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Bible Study Is there justice for Abel?

D

DPMartin

Member
Abel’s demise by the hand of his brother is significant because Abel was the first to make an offering unto the Lord God that was respected by God and God also respected Abel. He was the first to offer of the flesh and offer a lamb, a fat firstling no less. Abel is the first to offer a lamb, of which anyone else in following generations would want to commune or respectfully address the Lord God would offer the lamb. And was established by the Lord God ever since Abel unto the Lord Jesus Christ. And Abel was the first to die, and the Lord made it known that He heard the cry of the blood from the ground. Also note the First to be resurrected, our Lord Jesus Christ, His blood was poured out onto the ground by the hand of his fellow man.

It seems that though Righteousness is of God, and Judgement is of God, and Mercy is of God, justice is something that is given to men to do. And without Righteousness of God, and Judgement of God, and Mercy of God, men cannot do justice. So, justice in the world is established in and by, our Lord Jesus Christ.
When Jesus was on the Cross, was He seeking justice for himself, or Mercy for all? And we assume that Jesus did not receive justice on the Cross, or did He? Consider, was Abel recompensed for what happened to him? Did Abel receive justice?

We were not there, and the scripture doesn’t really say, that I know of, what Abel’s cry was. Was Abel seeking justice for himself, or Mercy for himself, or something else? It’s a curious thing that the Lord didn’t destroy Cain on the spot, I mean what was the point of not only letting Cain live, but protecting Cain with a mark so that all would fear what would befall them if they sot justice for Abel, by killing Cain?

Gen:4:15: And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
　
But yet after the flood the Lord said:

Gen:9:6: Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


So why here, does the Lord say whoso sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed, when in the case of Abel, Cain was permitted to live a full life, and protected by a mark? Consider, we know the Lord is Righteous, therefore what we think in this case may be only our view, and not the Lord’s view.
Can man change things by changing the laws men live by? Or is it given to man to restore unto the Lord God in the Name of Jesus Christ (the only name given), to the restoration of all things, to their original state.

2Cor:5:18: And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
***
Rom:11:36: For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
　
Considering that after God made all things:

Gen:1:31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
 
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Hi DPMartin,

You have a lot things to address in this post, and who are we to have all the answers? But I think we can comment on a few things.

When Jesus was on the Cross, was He seeking justice for himself, or Mercy for all? And we assume that Jesus did not receive justice on the Cross, or did He? Consider, was Abel recompensed for what happened to him? Did Abel receive justice?
Click to expand...

Because Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself, I would say yes, God sought to exercise His justice upon the Son, not that the Son committed any sin, but He became sin for us, 2 Cor. 5:21. Jesus did receive the justice and drank the dregs of God's wrath which it pleased God to do so.

Did Abel receive justice? I believe he most certainly did. If Cain's sins weren't imputed to the Savior on the cross, then he was judged according to his deeds. I think it was obvious that God was showing mercy to Cain to spare him and protect him which really glorifies God. It's contrary to how we normally think. So, that brings us to capital punishment. I'm thinking this, in part, was a protection for society at large while at the same time, God's justice is still consistent because when a man kills another man, the criminal deserves no less than the death penalty. Does God receive less glory for punishing an unrepentant sinner verses having forgiven him? I can't say, but I do believe God is glorified in His righteousness whether one is forgiven or not.

- Davies
 
The whole Cain/Abel/Seth narrative serves as a prophetic model for the Messiah and His impact on the world. It also contrasts our feeble notion of justice with God's perfect judgment. It is in this sense that we, even as Christians, have an ability to be offended by what we perceive as an injustice while forgetting that justice is the responsibility of God.
 
Davies said:
Hi DPMartin,

You have a lot things to address in this post, and who are we to have all the answers? But I think we can comment on a few things.



Because Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself, I would say yes, God sought to exercise His justice upon the Son, not that the Son committed any sin, but He became sin for us, 2 Cor. 5:21. Jesus did receive the justice and drank the dregs of God's wrath which it pleased God to do so.

Did Abel receive justice? I believe he most certainly did. If Cain's sins weren't imputed to the Savior on the cross, then he was judged according to his deeds. I think it was obvious that God was showing mercy to Cain to spare him and protect him which really glorifies God. It's contrary to how we normally think. So, that brings us to capital punishment. I'm thinking this, in part, was a protection for society at large while at the same time, God's justice is still consistent because when a man kills another man, the criminal deserves no less than the death penalty. Does God receive less glory for punishing an unrepentant sinner verses having forgiven him? I can't say, but I do believe God is glorified in His righteousness whether one is forgiven or not.

- Davies
Click to expand...

Davies
Thanks for the reply

Yea, I’m probably guilty of trying to cram to much in there, but it seems to grow right in front of you when one looks at it, if that makes sense.
　
You’re right about God’s Mercy and Forgiveness Glorifies Him. Who is going to thank God or Glorify God for being sent to hell, or being destroyed? Even if it is the result of one’s own doing, or one’s own fault.

All are forgiven, it is a matter of believing and trusting the Grace of God, through the Lord Jesus, in order to receive. Grace of God sees man’s Faith towards the Lord, man’s Faith towards the Lord sees Grace of God.
 
Sinthesis said:
The whole Cain/Abel/Seth narrative serves as a prophetic model for the Messiah and His impact on the world. It also contrasts our feeble notion of justice with God's perfect judgment. It is in this sense that we, even as Christians, have an ability to be offended by what we perceive as an injustice while forgetting that justice is the responsibility of God.
Click to expand...

Sinthesis
Thanks for the reply

I can understand the view of "our feeble notion of justice", but I’m not sure that justice is God’s responsibility. A man can be just and up-right, and perform justice when circumstances and situations call for it. No one can’t make you be just and up-right, but because of the Lord’s availability unto you, you can be just and up-right.

Job:1:8: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
 
reba said:
Do we know Abel's offering was first?
How do we know?
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Reba

thanks for the reply

It is not whether Abel’s offering is first or not, Cain could have offered ten minutes before Abel, for all we know. What is significant is it is scripture that Abel is the first to offer a lamb, and the first man to die, and the fist to have been respected and his offering respected in scripture.
 
DPMartin said:
Reba

thanks for the reply

It is not whether Abel’s offering is first or not, Cain could have offered ten minutes before Abel, for all we know. What is significant is it is scripture that Abel is the first to offer a lamb, and the first man to die, and the fist to have been respected and his offering respected in scripture.
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I was thinking of Adam .Do we know if Adam offered sacrifice or not?
 
Abel’s demise by the hand of his brother is significant because Abel was the first to make an offering unto the Lord God that was respected by God and God also respected Abel
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DPMartin i am sorry if i sounded argumentative it was not my intention. I just had not heard Abel's offering stated quit like this before. I had just always assumed Abel learned from his dad the ritual of the sacrifice.... While assuming Adam learned it from God about the time God shed the first blood.....

After derailing the thread she says :topictotopic
 
reba said:
DPMartin i am sorry if i sounded argumentative it was not my intention. I just had not heard Abel's offering stated quit like this before. I had just always assumed Abel learned from his dad the ritual of the sacrifice.... While assuming Adam learned it from God about the time God shed the first blood.....

After derailing the thread she says :topictotopic
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Reba

Well I can understand your point of an animal had to have been killed and skinned in order for Adam and his wife to be clothed with skins:

Gen:3:21: Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

It doesn’t say, nor even imply that the animal in question was considered a sacrifice, or an offering. And it wasn’t unto the Lord God. What was offered unto the Lord by Cain and Abel, was of their works and labor.

Not the case with the animal skin used to make coats of skins, for Adam and Eve. Unless there is scripture I am no aware of that specifically states that the animal used to make coats of skins, for Adam and Eve was a offering unto the Lord God.
 
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DPMartin said:
but I’m not sure that justice is God’s responsibility.
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Hi DPMartin,

I think God is exclusively responsible for justice. Though He may use man to carry out justice, I wouldn't view any bounds that God has to use man to carry out justice. We do see Jesus coming in the clouds in His glory taking vengeance on all those who know not God or obey His Gospel. Here are just a couple of verses for your consideration.

Psalm 89:14
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne;
Mercy and truth go before Your face.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 4:5
New King James Version (NKJV)
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

There are countless verses in the Bible regarding God's justice. We might think that in our lifetime, there is no justice on the Earth, but that does not mean God is slack according to His promises. Man often thinks that because no one saw him, then nobody knows. Children exemplify this pretty well for all parents to see. We Christians know, and I think non-Christians as well, that God knows even the intent of the heart. Jesus said if you look with lust, then you have already committed adultery in you heart. Judgment Day is all about justice and righteousness, the foundation of God's throne.

- Davies
 
Davies said:
Hi DPMartin,

I think God is exclusively responsible for justice. Though He may use man to carry out justice, I wouldn't view any bounds that God has to use man to carry out justice. We do see Jesus coming in the clouds in His glory taking vengeance on all those who know not God or obey His Gospel. Here are just a couple of verses for your consideration.

Psalm 89:14
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne;
Mercy and truth go before Your face.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 4:5
New King James Version (NKJV)
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

There are countless verses in the Bible regarding God's justice. We might think that in our lifetime, there is no justice on the Earth, but that does not mean God is slack according to His promises. Man often thinks that because no one saw him, then nobody knows. Children exemplify this pretty well for all parents to see. We Christians know, and I think non-Christians as well, that God knows even the intent of the heart. Jesus said if you look with lust, then you have already committed adultery in you heart. Judgment Day is all about justice and righteousness, the foundation of God's throne.

- Davies
Click to expand...

Davies
thanks for the reply

God is exclusively responsible for being God, the Almighty, the Creator and Judge.
I don’t think it is your intent but, your words seem to encourage the thought that one can be unjust, and blame God for the existence of injustice in the world. God didn’t decide to do evil, men decide to do evil. If men are responsible for injustice in the world, as you point out, they will be judged, then men are reasonable for there to be justice in the world. But the verses you use, are they referring to judgement of injustice, or judgement of non-belief?
******
If condemnation is justice, then why did the Son of God give Himself on the Cross to accomplish otherwise? If you stand before Lord God forgiven and to live forever, then have you escaped, eluded, or maybe better said, have you avoided receiving what is justice for your sins, from God? What is just in God’s site? Restoration or destruction. It’s already destroyed, all that is left is restoration, or not.



Luk:9:52: And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53: And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54: And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55: But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
　
It would seem that there is justice for Abel and Cain, because whatever God says or does is Righteous. Praise the Lord for Mercy in His site, if one is out of His site, there is no Mercy.
Consider, if you are standing in the Glory of the Lord living forever, does it matter what you had, or had not in this life? Does it matter who or what had done you wrong? Then does it matter that some one receive justice as one sees it, or to one’s own satisfaction? I would rather receive Mercy and Forgiveness of God, in His site, then justice. And the Truth is it should be the same in my heart for my neighbor, no matter what he maybe. That’s the part that requires of the Lord God to do.
 
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DPMartin said:
Davies
Does it matter who or what had done you wrong? Then does it matter that some one receive justice as one sees it, or to one’s own satisfaction? I would rather receive Mercy and Forgiveness of God, in His site, then justice.
Click to expand...

You might be confusing the idea of justice with vengeance. An "eye for an eye" is not good enough. Abel's blood cried out for his lost posterity, and no amount of earthly 'justice' visited upon Cain could restore that loss.
 
Sinthesis said:
You might be confusing the idea of justice with vengeance. An "eye for an eye" is not good enough. Abel's blood cried out for his lost posterity, and no amount of earthly 'justice' visited upon Cain could restore that loss.
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Sinthesis
thanks for the reply

You might be right, but I see it as addressing the confusion of vengeance for justice. And, an eye for an eye is a law and or precept given by the Lord God, therefore, it has to be Righteous.

Are you saying, there is no earthy justice? It seems your statement is a view of, there isn’t enough punishment "justice" to make up for Abel’s loss. But God can restore Abel’s losses, and it doesn’t require the punishment of Cain. Plus that restoration of Abel is Mercy unto Abel isn’t it?
 
DPMartin said:
jasoncran
thanks for the reply

In what respect do you mean by that?
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you arent familiar with the whore of babylon and what the statement of jesus where its said"

so that all the blood of the saints from abel to zechariah whom ye slew between the alter...
 
jasoncran said:
you arent familiar with the whore of babylon and what the statement of jesus where its said"

so that all the blood of the saints from abel to zechariah whom ye slew between the alter...
Click to expand...

jasoncran

Yea, but on the other hand it was the Gentiles that put the strips on the back of the Beloved Son of the Almighty God, it was the Gentiles that crowned the Beloved Son of the Almighty God and mocked Him as a King to the very face of the Beloved Son of the Almighty God. (I can’t even imagine what the payback might be for that) It was the Gentiles that nailed the Beloved Son of the Almighty God to the Cross and actually crucified the Beloved Son of the Almighty God. You know, did the deed at the request of the Jews. So what is your point?

And besides wasn’t it Apostle Paul that stated some thing about the Jews were blinded for our sakes, until the day of the gentiles be fulfilled? And look at Israel now, many of them speak of the expectations in the coming of the Messiah.
 
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