Is the rapture Biblical?

[walter]

"I never said they were. After the Cross, "whomsoever will" (biological descendents of Israel included). Believers in Jesus are heirs to the promise. Biologically speaking, they can be of ANY RACE. "Physical" ancestry is irrelevant."

Osgiliath,
If physical ancestry is irrelevant, then why did God go through the trouble of seeing that Jesus was born in the direct line of King David?

 

[Vic C.]

Hehe. Thank goodness. I thought I was the loner here.

Not really, I have said several times, I have adopted some of the Reformation's historicism beliefs. :yes

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I don't know how we can argue rapture on this site anyway when 90% of the members are preterists and they believe all this stuff happend via Nero anyway.

Well, I'm not a preterist, But I'm not a futurist either tho, I believe in essence what the original early Protestants believed, and that being that prophecy is unfolding little by little with each passing day,

I consider both preterists and futurists to be sitting in opposing ends of the same boat, a boat designed to keep both occupants from seeing what is really going on, and all the while headed for oblivion,
This boat was commissioned beginning sometime during the late 1500's by the roman catholic church in an effort to take the eyes of the protestants off her as being the whore of Babylon, and it has worked pretty well too so far, cause very few it seems are able to see through this smokescreen,

Here's how it works, preterism teaches that all is in the past, 70ad to be precise, while futurism teaches all is in the future, always in the future, and all the while where is what is not in focus? That's right, right in the middle 1260 years of killing and pillaging and nobody seems to care, or they're taught that it's insignificant,

The strangest thing to me tho is this boat has been shot full of holes over the years and it's sinking fast, but both its riders refuse to jump out and swim for safety, I guess their too busy shooting at each other, or sometimes shooting themselves in the foot.

I agree many some prophecys have past but there is alot left to come,,,,,,and no way in heck did everything get covered in 70ad thats just nonsense.....

 

[nonbelieverforums]

I agree many some prophecys have past but there is alot left to come,,,,,,and no way in heck did everything get covered in 70ad thats just nonsense.....

:amen

 

[walter]

I agree many some prophecys have past but there is alot left to come,,,,,,and no way in heck did everything get covered in 70ad thats just nonsense.....

:amen

Free thinkers! How refreshing! :yes

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by walter
If physical ancestry is irrelevant, then why did God go through the trouble of seeing that Jesus was born in the direct line of King David?

To fulfill prophecy walter! (see Genesis 49:10, Jeremiah 23:10, Isaiah 11:1-5, Isaiah 9:6-7, Psalms 132:11, Psalms 110:1, Psalms 89:3-4, 2 Samuel 7:12-16).

The covenant between God and the biological descendants of Abraham ended at the Cross (see Genesis 15:18; Exodus 24:1-8; Ephesians 2; Colossians 2:13-17). The death of Jesus brought an end to an exclusive covenant that existed between God and the nation of ancient Israel. That covenant was based on the shedding of blood and it was temporary (shadows); and is why it was called a "blood covenant" (Zechariah 9:11), "the old covenant" (2 Corinthians 3:14), "the first covenant" (Hebrews 9:1), or "the law of Moses" (Luke 2:22).

Jesus’ death "terminated" the first blood covenant with ancient Israel and initiated the second blood covenant with all who would believe in Him. And God turned to "whosoever will" as the new trustees (redefining Israel); composed of believers in Christ from every tribe, language and nation who live by faith in Jesus (Romans 2:28,29; 9:8; James 1:1; 2:1; Galatians 3:28; Revelation 7:9).

 

[justvisiting]

I am definitely post-tribulation. II thessalonians 2 makes it as clear as a bell... the man of sin is revealed... after that THE DAY OF THE LORD occurs. THE DAY OF THE LORD is the so called rapture.
I could start with a serious Bible study on it... but I'm justvisiting. pre-tribulationists believe what they believe mostly because they don't think the Lord would put them through it. Look at all the Apostles and prophets that were crucified and stoned. They were happy to suffer. Mind you I certainly am no such super being. The account of the tribulation is also in Matthew 24, mark 13, luke 21... If you are going to read I Thess. 4... then read II Thess. 2 ... it's all part of the same context. Ok
Finally to answer the question. Is the rapture Biblical...definitely, but it's at the end of the tribulation. There are 2 comings... not three. Sorry

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by justvisiting
If you are going to read I Thess. 4... then read II Thess. 2 ... it's all part of the same context

They seem to forget that unbelievably emphatic point. Paul actually reminded them NOT to be confused by his first letter regarding the specifics of OUR GATHERING BACK TO CHRIST!

2 Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

"Nor by letter as from us." In other words; "Don't let my first letter confuse you; because I'm setting the record straight right here and now; in my second letter."

Excellent post by the way.

 

[follower of Christ]

The 'Rapture' (The Day of the Lord)
wm tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
That the 'rapture' is actually the Day of the Lord spoken of in the New Testament and that it will be towards the end of the 7 year tribulation.


Supporting Evidence

Firstly we establish that the 'day of the Lord' is what comes as a 'thief in the night'.

(1Thess 5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

(2Peter 3:10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

We see here that it is AFTER the tribulation of those days that the Son of Man appears.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of Heaven shall fall, and the powers in the heavens shall be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He shall send His angels and shall gather His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.
(Mar 13:24-27)

When the Son of Man returns we see that some will be taken while others are left behind.

But just as the days of Noah were, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man. For just as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they didn't know a thing until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man.
Then two will be in the field: one will be taken, and one will be left. Two will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken, and one will be left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know in what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would have kept watch, and he would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready, for at an hour that you think not, the Son of Man comes.
(Matthew 24:37-44 EMTV)

We see that it shall be then as it was in the day of Noah and of Sodom. The righteous are pulled out of harms way then sudden judgment comes.

And as it was in the days of Noah, so it also shall be in the days of the Son of Man. They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and the flood came and destroyed them all.

So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
(Luk 17:26-30)

Here we see that the days of 'affliction' are shortened because of the elect, for their sake. They must be present and being afflicted for this to be accurate.

for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.
(Mat 24:21-22)

For in those days shall be affliction, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days.
(Mar 13:19-20)

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I am definitely post-tribulation. II thessalonians 2 makes it as clear as a bell... the man of sin is revealed... after that THE DAY OF THE LORD occurs. THE DAY OF THE LORD is the so called rapture.
I could start with a serious Bible study on it... but I'm justvisiting. pre-tribulationists believe what they believe mostly because they don't think the Lord would put them through it. Look at all the Apostles and prophets that were crucified and stoned. They were happy to suffer. Mind you I certainly am no such super being. The account of the tribulation is also in Matthew 24, mark 13, luke 21... If you are going to read I Thess. 4... then read II Thess. 2 ... it's all part of the same context. Ok
Finally to answer the question. Is the rapture Biblical...definitely, but it's at the end of the tribulation. There are 2 comings... not three. Sorry

There are 2 comings

Ok,,,,you do know that Christ returns on the 7 trump??????? and there is no 8th......

Please give 1 scripture that says there are 2 comings.........

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Originally posted by justvisiting
If you are going to read I Thess. 4... then read II Thess. 2 ... it's all part of the same context

They seem to forget that unbelievably emphatic point. Paul actually reminded them NOT to be confused by his first letter regarding the specifics of OUR GATHERING BACK TO CHRIST!

2 Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

"Nor by letter as from us." In other words; "Don't let my first letter confuse you; because I'm setting the record straight right here and now; in my second letter."

Excellent post by the way.

Indeed unless you die you aint going no-where,,,,if we are living we will see the tribulation/temptation and personally I dont want to get raptured anyway,,,good thing there aint no such thing......

 

[westtexas]

I am definitely post-tribulation. II thessalonians 2 makes it as clear as a bell... the man of sin is revealed... after that THE DAY OF THE LORD occurs. THE DAY OF THE LORD is the so called rapture.
I could start with a serious Bible study on it... but I'm justvisiting. pre-tribulationists believe what they believe mostly because they don't think the Lord would put them through it. Look at all the Apostles and prophets that were crucified and stoned. They were happy to suffer. Mind you I certainly am no such super being. The account of the tribulation is also in Matthew 24, mark 13, luke 21... If you are going to read I Thess. 4... then read II Thess. 2 ... it's all part of the same context. Ok
Finally to answer the question. Is the rapture Biblical...definitely, but it's at the end of the tribulation. There are 2 comings... not three. Sorry

There are 2 comings

Ok,,,,you do know that Christ returns on the 7 trump??????? and there is no 8th......

Please give 1 scripture that says there are 2 comings.........

John 14:3---And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come AGAIN, and recieve you unto myself;that where I am, there ye may be also. (KJV) caps are mine

If Christ is speaking and says he is coming AGAIN that is twice. Again is not 1 time-how many do you think it is?

Westtexas

 

[Drew]

Is the rapture Biblical...definitely, but it's at the end of the tribulation. There are 2 comings... not three. Sorry

As you may know, I believe the scriptures do no teach of any rapture at all.

But let me ask you this: 1 Thess 4:16-17 refers to a coming of Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15 also refers to a coming of Jesus.

Do you think that these two texts are referring to the same "coming"?

 

[Heneni]

I have been trying to sort this 'rapture' thing out for myself, and what i have noticed is that I get very confused about the coming of the lord when I dont by paying attention to who jesus was talking to when he talked about his second coming. Its his SECOND coming for the jews. Its not the second coming for the gentiles. Jesus said he did not come (the first time, visibly) for the gentiles he came for the jews. So his second coming (visibly) cannot be for the gentiles but for the jews. So when he talks about his second coming its his second coming that the jews will witness, including the saved jews.

Statements to the jewish disciples about his second coming can not be understood together with statement about the coming of the lord made to the saved gentiles by paul. Paul never referred to the saved gentiles as disciples.


At this point in time i think that there will be no rapture for the jews even if they are born again. What might happen is that there will be a rapture for the saved gentiles first and possibly later a rapture for the saved jews.

Jesus came secretly for the gentiles. Most of the gentile world, did not know jesus was here the first time he came, and the saved gentiles will be taken away in the same way, secretly.

I need to study some more on this, but i have never felt that the entire doctrine of rapture is 'fake' and 'false'

God bless
heneni

 

[Drew]

I have been trying to sort this 'rapture' thing out for myself, and what i have noticed is that I get very confused about the coming of the lord when I dont by paying attention to who jesus was talking to when he talked about his second coming. Its his SECOND coming for the jews. Its not the second coming for the gentiles. Jesus said he did not come (the first time, visibly) for the gentiles he came for the jews. So his second coming (visibly) cannot be for the gentiles but for the jews. So when he talks about his second coming its his second coming that the jews will witness, including the saved jews.

I doubt it - and I have never heard anyone make such an argument. Please do not mistake me - that, in and of itself does not make it wrong. It is true that Jesus makes statements about his mission being to the Jews. But I think that this really means that He came to act as Israel - to fulfill her covenantal obligations on the cross. You see, I think that Jesus is the faithful Israelite - the one Israelite who fulfills the covenant obligation of the Jews to be a "blessing to the nations". How does he do this? By going to the cross. But, in so doing, He brings the possibility of salvation to the whole world.

But I do not think that Jesus' first coming in any sense was "not for the Gentiles" as your post implies. I think you are reading too much into Jesus' statements about "coming to Isreal" and not to the Gentiles. He is not saying His first coming was not of benefit to Gentile - He is saying that in his first coming, He fulfills the covenant obligations of the Jew.

Statements to the jewish disciples about his second coming can not be understood together with statement about the coming of the lord made to the saved gentiles by paul.

I seen contradiction here - can you be more specific.

 

[Heneni]

I seen contradiction here - can you be more specific.

When you read the gospels and the book of acts the jews were never divided over a rapture, they were divided over the resurrection. I dont see anywhere in the gospels or the book of acts, where the jews were arguing about a rapture.The last thing the disciples heard was that jesus was coming back the way he left, so they dont think he is going to take them up in the air. They believe that when jesus comes again, he will resurrect them and they will become a nation and be united under their leader.

The only folk that are divided about a rapture are the gentiles! That is why paul addressed it in the book of Tess.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Is the rapture Biblical...definitely, but it's at the end of the tribulation. There are 2 comings... not three. Sorry

As you may know, I believe the scriptures do no teach of any rapture at all.

But let me ask you this: 1 Thess 4:16-17 refers to a coming of Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15 also refers to a coming of Jesus.

Do you think that these two texts are referring to the same "coming"?

Let's go to the scriptures to find out;

1Thes.4
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor.15
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So in 1Thes. we find that the dead shall rise at the sounding of a trump. And we find in 1Cor., it will be the LAST trumpet, the 7th trump.

Now let's add a few more scriptures;

2 Tim.4
[8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Now we read that a crown of righteousness will be given to ALL that love Christs' appearing, and it will be at a certain day.

Heb.11
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So ALL of the saints that died with a good report did NOT receive the promise yet. Paul says ALL will receive it at the same time. Let's find the time when ALL will receive their promise.

Rev.11
[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

There are ONLY 7 trumpets that are to be sounded. Above the angel has just blown the 7th trumpet. Let's read what happens next, and let's not forget when the dead will be raised AND ALL that died with a good report will get their reward.

[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Looks like Jesus is going to be REALLY busy after that 7th trumpet blows.

He's coming back to render His wrath upon the earth AFTER the blowing of the 7th trumpet.

He will be raising and judging the dead AFTER the blowing of the 7th trumpet.

And He will be bestowing the reward to ALL that died with a good report AFTER the blowing of the 7th trumpet.

So to answer your question, "Do you think that these two texts are referring to the same "coming"?", I would have to say YES!



.

 

[Drew]

So to answer your question, "Do you think that these two texts are referring to the same "coming"?", I would have to say YES!

I agree - the two texts are indeed referring to the same "coming" of Jesus. I was not so much asking the question because I did not have a position on the matter, I wanted to see what another particular poster thought about the issue.

I thought there were those out there who think that Jesus comes back once to rapture us and then, after a delay, returns a second time. And that they would see the 1 Thess 4 text as the first return and the 1 Cor 15 texts as the second return.

 

[westtexas]

Maybe my view is too simplistic but I view the first coming of Christ as his earthly ministry. Christ came here with one purpose-to atone for our sins on Calvary. I believe scripture to say His second coming will be after the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet, and His purpose this time will be to execute judgement on the unbelievers and to fulfill our salvation.

Hebrews 9:28--So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (KJV)

Westtexas

 

[Biblereader]

The second coming of Jesus Christ is biblical. It will happen.
The KJV Bible says it, and that's all you need to prepare for. Get ready to meet Jesus in the air,
and then be with Him forevermore.

IF you are born again. Read Romans 10:9-12