Is The Trinity A Lie ?

[jasonc]

if one is three then three is one. they act In unison and also have positions and functions. unison is the function. I deny not the nature of the trinity. you are reading into something that isn't there. I was going to go into the malak YHWH is a preincarnate Christ.but the YHWH can never be the father. if he was then the Lord Jesus is a liar in that he said no man hath seen the father nor his shape.

I want the Hebrew on genesis three. I have never head that name in jewry as a name of god. it it was it would be mentioned.11:7 as well.

neither is us considered that today. I checked. as ramban explained it. in fact what vowels are you using to get

Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh

and consonants?

the consonants for the name of god, Yod, Hey, Vah, Hey.

 

[brother Paul]

Of course YHVH is His personal name...And of YHVH is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit then even if no one has ever seen the Father or heard is voice and pre-incarnate Word/Son is YHVH that does not mean that Jesus is a liar (God Forbid)

YHVH is the Father, and YHVH is the Word/Son, and YHVH is the Spirit (but there are not three YHVH's)....the Father is the Lord, the Son is the Lord, and the Spirit is the Lord (but there are not three Lords only one)...

I Am that I Am (אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה, ʾehyeh ʾašer ʾehyeh[ʔehˈje ʔaˈʃer ʔehˈje])...

From http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/YHVH/yhvh.html

 

[jasonc]

the Hebrew word I am? ok, jesus said he was the I am. ergo um. a messianic site for Christians. I know that sight but nothing there about the double of the havah

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/YHVH/yhvh.html

nothing. I already knew the fact that jesus linked himself to the I am. that is why they sought to kill him from then on.

 

[JLB]

that is the point. three as one.

No! The point is One as three!

Godhead is the Greek word meaning "Deity" and actually has nothing to do with the plurality of personae...He is the fulness of the deity dwelling bodily...also see John 1 "and He dwelt among us" (Dwelt is skeenoo...tabernacled)...the glory of the Father...

Now the word elohim is also used with plural personal pronouns when referring to angels or humans (it is written you are gods)...but refers to YHVH when it is written with singular personal pronouns.

“So Elohim (a plural), created man (mankind, a plural) in His (singular) own image, in the image (singular) of Elohim (plural) created He (singular) him, (singular generic), male and female (plural) created He (singular) them (plural).“ (parenthesis mine)

This is not confusing if the nature of the one and only God is also a unity of personae but if not then it is...

Rabbi Simeon commenting on Deuteronomy 6:4 asks, “Why is there a need of mentioning the Name of God three times in this verse?” Then he answers his own query for us when he says, “The first Lord is the Father above. The second is the stem of Jesse, the Messiah Who is to come from the family of Jesse through David. And the third is the Way below (meaning the Holy Spirit Who comes and shows us the way on earth) and these three are one.” (parenthesis mine)


Rabbi Nassi, much later though considered a sage by most Rabbinical Scholars, writing on Rosh HaShannah says, “…the three-fold sound of the ram’s horn which is sounded on Rosh HaShannah is an emblem of the three-fold nature of God.”

Though the word “trinity” never literally appears in scripture, the scripture makes it clear from the beginning, that the one (yachid) God is the Father, the Word, and the Spirit they are all the one God (echad), who’s Holy Name is constructed of three Hebrew characters, one being doubled, representing the dual nature of the Son, who tells Moses, His servant, whose name is also composed of three letters, that His name is Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, a threefold name, and refers to Himself as a plural again in both Genesis 3:22 and 11:7.


In Genesis 19:24 we see YHVH, (the Targumim call this person of YHVH “the Word“ or the Memra in the Hebrew/Aramaic), here on earth in the form of a man, and He is sitting in the tent of Abraham breaking bread, and this YHVH sends forth the two angels that are with Him (who also came in the forms of men), to rain fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, from YHVH who is in heaven! What? Are there two YHVH’s? God forbid! Yet YHVH manifest on earth sends the angels while YHVH rains down the fire and brimstone. All throughout the Torah we see this truth of this Unity of the Godhead revealed.

In Exodus 3, as pointed out earlier, the Angel of the Lord, calls Himself “the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”, from amidst the burning bush, thus He is also YHVH Himself manifest (the Word), and then Moses goes forth filled with the Spirit of God! If He were not the "I Am that I Am" then the Angel of the LORD is a blasphemous liar...but He is not...He is YHVH. Do you agree?

The Angel of The Lord is YHWH before He became flesh.

JLB

 

[jasonc]

Of course YHVH is His personal name...And of YHVH is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit then even if no one has ever seen the Father or heard is voice and pre-incarnate Word/Son is YHVH that does not mean that Jesus is a liar (God Forbid)

YHVH is the Father, and YHVH is the Word/Son, and YHVH is the Spirit (but there are not three YHVH's)....the Father is the Lord, the Son is the Lord, and the Spirit is the Lord (but there are not three Lords only one)...

I Am that I Am (אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה, ʾehyeh ʾašer ʾehyeh[ʔehˈje ʔaˈʃer ʔehˈje])...

From http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/YHVH/yhvh.html

I see YHWH as only the son, having the nature of the father in him in that he acts the same. the reason is that only the son was seen. minor difference.

 

[brother Paul]

So YHVH (the LORD) is not the Father? Or the Spirit? In your understanding?

 

[jasonc]

So YHVH (the LORD) is not the Father? Or the Spirit? In your understanding?

a name to describe the nature of how they act. but the dealing with man and the seeing of person is always JESUS. THE HOLY SPirit is listed as the spirit of god, or ruach kadosh and also its mentioned by david and aslo said about the prophets. its also the person of jesus, not the Father.

 

[Stan1953]

I did not watch that video Lewis. I don't have too. The truth is plain in scripture.
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one./(KJV)
Any other questions?

FYI, that scripture is properly rendered as follows;
For there are three that testify, the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.

 

[Stan1953]

The don't bite his tongue Pastor Gino Jennings answers questions about the lie of angels having sex with women in Genesis 6. He talks about the Trinity, he also talks about Genesis 1:26 the plural word Our. He also talks about Easter & Christmas he also talks about the image of Jesus that people has on the walls in their houses, and much much more.

How about the Readers Digest version on THIS OP, and your own opinion?

 

[Free]

I know Jasonc but what does God's word say? I only brought up that point because "Elohim" is not used in the shema...the question about
"echad" verses "yachid" was a side note (but if open to pluralities this is relevant to our discussion)...

This was of such concern to Rabbinical Jewish people early on. So much so that Maimonides changed every instance of "echad" to "yachid" in his 13 Principles...Why?

We have to be careful here to not make the Shema say more than it does. The Hebrew yachid refers to an absolute unity, that is, it means a singular one, an only one. But 'echad is the same as our English "one". It can refer to a singular one but it can also be a compound unity as seen in "one nation under God"--the reference is to just one nation but that nation has many millions of people.

What this means for the Shema then, is not that God is for certain a compound unity, but rather it leaves the door open for him to be a compound unity. The Shema is not a declaration of the nature of God (whether or not he is triune), rather it is simply a statement of monotheism. In other words, Deut 6:4 neither proves nor disproves the triune nature of God but it does leave it open as a possibility.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

for the little ones seeking truth, remember that all these arguments were non-existent before the roman group adopted the mother/son imagery and related from other pagans to bring them in under the joint power of the beast and the other.

remember also that in Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli circles, Redeemed in Yeshua, there is there none of these arguments either. (oh, they might sneak in now and then, but overall it is not even considered when the Scripture and truth is known from ABBA).

 

[Free]

for the little ones seeking truth, remember that all these arguments were non-existent before the roman group adopted the mother/son imagery and related from other pagans to bring them in under the joint power of the beast and the other.

remember also that in Hebrew, Jewish, Israeli circles, Redeemed in Yeshua, there is there none of these arguments either. (oh, they might sneak in now and then, but overall it is not even considered when the Scripture and truth is known from ABBA).

What are you getting at?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Believers who grow up knowing Hebrew have a tremendous benefit, and a lot can be learned from them peaceably.
The original Hebrew meanings of much of Scripture becomes remarkably clear and simple as it is learned.
A lot of the controversy since greek and latin etc etc started being used (centuries ago) literally just evaporates into nothing
as the Hebrew is learned, as Yhwh permits.

 

[Free]

Believers who grow up knowing Hebrew have a tremendous benefit, and a lot can be learned from them peaceably.
The original Hebrew meanings of much of Scripture becomes remarkably clear and simple as it is learned.
A lot of the controversy since greek and latin etc etc started being used (centuries ago) literally just evaporates into nothing
as the Hebrew is learned, as Yhwh permits.

I don't see how that has any bearing on the topic. The NT was written in Greek and at least some of it by Jews who obviously knew Hebrew. Even they seemed to wrestle with this.

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

I did not watch that video Lewis. I don't have too. The truth is plain in scripture.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one./(KJV)

Any other questions?

I read that the words after "tree bear witness" are not in the oldest manuscripts that they were actually added.

kicked.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

I don't see how that has any bearing on the topic. The NT was written in Greek and at least some of it by Jews who obviously knew Hebrew. Even they seemed to wrestle with this.

the Scripture that all the disciples of Yeshua had, was in Hebrew first, and perhaps Aramaic, and all with Hebrew thinking and phrases and acknowledgements of Yhwh and His Ways.
many Jews who believe in Yeshua today, and perhaps centuries past(I don't know yet) believe the N.T. also was first written, obviously to them, in Hebrew, or at the very very least from the Hebraic mindset --- with an understanding that the translations from the greek and latin did not carry over the original meaning in many ways.
there are some good home-school et al educational sites that go into much detail about the original Hebrew meanings , even carried over in the greek translations. and they all point out how damaging the greek way of thought and life was to the intent of Scripture and to the believers seeking the original meanings of Yeshua and His disciples.
as time and space permits, I'll try to locate some of those sites for your enjoyment , if you wish. Yhwh Willing.

 

[kickedoutofchurch]

Yhwh is not grasped by most Jews, and hardly any gentiles. He is so much more, so much different that we are able to think. and as to 1 john 5:7
sorry. that's a poor translation. the Hebrew way of language, life and thinking is so different, and english just doesn't get it.
(the greek intrusion (way of thinking and life) was not beneficial, but very deceptive and harmful)

Question - as I reading through the replies... Why are we always looking to man (scholars) when the Word tells us plainly that true believers have the ONE TRUE TEACHER inside us? I never could figure that one out... Shouldn't we be asking the Holy Spirit inside???

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

Just a thought...

With that in mind, are there any other verses that support the doctrine of the trinity other than the questionable one of 1 John 5:7? If you look it up on biblehub.com you can see that most have removed the added portions.

kicked

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

I read what Jesus said is required to know and learn the truth. in paraphrase or expanded meaning, if you can find it, is like this "My Father, ABBA, is delighted and joyful to teach you the truth about all things, IF and only IF you love Him more than everything and everyone else, even more than life itself, and are willing to always obey Him."
this is a combination of some verses, and like a paraphrase or expanded version ('expanded' meaning using more english words to bring out the full meaning instead of attempting a word for word translation that may miss the intended thought and meaning behind the whole).
i.e. seek ABBA, seek ABBA, seek ABBA --- He is Faithful and True.
and He has never disappointed me , nor as it is written "no one who trusts in Me will be disappointed" (I'll look for it later, Yhwh willing)

and yes, some other posters have posted in this or other threads that verse elsewhere that says like "and they will all know Me" .. "and no man will be their teacher" ...

which, I don't know right now, if their meaning on earth right now, or in the time to come....

 

[Free]

many Jews who believe in Yeshua today, and perhaps centuries past(I don't know yet) believe the N.T. also was first written, obviously to them, in Hebrew, or at the very very least from the Hebraic mindset --- with an understanding that the translations from the greek and latin did not carry over the original meaning in many ways.
there are some good home-school et al educational sites that go into much detail about the original Hebrew meanings , even carried over in the greek translations. and they all point out how damaging the greek way of thought and life was to the intent of Scripture and to the believers seeking the original meanings of Yeshua and His disciples.
as time and space permits, I'll try to locate some of those sites for your enjoyment , if you wish. Yhwh Willing.

This, I believe, is quite false. Jesus and the Apostles were Hellenistic Jews, greatly influenced by Greek culture. As such, there is simply no reason to believe that the NT wasn't written in Greek, with both Greek and Hebrew thought in mind.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Jesus_Hebrew/Greek_NT/greek_nt.html

Anyway, this is not the thread to discuss it since this is about the Trinity, which is mainly seen in the Greek NT.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Hence, we have learned very different things in our lives, maybe and maybe not incompatible things. Test everything is probably the best I can offer here, in continual prayer with Thanksgiving unto God, and ask Him for His Wisdom and Truth.

What He Teaches is far different from what men(except for His men) teach, even religious, or especially religious men.

And the reason this is in this thread, is the Jews I've met or read who understand trinity(and other aspects of Yhwh and ekklesia) have all understood it better than any gentiles or greeks I have ever met or read or heard about. (supported partly or more in Scripture - "God has entrusted Scripture to the Jews" and "Salvation has come to the gentiles through the Jews" (paraphrase perhaps. but simple meaning). Hence, seeking from them, if Yhwh permits even finding them, is quite a good undertaking, I think.