IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Chopper]

This thread is all about forgetting our preconceived idea's about who makes up a local church, and who or when will we go to be with our Lord for all eternity. We must learn from each other to form a new doctrine of end times that makes Biblical sense instead of twisting Scripture to meet our position.

Mike mentioned "lukewarm" Christians making up a local church. Who are they? Are they going to make it?

 

[OhFarouk]

See 1 Thessalonians 4.16-18.

Blessings.

 

[Chopper]

See 1 Thessalonians 4.16-18.

Blessings.

Great portion of Scripture, Lets talk about who's going to make it out of the local church.

 

[OhFarouk]

Great portion of Scripture, Lets talk about who's going to make it out of the local church.

The Epistle is addressed to Christians. It is further qualified by 'we who are alive and remain', who will join those who are 'asleep' (as with Stephen in Acts, a term which denotes death) in the meeting in the air.

This is what it says; but I don't want to get into an argument.

Blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

This thread is all about forgetting our preconceived idea's about who makes up a local church, and who or when will we go to be with our Lord for all eternity. We must learn from each other to form a new doctrine of end times that makes Biblical sense instead of twisting Scripture to meet our position.

Mike mentioned "lukewarm" Christians making up a local church. Who are they? Are they going to make it?

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(Mat 24:40-44)


And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (ALL, means ALL He mentioned above) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luk 21:34-36)

Rev_3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The churches are made up of different bodies and Jesus addressed the 7 located in Asia Minor (Turkey) He mentioned "ONE" being taken, one left so it's just not the Church but each person is examined if they are doing what they are suppose to be doing when He does come. (Matt 24, Luke 21)

The promise with 3 Scripture wittiness (I gave 3 places where it says this) leaving out what Paul said that we do Escape God's wrath to come, all indication is that those doing what God had called them to do faithfully will escape what is about to come on the whole earth.

As for being saved, Jesus or any other mention was given that a person not faithful as a believe would not get to be saved or have to go to hell. It just says they will have to face what is to come on the whole world.

I am taking a Pre-Trib position.

A Post trib position means of course we hang out while God trashes the planet, but the position of our standing with the Lord should not change as we should all obey and serve him.

I don't consider a Preterist view valid enough to mention. They put clear events as Hyperbole and make believe which is not acceptable. The stars will vanish and that is yet to happen.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

The Epistle is addressed to Christians. It is further qualified by 'we who are alive and remain', who will join those who are 'asleep' (as with Stephen in Acts, a term which denotes death) in the meeting in the air.

This is what it says; but I don't want to get into an argument.

Blessings.

I agree, no argument. What I'm after in this early stage of getting ready for what ever happens, rapture? In other words, all those who call themselves Christians going to make this "caught up" in the air or some of them, which ones.

 

[Chopper]

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(Mat 24:40-44)


And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (ALL, means ALL He mentioned above) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luk 21:34-36)

Rev_3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The churches are made up of different bodies and Jesus addressed the 7 located in Asia Minor (Turkey) He mentioned "ONE" being taken, one left so it's just not the Church but each person is examined if they are doing what they are suppose to be doing when He does come. (Matt 24, Luke 21)

The promise with 3 Scripture wittiness (I gave 3 places where it says this) leaving out what Paul said that we do Escape God's wrath to come, all indication is that those doing what God had called them to do faithfully will escape what is about to come on the whole earth.

As for being saved, Jesus or any other mention was given that a person not faithful as a believe would not get to be saved or have to go to hell. It just says they will have to face what is to come on the whole world.

I am taking a Pre-Trib position.

A Post trib position means of course we hang out while God trashes the planet, but the position of our standing with the Lord should not change as we should all obey and serve him.

I don't consider a Preterist view valid enough to mention. They put clear events as Hyperbole and make believe which is not acceptable. The stars will vanish and that is yet to happen.

Mike.

OK Mike, I for one like your Scriptures. Correct me if I'm wrong. You are saying that each person in our experimental church, must be obedient to what Christ has called us to live in order to make the first "gathering". Those who are not obedient will not go up but enter the first half of the trib. Correct?

 

[reba]

I will not be participating in this thread...
But i do wish to keep an eye on it.... Lets each try and remember not to post, post after post of the same answer or question ... please work to keep a running dialog. Keep in touch Chopper....

 

[Brother Mike]

OK Mike, I for one like your Scriptures. Correct me if I'm wrong. You are saying that each person in our experimental church, must be obedient to what Christ has called us to live in order to make the first "gathering". Those who are not obedient will not go up but enter the first half of the trib. Correct?

When I get back from Church tonight, I'll share the dream I believe the Lord gave me about the end time and right at the 6th and 7th seal.

I'll tell you what the Lord shared with me real quick about His people V.S those that are not His.

His People follow him because he called them sheep.
His people hear his voice and don't follow strangers.
His People are led by the Spirit of God being sons and (Daughters) of God.
His people live their life as if He is Lord.

This is what He said to me............

"Many that call me Lord think of me as a system that is in place to avoid the consequences of what comes after death. I am a person, not a system and when I said in the Word that to believe on ME that justify the ungodly, the Me is a person. My plans for them, my will, my Church think of me as I am real and not a system to follow. If you believe on me, then I am Lord and those that believe I am Lord conduct everything they do with me in Mind."

I will share the dream when i get back.

Mike.

 

[Narwhalist]

This thread is all about forgetting our preconceived idea's about who makes up a local church, and who or when will we go to be with our Lord for all eternity. We must learn from each other to form a new doctrine of end times that makes Biblical sense instead of twisting Scripture to meet our position.

Mike mentioned "lukewarm" Christians making up a local church. Who are they? Are they going to make it?

Hello Chopper. I like this thread. This is a great idea. One thing though we must take into consideration before we start, in my opinion, is something that has given me a lot of trouble. When was the book of Revelation written, in the 90's AD or before 70 AD and the destruction of the temple. If the book was written in the 90's then Revelation is a book of prophesies that still have not come to be but if it was written in the 60's, then most of the prophesies of the book could have already happened except the 2nd coming of Jesus. I've struggled with this.
Why does Revelation say "these things must have soon," and why is there no mention of the destruction of the temple in the book?

 

[Chopper]

I agree with this. The Lord is not a wife beater. Shall he come, get his bride and then beat the crap out of her in the great tribulation? No sir. Brother Mike, thank you for providing the additional witnesses and making that point! It is a very valid point!

Post trib views, that the taking of His bride comes at the same time as judgement...who would populate the Millennial reign? ;) There is so many scriptures which warn us of a pre trib...ignored when I have posted them before.

Chopper asked:


This is a durn good question! Thank you Chopper. I have thought about this and I have come across a scripture referencing crowns which will be given to some. One is said to be given to those who...are especially happy of His return or looking forward to it or something of that nature. I'm sorry, I do not have the scripture at hand, and may not be quoting it exactly right...but the impression I got from it was that...perhaps those believing and looking forward to the rapture. Perhaps, only perhaps...that some Christians who do not necessarily believe in a pre-trib rapture but are otherwise good Christians and close with the Lord, will get raptured, while perhaps the lukewarm Christians...some will be left behind? Some will have to be able to spread the Word of the Lord during the tribulation. Fence sitters? Lukewarm? Those who have heard but not obeyed?

I have to run out the door, but will try to find an exact scripture on this later and post again.

I like that Edward, at first glance, RIGHT ON!

 

[Chopper]

Hello Chopper. I like this thread. This is a great idea. One thing though we must take into consideration before we start, in my opinion, is something that has given me a lot of trouble. When was the book of Revelation written, in the 90's AD or before 70 AD and the destruction of the temple. If the book was written in the 90's then Revelation is a book of prophesies that still have not come to be but if it was written in the 60's, then most of the prophesies of the book could have already happened except the 2nd coming of Jesus. I've struggled with this.
Why does Revelation say "these things must have soon," and why is there no mention of the destruction of the temple in the book?

Wow, good question, very good question!! I, and probably others will have an answer for you.

 

[Chopper]

When I get back from Church tonight, I'll share the dream I believe the Lord gave me about the end time and right at the 6th and 7th seal.

I'll tell you what the Lord shared with me real quick about His people V.S those that are not His.

His People follow him because he called them sheep.
His people hear his voice and don't follow strangers.
His People are led by the Spirit of God being sons and (Daughters) of God.
His people live their life as if He is Lord.

This is what He said to me............

"Many that call me Lord think of me as a system that is in place to avoid the consequences of what comes after death. I am a person, not a system and when I said in the Word that to believe on ME that justify the ungodly, the Me is a person. My plans for them, my will, my Church think of me as I am real and not a system to follow. If you believe on me, then I am Lord and those that believe I am Lord conduct everything they do with me in Mind."

I will share the dream when i get back.

Mike.

OK Mike, I'm very tired. In Mass. it's 8:30 and I'm beat. So far I think this thread is going to bring us closer in fellowship than ever before. This is a good thing for our forum. Very positive and loving. I'm excited with the posts so far. Mike, I can't wait to hear your story, blessings my brother.

 

[Chopper]

I will not be participating in this thread...
But i do wish to keep an eye on it.... Lets each try and remember not to post, post after post of the same answer or question ... please work to keep a running dialog. Keep in touch Chopper....

That's fine Reba, I'll keep you posted. Jump in when ever the Spirit moves.

 

[turnorburn]

A new doctrine..

tob

 

[Eugene]

This thread is all about forgetting our preconceived idea's about who makes up a local church, and who or when will we go to be with our Lord for all eternity. We must learn from each other to form a new doctrine of end times that makes Biblical sense instead of twisting Scripture to meet our position.

Mike mentioned "lukewarm" Christians making up a local church. Who are they? Are they going to make it?

Mike mentioned "lukewarm" Christians making up a local church. Who are they? Are they going to make it?[/quote]

Hi Brother Chopper. There are different groups seen in heaven with Jesus at different times; John describes them starting in Revelation 4:1 of things to be hereafter from that point in time.

Basically all will arrive in the same order; the dead in Christ first, and then them of each group which are alive to meet them in the air. The qualifications are shown in the judgment of the church shown in the seven churches of Revelation Chapters Two and Three. Some are shown to have crowns while others are given a white stone, and these dependent upon our walk. I’ll leave off here fro the time being.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Narwhalist]

Found it! It is in 2 Timothy...

2 Timothy 4:8
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing./(KJV)

Now at first glance this could be construed to mean almost anything if picked apart. But I feel as if it means something specific. So I thought about it, and the rapture did come to mind. A lot of people believe in the Lord and love God, but also, a lot of people (even Christians) make fun of the rapture and denounce those who do believe in it.

Could this be what it is talking about? Perhaps. There is not much unity within the body, nor brotherly love. A lot of hubris in posts from Christians. We all love the Lord, but we are all not excited about a pre-trib rapture! There is mention in scriptures about...the least in heaven and things of that nature, so...some will get crowns that others do not, and who knows what else. This is a speculation on my part, admitted. But something to consider and research for ourselves. What say ye, fellow pre-tribbers?

I will agree with you Edward. There isn't a lot of unity within the body of the church.

 

[Narwhalist]

WOW!

Quoting Matthew 24 to support a Pre-Trib position.

In the same breath, just a few verse's prior, Jesus clearly teaches us -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

We have the last trumpet.

We have the Coming of the Lord.

We have the gathering of the Church at the resurrection.

It's all here.


The same thing Paul taught us in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 as well as 2 Thessalonians 2:1:-4

All three scriptures teach us that Jesus will come for His Church after the Tribulation, at the end of the age.

Furthermore, Paul teaches that all the Church will be resurrected at the same time, BEFORE THE RAPTURE.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

All those who are Christ's will go with Him at the same time.

At the end of the age.


JLB

Hello. You mentioned that Matthew 24:40-44 supports Pre-Trib position of the Rapture. Bear with me now, as I will explain myself and let me know what you think. Matthew 24:36-39 talks about the flood that occurred during Noah's time. It mentions that people were carrying on until the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and took them away. The ones left were Noah and his family. Thus the ones taken away were the sinners. Verses 40-44 then mention that's how it will be during the coming of the Son of Man - two men will be on the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be left and one taken away. The "rapture" states that believer will be taken away, not the sinners, which is the total opposite of what happened during Noah's time. Consider this. So, verses 40-44 cannot be talking about a rapture, because Jesus said it will be like Noah's time, were the sinner was destroyed in a flood and the believer remained. So of the man and the woman in these verses, Jesus is saying the sinner will be destroyed by judgment and those who remained will be saved through believe in Him.

 

[reba]

I have typed a bunch of lines trying to find a pleasant way to keep this on track .. Please lets be respect to the OP... and i am not saying you're not doing so....

 

[Brother Mike]

Okay, good point.

I am now officially a Post Trib believer.

Thanks, Good Word.


JLB

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Last Month, I believe a Dream by the Lord concerning the 6th and 7th seal.
(Warning: as with all dreams, visions and thus saith the Lord it must bare witness with 2 or more and must be right in your heart. We just don't take people's word for things on these things as I am not offended if the (Majority) say it's not from the Lord. I am just sharing this and hope it sheds light on the faithful and unfaithful.)

The Lord took me to a Park like place with buildings and I found myself there. Now my thoughts at the time were what was important because I really believed I was there and was having these thoughts.
The Tribulation period was about over, I had missed my wife and a lot I knew as the Lord took them at the start. I was thinking back to being thankful for just still being alive through all that had happened though I could not say what, I just knew it was pretty dramatic to all that were on the Earth.

I was walking in a Park like place and the 6th seal had just been released. It was very, very dark and soot hung in the air all around me. All the lights from the shape of the buildings in the background were off, the power out, which went out long ago. I noticed though in this park one light on a pole the very dimly lit a basketball court.

I was thinking I knew it was the 6th seal that had just be released, there were no stars, nothing I could see but the shape of trees and that one dim light. I was thinking back to how I missed all the plan of God. I had meant to start obeying God, get things in order but I just never got around to doing everything I knew he called me to do.

The worse part was that I knew in just a short 1/2 hour the Lord Jesus would come. I tried to think back to the people I tried to share the Word with during tribulation, something to bring to the Lord when He showed up, something to help my case. The truth was I had flash backs of some of the things that happened and through I wanted to help people, I always ended up splitting from them and trying to fend for myself. There was really no good place on Earth to keep from the Wrath of the trumpets and vials.

Time was ticking, I was in grief for not just obeying God, and I hear God. Why did I think I had so much time or just half doing things that He told me to do. I did go where I was told but I never really committed myself fully to taking the things of the Lord super serious.

I thought back to Saul, He did what God told him but did it his way. He did kill the enemy but brought back the sheep. Saul even proclaimed he obeyed God much like I was trying to convince myself. I knew in just a short time I would have to answer though.

I noticed a person or two just wondering around, dazed, they passed me by not saying anything. I don't really think they knew what was about to happen, we would have to face the Lamb of God real soon.

So I came up with a plan to just repent as God is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins. I was quoting scriptures to myself and I figured God would have to keep his word and I would be just fine. Then I thought He would see right through that anyway. Then I thought I won't repent and be honest about it knowing he would see through it. The reverse psychology was really depressing me more.

I screwed it up all, and I knew it. He came and I missed him in the clouds. I thought back to how I figured I would do my best to serve him through tribulation but nothing really came of that either. If your not faithful in a little, you won't be faithful in much the scripture came to me.

It's a lie to think you will start getting faithful in the big things when the time comes if you can't even make it to church like He told you time and time again when they have church. It was horrible having all these thoughts and at any moment the silence that was on the Earth would break into loud trumpets and brilliant light.

I felt a lot of fear, but it was fear of someone I should be glad to see. I should have just done what he said and done it willfully and happy, full of joy.

Just then the whole sky lite up, I could see every cloud that was there and it was like one big ball of brilliant light. Somehow I knew that everyone on the planet, even the ones on the other side was seeing the same thing I did. Several trumpet like sounds wailed and I sat up in my bed, it was over.

I was sweating, my pulse rate was up and I was very disoriented. Then I realized I was in my bedroom and thank you Lord I have time.

Then I heard the Lord speak to me, very loud and clear (Not with my ears but inside) He said, "And so it will be with many that call me Lord and Saviour today. If they repent and do what I told them to do I will restore quickly the years they have wasted and quicken the things I planed to give them for time is short."

Be blessed............ Everyone.

God bless you to JLB, Love you brother.

Mike.