Is the rapture Biblical?

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by ^Lazarus

where was Stephens pre-tribulation rapture?

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Looks like, no pre-tribulation rapture for Stephen

And what about James? where was His Pre-tribulation rapture?

Act 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
Act 12:2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

Nope, no Pre-tribulation rapture for him either it seems.

And what about the millions upon millions of saints the roman catholic church killed during its 1260 year reign over the kings of the earth? where was their pre-tribulation rapture?

Read Foxes Book Of Martyrs, then ask yourself: where was Their Pre-tribulation rapture?

See, the truth ain't always pretty, truth is, if there were a such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture, then it would have happened before the tribulation of the saints started, this pre-tribulation rapture nonsense is just about the stupidest false doctrine I've ever heard of, how can one after considering all the martyrs over the past 2000 years even entertain such nonsense for even a moment?
It's like looking at a huge pile of dead bodies who were victims of the tribulation and then looking at a friend and saying: boy i sure am glad we're gonna be long gone on the pre-tribulation magic carpet ride before this ever starts happening

Excellent point! There are even some who realize the pre-tribulation rapture is erroneous, yet STILL believe no Christian will be martyred during the Tribulation. And they use Luke 21:18 in connection with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in Daniel 3 to document this. But they fail to understand the Fifth Seal:

Revelation 6:9 "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of
those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had
maintained."

Many say the Altar of Burnt Offering is not seen in Heaven's temple. This is not true. In fact, the Altar of Burnt Offering is the altar where these souls are crying out. Look at these Old Testament references and notice where the blood of sacrifices was put:

Leviticus 8:15 Moses slaughtered the bull and took some of the blood, and with his finger he put it on all the horns of the altar to purify the altar. He poured out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. So he consecrated it to make atonement for it."

Exodus 29:12 "Take some of the bull's blood and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour out the rest of it at the base of the altar."

Leviticus 4:18 "He is to put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting. The rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting."

Leviticus 9:9 "His sons brought the blood to him, and he dipped his finger into the blood and put it on the horns of the altar; the rest of the blood he poured out at the base of the altar."

These martyrs mentioned in the Fifth Seal are sacrifices - this is the reason their souls are represented as being under the altar (of Burnt Offering) because that is the only place where the blood of sacrifices was stored.

Many of God’s elect (firstfruits - 144,000) will be martyred in the Tribulation; as well as many others who choose to believe in Jesus Christ. Some will not, as mentioned in Luke 21:18. But many will. This is explained here:

Revelation 13:10 "If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints".

 

[^Lazarus]

Excellent point! There are even some who realize the pre-tribulation rapture is erroneous, yet STILL believe no Christian will be martyred during the Tribulation. And they use Luke 21:18 in connection with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in Daniel 3 to document this. But they fail to understand the Fifth Seal:

I'm glad to see that you're not taken in by the pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine, but my point was that millions have already been martyred during the tribulation, it started with the stoning of Stephen.

Revelation 6:9 "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of
those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had
maintained."

Many say the Altar of Burnt Offering is not seen in Heaven's temple. This is not true. In fact, the Altar of Burnt Offering is the altar where these souls are crying out. Look at these Old Testament references and notice where the blood of sacrifices was put:

The sweet savour of the burnt offering ascends up into heaven as a sweet savour unto The Lord, its not already there, And the alter is a place of death not a place of life, think of the martyrs already burned at the stake, the alter in rev 6:9 is the earth, the martyrs are under the earth, the place where they were martyred, And they are to remain there "until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Many of God’s elect (firstfruits - 144,000) will be martyred in the Tribulation; as well as many others who choose to believe in Jesus Christ. Some will not, as mentioned in Luke 21:18. But many will.

It's kinda late in the season for first fruits don't you think? i do, the first fruits rose just shortly after Christ:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Paul even gives us the order:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

See the order? Christ first, then the firstfruits, just the way it's laid out in mathew, then afterward "they that are Christ's at his coming. "

Yup I'd say it's a little late in the season for first fruits, my dad was a farmer, and you just don't get firstfruits this late in the season, its time now for the late harvest, how bout some good ole grapes, they gotta be bruised you know to make good wine, or how bout some good ole dry corn, you gotta grind it up to make meal, i think we already had some roasted ears of young tender corn way back during the dark ages.

Oh and i almost forgot about the wheat, well it was ground into fine flower at the thrashing floors of the arenas of the Roman Empire in the millstones of the lions teeth.

 

[Cornelius]

You know I personally have no real rapture view.. but the interesting thing is this. out of every single bible scholar that believes we are living in endtimes, Those who specialise in bible prophecy and are considered experts, I can't find one who is not a pre-triber. They are all pretrib.

Just to name a few from the top. Jeffrey, Van Impe, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, Mark Hitchock, Joel Rosenberg, David Wilkerson, Chuck Missler etc.. yes these men are of the futurist view. The point is I can't find one expert of this view who is not pre trib. I find it interesting.

We all know that the Old Testament is our "type and shadow" according to 1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, , so I know that we must look for the answer in there.

What did God always do when Israel went "off the road" with Him? He sent them into tribulation. He always gave them over to a Beast-nation. When they repented, what did He do? He always saved them from the Beast-nation. We can look at this example over and over again. Daniel is a great example. Nebuchadnezzar is the type and shadow for the Beast and the seven years are also there:

2Ki 25:1 And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he and all his army, against Jerusalem, and encamped against it; and they built forts against it round about.

and off they go into Babylon. (tribulation) 2Ki 25:9 And he burnt the house of Jehovah, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, even every great house, burnt he with fire.
2Ki 25:10 And all the army of the Chaldeans, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down the walls of Jerusalem round about.
2Ki 25:11 And the residue of the people that were left in the city, and those that fell away, that fell to the king of Babylon, and the residue of the multitude, did Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carry away captive.

2Ch 36:7 Nebuchadnezzar also carried of the vessels of the house of Jehovah to Babylon, and put them in his temple at Babylon.
WE are the vessels in the house of the Lord today.

We know the Nebuchadnezzar is a type for the Beast :

Dan 4:24 this is the interpretation, O king, and it is the decree of the Most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
Dan 4:25 that thou shalt be driven from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, (The Bible tells us Mat 13:38 and the field is the world;) and thou shalt be made to eat grass (The Bible tells us: Isa 51:12 ... the son of man that shall be made as grass; ) as oxen, and shalt be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee; (Seven years = the time for the coming tribulation ) till thou know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

God always saves His people when they are in tribulation , but the Bible does not show that He ever prevents or "raptures" them from it before the time. We always go through it, until we repent , back to HIS ways.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Again I have no real view. Just a truth seeker.

So what is the consensus then.. a mid trib rapture..? No rapture Or should I be shaving my neck for the guillotine.

So the antichrist comes into power.. I'm still here what is going to happen to me.

I don't know how we can argue rapture on this site anyway when 90% of the members are preterists and they believe all this stuff happend via Nero anyway.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by ^Lazarus
I'm glad to see that you're not taken in by the pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine, but my point was that millions have already been martyred during the tribulation, it started with the stoning of Stephen. i think we already had some roasted ears of young tender corn way back during the dark ages. Oh and i almost forgot about the wheat, well it was ground into fine flower at the thrashing floors of the arenas of the Roman Empire in the millstones of the lions teeth.

So you consider the Tribulation as being the span of time from Pentecost Day up until now? I believe the persecution you speak of (church history) is of course a time of tribulation, but is differentiated from the "Great Tribulation" as mentioned in Revelation 12 & 13. Read through Revelation chapter 12 and notice the sequence:


1. Woman in travail, dragon ready to devour child

2. Woman gives birth

3. Dragon tries to kill Jesus (remember Herod?)

4. Jesus taken to Heaven (Resurrection; Ascension)

5. Woman flees to desert

6. The devil was cast out of Heaven (Christ defeated him - Hebrews 2:14)

7. He preyed upon the woman (after Resurrection - the "woman" is the church - Christians)

8. Dragon sends a great flood of persecution out of his mouth (recall church history - infiltrates church - i.e. Dark Ages)

9. The Earth helped the woman. After a long period of persecution, the EARTH ITSELF helped "THE WOMAN" (including the great Christian nation God opened up in 1776). This thrust the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus throughout the World on a scale never before seen)

10. When the devil saw that he failed, he became enraged and planned (is planning) an all out war on the saints (the remnant); which occurs during the Great Tribulation

I believe it is AFTER the Earth helped the woman (i.e. AFTER Satan failed again), the dragon (Satan) becomes enraged at the woman and goes off to MAKE WAR against the remnant. The persecution and "tribulation" you are speaking of occurs throughout church history, but there is obviously ANOTHER time of Tribulation which occurs AFTER the Earth helped the woman once the authority of the RCC was broken. (i.e. - 1. The dragon's flood of persecution [from Stephen throughout Dark Ages], 2. Earth helped woman [RCC authority broken (DEADLY WOUND) - land of Christian nations flourish]; 3. Dragon enraged because of this and makes war against the remnant [future Great Tribulation]

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest the remnant of her offspring -- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The war is described in Revelation 13:7:

"He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation." (Revelation 13:7)

Not a big difference, I just see a clear distinction between the persecution throughout church history (Revelation 12:13-15) and the dragon's final showdown with the remnant (Revelation 12:17) :D.

 

[Solo]

Various "kingdoms" of the world have persecuted Christians to the point of death. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs and you will see this truth. What can be "Greater Tribulation" than when a Christian brother or sister is tortured and murdered?

Why did Jesus say that the Great Tribulation is a time that has not been since the beginning, nor will be after such a time as this? Here is the answer:

The "Great Tribulation" will be a world wide persecution of ALL Christians by the son of perdition, the desolation of abomination, the antichrist and His world dictates.

 

[walter]

Originally posted by ^Lazarus
I'm glad to see that you're not taken in by the pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine, but my point was that millions have already been martyred during the tribulation, it started with the stoning of Stephen. i think we already had some roasted ears of young tender corn way back during the dark ages. Oh and i almost forgot about the wheat, well it was ground into fine flower at the thrashing floors of the arenas of the Roman Empire in the millstones of the lions teeth.

So you consider the Tribulation as being the span of time from Pentecost Day up until now? I believe the persecution you speak of (church history) is of course a time of tribulation, but is differentiated from the "Great Tribulation" as mention in Revelation 12 & 13. Read through Revelation chapter 12 and notice the sequence:


1. Woman in travail, dragon ready to devour child

2. Woman gives birth

3. Dragon tries to kill Jesus (remember Herod?)

4. Jesus taken to Heaven (Resurrection; Ascension)

5. Woman flees to desert

6. The devil was cast out of Heaven (Christ defeated him - Hebrews 2:14)

7. He preyed upon the woman (after Resurrection - the "woman" is the church - Christians)

8. Dragon sends a great flood of persecution out of his mouth (recall church history - infiltrates church - i.e. Dark Ages)

9. The Earth helped the woman. After a long period of persecution, the EARTH ITSELF helped "THE WOMAN" (including the great Christian nation God opened up in 1776). This thrust the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus throughout the World on a scale never before seen)

10. When the devil saw that he failed, he became enraged and planned (is planning) an all out war on the saints (the remnant); which occurs during the Great Tribulation

I believe it is AFTER the Earth helped the woman (i.e. AFTER Satan failed again), the dragon (Satan) becomes enraged at the woman and goes off to MAKE WAR against the remnant. The persecution and "tribulation" you are speaking of occurs throughout church history, but there is obviously ANOTHER time of Tribulation which occurs AFTER the Earth helped the woman once the authority of the RCC was broken. (i.e. - 1. The dragon's flood of persecution [from Stephen throughout Dark Ages], 2. Earth helped woman [RCC authority broken (DEADLY WOUND) - land of Christian nations flourish]; 3. Dragon enraged because of this and makes war against the remnant [future Great Tribulation]

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest the remnant of her offspring -- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The war is described in Revelation 13:7:

"He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation." (Revelation 13:7)

Not a big difference, I just see a clear distinction between the persecution throughout church history (Revelation 12:13-15) and the dragon's final showdown with the remnant (Revelation 12:17) :D.

With all due respect Osgiliath, the "woman" (crown of 12 stars?)is Israel and the remnant is what is left of Israel.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

But when all Christian's were persecuted in the past .. this was mans rath.

The seven years of tribulation is gods rath. Why will god lay this rath on his own church ? Why does the church have to some how be purified by being prosecuted and killed during tribulation??

I am talking about existing believers before tribulation not those who may come to faith and be killed during tribuation.

 

[Solo]

But when all Christian's were persecuted in the past .. this was mans rath.

The seven years of tribulation is gods rath. Why will god lay this rath on his own church ? Why does the church have to some how be purified by being prosecuted and killed during tribulation??

I am talking about existing believers before tribulation not those who may come to faith and be killed during tribuation.

No where in Scripture does it teach that the "Great Tribulation" mentioned by Jesus is God's wrath. The "Great Tribulation" is the wrath of the son of perdition upon all of God's children. Also, the tribulation does nothing to "purify" anyone. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ and His resurrection is ALL that any believer needs to be "purified"!

Who started the "goofy" idea that believers would escape the son of perdition's persecution of believers? What a bogus lie of the devil!!!!!!!

 

[^Lazarus]

I believe it is AFTER the Earth helped the woman (i.e. AFTER Satan failed again), the dragon (Satan) becomes enraged at the woman and goes off to MAKE WAR against the remnant. The persecution and "tribulation" you are speaking of occurs throughout church history, but there is obviously ANOTHER time of Tribulation which occurs AFTER the Earth helped the woman once the authority of the RCC was broken. (i.e. - 1. The dragon's flood of persecution [from Stephen throughout Dark Ages], 2. Earth helped woman [RCC authority broken (DEADLY WOUND) - land of Christian nations flourish]; 3. Dragon enraged because of this and makes war against the remnant [future Great Tribulation]

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest the remnant of her offspring -- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The war is described in Revelation 13:7:

"He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation." (Revelation 13:7)

Not a big difference, I just see a clear distinction between the persecution throughout church history (Revelation 12:13-15) and the dragon's final showdown with the remnant (Revelation 12:17) :D.

Yup, we're not very far apart on our views, i believe the RCC was the seventh head of the beast, but now we're waiting for the eighth, it is of the seven you know, all seven, not just one of the seven,
I'm not sure what it will be yet, but i believe its already here, it's just waiting to show its ugly head until they can cook up another major chaotic event so they can offer us the mark as the solution to all our problems, And it will be publicized as the next best thing to sliced bread,
I can just almost hear the image of the beast now saying "Oh, you can track your kids anywhere on the planet with it 24/7 via computer and satellite, And you wont have to carry money around with you anymore so you wont have to worry about getting robbed or mugged, Yup it's all we need, Oh it's so wonderful",
Can't you just hear the propaganda machine now? and then finally the image will say something like "it"s now mandatory for everyone to be chipped", then comes the climax of the dragons wrath, yup i think it'll be worse than the previous tribulation, 7 times worse i believe, but its all still part of the whole.

edited to correct spelling

>)

 

[nonbelieverforums]

But when all Christian's were persecuted in the past .. this was mans rath.

The seven years of tribulation is gods rath. Why will god lay this rath on his own church ? Why does the church have to some how be purified by being prosecuted and killed during tribulation??

I am talking about existing believers before tribulation not those who may come to faith and be killed during tribuation.

No where in Scripture does it teach that the "Great Tribulation" mentioned by Jesus is God's wrath. The "Great Tribulation" is the wrath of the son of perdition upon all of God's children. Also, the tribulation does nothing to "purify" anyone. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ and His resurrection is ALL that any believer needs to be "purified"!

Who started the "goofy" idea that believers would escape the son of perdition's persecution of believers? What a bogus lie of the devil!!!!!!!

Hey solo be nice..I'm only asking questions.. so is there a rapture of any kind mid, post??

 

[Vic C.]

... I don't know how we can argue rapture on this site anyway when 90% of the members are preterists and they believe all this stuff happend via Nero anyway.

i will respectfully ask you once again to please refrain from such comments because we know that to be not true at all. :gah

I'm not, you aren't. Os isn't, Solo isn't, ^Lazarus isn't, Cornelius and Walter and Bonnie aren't either and I could name dozens more.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by walter
Osgiliath, the "woman" (crown of 12 stars?)is Israel and the remnant is what is left of Israel.

After the New Covenant replaced the Old, who is Israel? Who are the saints? The remnant?

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: Yes, only if you have been circumcised in your heart are you now a Jew; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28,29)

And who are the remnant?

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of the remnant of her offspring -- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Those who hold to the testimony of who?

 

[^Lazarus]

Getting back to the OP.

Is the rapture Biblical?

No it's not.

Is this video presenting the rapture in a Biblical like fashion?

Since the bible does not mention the word rapture I would have to say no again, its a totally made up figment of someones vivid imagination,

lets assume for a moment that the catching up spoken of by Paul in 1th 4:15-18 is a separate event apart from the resurrection, lets look at what Jesus had to say about it:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Notice he said “even thus shall it be†not uneven thus.

Only eight souls were saved in the ark, And only three were saved from Sodom and Gomorrah, but lets look now at the deal made between The Lord and Abraham about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah:

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Gen 18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Gen 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
Gen 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
Gen 18:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
Gen 18:29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
Gen 18:30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
Gen 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Ok, so, he wont destroy it for the sake of ten, and I figure the chances of me being one of those nine or less still left at the coming of The Lord are pretty slim, I figure I'll already be dead by then, seeing that millions have died before me, and looking at that track record, most likely, millions will die after me.

Less than ten, not much of a rapture if you ask me, its the resurrection that I'm looking forward
to:

oh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Not the pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine, not any of the other false doctrines (and there are many), But the true genuine Word Of God Last Day Resurrection, of which the catching up spoken of by Paul is only a small part, thats what I'm looking forward to.

 

[Vic C.]

But when all Christian's were persecuted in the past .. this was mans rath.

The seven years of tribulation is gods rath. Why will god lay this rath on his own church ? Why does the church have to some how be purified by being prosecuted and killed during tribulation??

I am talking about existing believers before tribulation not those who may come to faith and be killed during tribuation.

No where in Scripture does it teach that the "Great Tribulation" mentioned by Jesus is God's wrath. The "Great Tribulation" is the wrath of the son of perdition upon all of God's children. Also, the tribulation does nothing to "purify" anyone. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ and His resurrection is ALL that any believer needs to be "purified"!

Who started the "goofy" idea that believers would escape the son of perdition's persecution of believers? What a bogus lie of the devil!!!!!!!

Yes Solo and I are much on the same page here. There will be a growing number of believers being persecuted in the future and it won't be from God. This persecution will be followed by the Wrath of God, which we will have no part of due to either protection or removal.

It is important to understand the nature and origins (and thus, differences) of satanic persecution and Godly Wrath. One is allowed by God and one IS from God.

 

[walter]

Originally posted by walter
Osgiliath, the "woman" (crown of 12 stars?)is Israel and the remnant is what is left of Israel.

After the New Covenant replaced the Old, who is Israel? Who are the saints? The remnant?

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: Yes, only if you have been circumcised in your heart are you now a Jew; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28,29)

And who are the remnant?

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of the remnant of her offspring -- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Those who hold to the testimony of who?

The scriptures you cite do not uphold your point. Jesus was saying that if we believe in Him we are counted worthy and are grafted in. We DO NOT REPLACE anyone.
Jesus was also saying that just because you call yourself a Jew or a believer that does not make you one but it is your inward heart that makes you God's.
Israel is Israel. It is the height of ego to think we replace God's people.
If you will truly seek objectively you will see that through vanity and ego trusting Christians have been misled.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by walter
The scriptures you cite do not uphold your point. Jesus was saying that if we believe in Him we are counted worthy and are grafted in. We DO NOT REPLACE anyone.
Jesus was also saying that just because you call yourself a Jew or a believer that does not make you one but it is your inward heart that makes you God's.
Israel is Israel. It is the height of ego to think we replace God's people.
If you will truly seek objectively you will see that through vanity and ego trusting Christians have been misled.

Walter, reread my post. If that isn't enough to explain it, I can't help you further.

 

[walter]

Originally posted by walter
The scriptures you cite do not uphold your point. Jesus was saying that if we believe in Him we are counted worthy and are grafted in. We DO NOT REPLACE anyone.
Jesus was also saying that just because you call yourself a Jew or a believer that does not make you one but it is your inward heart that makes you God's.
Israel is Israel. It is the height of ego to think we replace God's people.
If you will truly seek objectively you will see that through vanity and ego trusting Christians have been misled.

Walter, reread my post. If that isn't enough to explain it, I can't help you further.

Israel is not excluded from believing the testimony of Jesus. I maintain that christians (a man given name) are the younger siblings and do not replace Israel. If you do not believe christians replaced Israel, my apologies.

 

[^Lazarus]

I don't know how we can argue rapture on this site anyway when 90% of the members are preterists and they believe all this stuff happend via Nero anyway.

Well, I'm not a preterist, But I'm not a futurist either tho, I believe in essence what the original early Protestants believed, and that being that prophecy is unfolding little by little with each passing day,

I consider both preterists and futurists to be sitting in opposing ends of the same boat, a boat designed to keep both occupants from seeing what is really going on, and all the while headed for oblivion,
This boat was commissioned beginning sometime during the late 1500's by the roman catholic church in an effort to take the eyes of the protestants off her as being the whore of Babylon, and it has worked pretty well too so far, cause very few it seems are able to see through this smokescreen,

Here's how it works, preterism teaches that all is in the past, 70ad to be precise, while futurism teaches all is in the future, always in the future, and all the while where is what is not in focus? That's right, right in the middle 1260 years of killing and pillaging and nobody seems to care, or they're taught that it's insignificant,

The strangest thing to me tho is this boat has been shot full of holes over the years and it's sinking fast, but both its riders refuse to jump out and swim for safety, I guess their too busy shooting at each other, or sometimes shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by ^Lazarus
That's right, right in the middle 1260 years of killing and pillaging and nobody seems to care, or they're taught that it's insignificant,

Hehe. Thank goodness. I thought I was the loner here. Indeed. History says that in A.D. 533, the Roman Emperor gave the pope the authority to determine who could belong and who could not belong to the Holy Roman Empire. Within five years, the Ostrogoths, Heruli and Vandals, the three tribal nations that were part of the original 10 horns that divided the Roman Empire had been destroyed and the Holy Roman Empire functioned without theological (or any) obstruction. There was precisely 1,260 years (of severe persecution) after the destruction of the three horns, and the Holy Roman Empire collapsed during the French Revolution. The authority of the Church over the governments of Europe was finally broken in February, 1798. (i.e. the deadly wound). The seven heads are religious, because each head has a "blasphemous" name written on it. Blasphemous means that each head is rebellious toward God and His ways (which is blasphemy :D). That is why I believe the deadly wound was the collapse of the RCC in 1798. That along with the unprecedented spread of the Gospel was huge prophetically speaking. The collapse of the RCC and the "Earth helping the woman" happened almost simultaneously (i.e. 1776 AD - 1798 AD). I also believe this is when the First Seal was opened (subject for another thread )


Also, let's think about the big picture. Why would Revelation chapter 12, that covers the whole ball of wax, not include 2,000 years of church history? Were those saints who suffered greatly during that time insignificant? Are the remnant who persevered throughout 2,000 years of church history to be forgotten in God's Word; with nothing written about them at all? I don't think so. That's not God's style, and that egocentric attitude bugs me as well. It's not always about "me, me, me". ;)

Originally posted by walter
Israel is not excluded from believing the testimony of Jesus.

I never said they were. After the Cross, "whomsoever will" (biological descendents of Israel included). Believers in Jesus are heirs to the promise. Biologically speaking, they can be of ANY RACE. "Physical" ancestry is irrelevant.