resurrection bodies and the living are transformed so that they have resurrection bodies. And there is no rapture.
Now, you who believe in a rapture, please answer this same set of questions. Do any of you believe that the dead are raised and together with believers alive at the time, this entire set of persons is raptured away bodily into heaven?
D
david_james
Guest
okay here is what will happen from Rapture to Glorious Appearing:
Jesus comes in clouds and takes all who are dead in Christ, born again and babies to Heaven
Antichrist revealed. Signs treaty. Tribulation starts.
Seven seals
Seven trumpets
Antichrist killed, lives again indwelt by satan
Mark of beast
Seven bowls
Jesus fully returns to earth. Defeats antichrist army, with his elect behind him. Antichrist and false prophet thrown into lake of fire. Satan thrown into bottomless pit
Jesus comes in clouds and takes all who are dead in Christ, born again and babies to Heaven
Antichrist revealed. Signs treaty. Tribulation starts.
Seven seals
Seven trumpets
Antichrist killed, lives again indwelt by satan
Mark of beast
Seven bowls
Jesus fully returns to earth. Defeats antichrist army, with his elect behind him. Antichrist and false prophet thrown into lake of fire. Satan thrown into bottomless pit
Drew
Member
I think there is a fairly serious problem this view.david_james said:
In 1 Corinthians 15 we have the return of Jesus and the raising of the dead in Christ - just as in the 1 Thess 4 text. I assume that you must believe that these refer to the same event - surely there are not two raisings of the dead in Christ.
Here is the problem: If the 1 Cor 15 text is describing the same event as the 1 Thess 4 text, how come the 1 Cor 15 text is entirely silent about the rapturing away of the church?
I think it is far more likely to understand the 1 Thess 4 reference to being "caught up in the clouds" as a metaporical way of alluding to the transformation of the living, as described more literally in 1 Cor 15. Now I have argued this very point, showing exactly what Scriptural images Paul might be drawing on. Now, in a serious discussion, you should not simply ignore those arguments. I am used to this from Solo and others. But, they need to be engaged, and no one is doing so.
I wonder why.
Historical knowledge is important here. NT Wright, a respected theologian and historian who rejects the rapture theoloy, asserts this:
''When the Emperor came to visit a colony or province, the people would go out to meet him at some distance from the city. It would be disrespectful to have him arrive at the gates as though they his subjects couldn't be bothered to meet him properly. When they met him, they wouldn't then stay out in the open country; they would escort him royally into the city itself. When Paul speaks of 'meeting' the Lord 'in the air', the point is precisely not - as in the popular rapture theology - that the saved believers would then stay up in the air somewhere, away from earth. The point is that, having gone out to meet their returning Lord, they will escort him royally into his domain, that is, back to the place they have come from.'
Now, if Wright has his historical facts correct - and even his opponents admit Wright's academic credentials are strong - one can easily see how Paul could be leveraging this cutural practice as part of the mixed metaphor of 1 Thess 4, as Wright explains above.
F
follower of Christ
Guest
There is a second resurrection, but the second is AFTER the millennial reign...which proves your view entirely since it is very clearly spelled out in Revelation....
M
Matthew24:34
Guest
Could we please put passages in their contexts! To whom was Paul speaking in 1 and 2 Thessalonians? Was he not speaking to the first-century, flesh-and-blood Thessalonians about things that were to personal involve them? Paul included himself and those saints of his day when he said, "WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them [the dead in Christ] to meet the Lord in the air."
To whom was Paul writing in 2 Thessalonians? Did he not address his letter to those very Thessalonians of his day? Did he not teach them that THEY themselves would receive rest from their trials AT HIS APPEARING? Did he not teach them that God was going to punish those very ones of their day who were persecuting THEM--AT HIS APPEARING? Did he not make it clear that THEY knew the restrainer because the restrainer was contemporaneous to the man of sin?
What is the timing for the entire book of the Revelation? Is it not clearly spelled out in the first and last chapters? John was shown those things which were in his day to SHORTLY take place because the time was THEN near! (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).
The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is addressed to Jesus' disciples who were standing right there with Him! THEY were not to be troubled. THEY were to hear of wars and rumors of wars. THEY were to be hated and persecuted and killed for His name's sake! THEY were not to be deceived by false Christs. He warned THEM beforehand. THEY were to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet! THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as clearly as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree and ALL the trees! ALL of those things were to come upon THEIR generation. THEY were to watch and be ready. WE are NOT the YE! That is the CONTEXT!
The rapture did not involve us--it involved those of that first-century, pre-A. D. 70 generation!
Matthew24:34
To whom was Paul writing in 2 Thessalonians? Did he not address his letter to those very Thessalonians of his day? Did he not teach them that THEY themselves would receive rest from their trials AT HIS APPEARING? Did he not teach them that God was going to punish those very ones of their day who were persecuting THEM--AT HIS APPEARING? Did he not make it clear that THEY knew the restrainer because the restrainer was contemporaneous to the man of sin?
What is the timing for the entire book of the Revelation? Is it not clearly spelled out in the first and last chapters? John was shown those things which were in his day to SHORTLY take place because the time was THEN near! (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).
The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is addressed to Jesus' disciples who were standing right there with Him! THEY were not to be troubled. THEY were to hear of wars and rumors of wars. THEY were to be hated and persecuted and killed for His name's sake! THEY were not to be deceived by false Christs. He warned THEM beforehand. THEY were to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet! THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as clearly as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree and ALL the trees! ALL of those things were to come upon THEIR generation. THEY were to watch and be ready. WE are NOT the YE! That is the CONTEXT!
The rapture did not involve us--it involved those of that first-century, pre-A. D. 70 generation!
Matthew24:34
Drew
Member
Let me begin by saying that I entirely agree with the general philosophy of your post. Far too often, we forget that Paul wrote the letters to real people 2000 years and not to us, even though, of course, the letters do indeed teach us many things.Matthew24:34 said:
And while this is an area I have not studied a lot, people I respect greatly tend to agree that the church reads too much "end times" into texts that are really about things that are going to happen in the short period of time after Jesus' death. For example, I believe that material in Matthew is often misunderstood to be a prophecy about the end of the world when, in fact, it is really prophecy about events of 70 AD.
However, do you not agree that some stuff in these texts is really about the "end times". Take the 1 Thess 4 text:
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Do you not agree that verse 16 is about an event that is yet to come - the return of Jesus? True, he writes to fellow Christians to assuage their grief about their friends who have died. But, it seems hard to read verses 16 and 17 as being anything other than a description of events yet to come. Do you disagree? If you have been reading my posts, you will know that while I think verse 17 is in the future, it is not a literal description. It is rather a metaphorical way to refer to the transformation to be experienced by those alive at Jesus' return.
And I would be very interested to know what you mean when you say that the rapture involved those of the first century. What form did that rapture take?
B
BornAgain3
Guest
Newbie here - for a LONG time, I was a pre-tribber, until I saw the errors of my ways in recent days. It's CLEARLY stated in those Matthew 24 and 2nd The passages, in particular - the rapture does NOT take place prior to Daniel's 70th week.
I don't mean to sound rude or anything here, but we need to WAKE UP to alot of this nonsense deceptions man is spreading(i.e. Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins and their best-selling "Left Behind" novels) as we're nearing the end times.
At least to me, the pre-trib rapture is yet another spinoff, to some extent, of this prosperity gospel nonsense.
I don't mean to sound rude or anything here, but we need to WAKE UP to alot of this nonsense deceptions man is spreading(i.e. Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins and their best-selling "Left Behind" novels) as we're nearing the end times.
At least to me, the pre-trib rapture is yet another spinoff, to some extent, of this prosperity gospel nonsense.
A
Aurora
Guest
follower of Christ said:
I see the rapture at the beginning of the wrath of God, in chapter 4: of Revelation.
We are not appointed unto wrath, so we are taken suddenly out, like Lot was before Sodom was destroyed.
1Thes. 4:16-17-18 The Bible says to comfort one another with these words.....1Thes. 4:18
This is the next prophetic event to happen, then the seven seals will begin to be opened.
Jesus, Standing and opening the seals , here he is no longer making intercession but his attention is on the seals, and beginning of the 7 year tribulation.
Vic C.
Member
The actual verse stating the beginning of God's wrath is in Rev.6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The opening of the seven sealed scroll is prior to His Wrath. The events during the opening of the seals are allowed by God but are not created or caused by God.
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The opening of the seven sealed scroll is prior to His Wrath. The events during the opening of the seals are allowed by God but are not created or caused by God.
turnorburn
Member
Jesus came the first time as the sacrificial Lamb Of God without spot or blemish. The second time he will come as the Lion Of Juda, the time for mercy is gone only judgment remains, there is no third coming.
Is the rapture biblical "Nope"
Matthew 24: 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Is the rapture biblical "Nope"
Matthew 24: 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
A
Aurora
Guest
radorth said:I don't think so. I can find no early church references to it and it's a bit of a stretch of scripture. The "rapture" doctrine was invented about 1800 as I recall. One problem: we assume that "one will be taken and the other left" means the rapture, when it could also mean that the one "taken" is taken where no one wishes to go, when Jesus returns to rule. I don't say that is my doctrine at all, but it just isn't clear.
The doctrine of purgatory has more scripture behind it, and far more early father support.
By the way, what is that old dusty wooden thing over there, with the ropes and wheels on it?
I'm not sure where you get your information, but the Rapture is definitely scriptural, and it was not just invented in 1800.
The doctrine of the Rapture is as old as the writing of scripture .......The confusion I believe is just a lack of knowing how to put all scripture together to see the whole truth.
The word, in Greek anyway, was Harpazo. being translated is catching away, or also in Hebrew Rapturous? Maybe not spelled right, but info can be found in the Greek, and Hebrew text. I just dont have that in my possession, so look it up.???
We did a study on it a couple years ago.....
...1Thes. 4:16-17-18- Revelation 4:
O
Osgiliath
Guest
As far as the pre-tribulation rapture, yes, it was "just invented" in the 1800's (1830 to be exact). Do some research on this.
I can't believe people still debate this. I think it is time to put this to rest (Scripturally). A "rapture" (snatching) IS Scriptural. However, a "pre-tribulation" rapture is not. God's Seven Last Plagues (Vials) which occur at the very end of the Tribulation are not directed at the saints, but only the wicked. However, the saints will be present and experience everything else (aside from the Seven Vials - God's Wrath) within the 42 month Tribulation.
When Jesus speaks to His disciples concerning "the end", He NEVER alludes to a pre-Second Coming rapture. Notice these passages:
* ". . . he who stands firm to the end will be saved." ( 24:13)
* ". . . this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." ( 24:14)
* ". . . as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." ( 24:27)
* "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." ( 24:30)
* "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." ( 24:37)
* ". . . they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." ( 24:39)
* "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." ( 24:42)
There is nothing written about a "secret rapture" that transpires before His coming - "THE COMING" (i.e. singular coming).
As far as "One Will be Taken and the Other Left" in 24:40-42: It seems to suggest that the appearing of Jesus will be a sudden and totally unexpected event. When looked at superficially, these verses seem to say that two people will be working side by side and poof......... one person is taken and the other is left. That is a complete distortion ot the text. No one but the Father knows the day or hour (the date) of Christ's coming (a singular coming). It says there is a parallel between Noah's day and His appearing – most people will be surprised and many will be lost because of willful ignorance. Two people can work side-by-side every day and yet, one will be saved and the other will be lost. Hello! To turn this into a "secret rapture" contradicts the context of the entire chapter (in fact, the entire Bible). It is simply not written, and false.
As far as 1 Thessalonians:
"According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from Heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
These verses contain four important points:
* The living do not precede the dead to Heaven.
* Jesus Himself will come down from Heaven.
* He will call the dead in Christ to life with a loud command.
* As the dead rise, the living will join with them to meet Jesus in the air.
What does it say? It says, "After that [i.e. resurrection of the dead in Christ], we who are still alive and are left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air."
These "left behinders" distort Paul's words to mean, "after that [the rapture], we who are still alive and are left [behind] will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air [later on at the Second Coming]. . . ."
Sorry, but this is not the meaning of Paul's words: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."
This simply states the living will not precede the dead to Heaven; period. That's all it is talking about; not some secret "other coming" of Christ. The two groups meet the Lord at the same time. The Bible refers to individuals who are alive at the coming of the Lord in the sense that "we" [the living] who are alive when the Lord appears will unite with the dead to meet Jesus in the air. This fact is quite different from being "left behind after a rapture."
And here is the clincher that should put this to rest once and for all:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
That is the subject, Jesus Christ's return, and Paul is going to tell us the how and when we gather back to Him.
2:2 that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.
Don't be wishy washy about this subject. This is exactly how it's going down.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
We ARE NOT going to gather back to Christ until AFTER that man of sin is revealed, NOT BEFORE. No pre-tribulation rapture, get it?
2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
There is only one that is going to play God in the end, and sadly, most pre-tribbles will think he is in fact God (Jesus Christ), because they're expecting to be raptured out of here before the Tribulation. This is dangerous, because it sets the unwary up to receive the first "messiah" that appears. Due to the amount of people in the world who are deceived by this teaching, I have little doubt the false messiah will use this to his advantage by claiming he is Jesus who is here to rapture them away, and this will in fact be a big part of the "falling away" spoken of in verse 2:3 (above).
BEWARE!
B
BornAgain3
Guest
FYI - the "Left Behind" writers are FREEMASONS(Tim LaHaye, in particular).
http://watch.pair.com/lahaye.html
IMHO - that whole "Left Behind" series that swept the country in the 1990's was nothing more than a PSYOP.
BTW - Rapture Ready's Todd Strandberg, apparently, is in on it too.
http://libertytothecaptives.net/pretrib ... rying.html
http://watch.pair.com/lahaye.html
IMHO - that whole "Left Behind" series that swept the country in the 1990's was nothing more than a PSYOP.
BTW - Rapture Ready's Todd Strandberg, apparently, is in on it too.
http://libertytothecaptives.net/pretrib ... rying.html
O
Osgiliath
Guest
Hi BornAgain3
Interesting. However, I don't pay much attention to anyone's outside affiliations or practices. I don't think that is fair or particularly relevant. A principled commitment to Biblical accuracy when it comes to what the teach is what concerns me. ;) They are certainly lacking in that area.
Interesting. However, I don't pay much attention to anyone's outside affiliations or practices. I don't think that is fair or particularly relevant. A principled commitment to Biblical accuracy when it comes to what the teach is what concerns me. ;) They are certainly lacking in that area.
B
BornAgain3
Guest
Osgiliath said:
I know - was just pointing out that you can't be both a Christian and a Freemason. I'm surprised people don't at least point this out with the "Left Behind" writers.
As for that Rapture Ready MB - I was once a member from last summer to this spring...after some 3400+ posts, I got banned for some unknown reason. Todd said how I got some 6 (minor)infractions since Oct(never saw this in the rulebook, but whatever), but nonetheless I'm still scratching my head.
During my stay at RR, while alot of members were great, and even formed some tight friendships. However - for a Christian MB, it was INCREDIBLY Politically Correct, where you couldn't even bring up certain discussions(while others were limited in nature) b/c they had some sort of "conspiracy" angle to them(No - I'm not talking about debates over whether 9/11 was an inside job, alot of discussions like the Illuminati, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, why the war in Iraq was completely wrong, why Bush/Cheney weren't Christians, etc, etc...even THESE discussions that NEEDED to be debated about were labeled as "conspiracy"-related). And to boot - there was just so much spiritual warfare there, as the mods would stalk around selected individuals(happened to me), and even allowed alot of un-Godly talk and fighting by certain other members. Heck - you will get ganged up on a good one if you call out the "Left Behind" writers, Jerry Falwell, etc in their Apostasy forum. They also give Jack Van Impe TOO much leeway as well.
Anyhow - thought I would point this out - that we need to call out EVERYONE who speaks false doctrine. ;)