Bible Study Is there justice for Abel?

[jasoncran]

jasoncran

Yea, but on the other hand it was the Gentiles that put the strips on the back of the Beloved Son of the Almighty God, it was the Gentiles that crowned the Beloved Son of the Almighty God and mocked Him as a King to the face of the Beloved Son of the Almighty God. It was the Gentiles that nailed the Beloved Son of the Almighty God to the Cross and actually crucified the Beloved Son of the Almighty God. You know, did the deed at the request of the Jews. So what is your point?

And besides wasn’t it Apostle Paul that stated some thing about the Jews were blinded for our sakes, until the day of the gentiles be fulfilled? And look at Israel now, many of them speak of the expectations in the coming of the Messiah.

the messiah they seek isnt the one we teach.

as a jew and a man who has reasearched that alot. yes its not popular but what was the whole reason was even on this earth? god didnt make isreal for himself but mankind. nor did he intend to say to the gentiles that we would be used for a season and then back to the jews. while i cant say that he has forgotten isreal but to say a dispy position is truthful isnt quite the case.

 

[jasoncran]

the words of christ and take up the jugdment on jews with god as he stated it clearly

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

 

[jasoncran]

when you take all these statements and also the actions of jews using the roman power to kill the saints clearly you can see how that alot of revalation speaks of that judgement in ad 70.

 

[DPMartin]

when you take all these statements and also the actions of jews using the roman power to kill the saints clearly you can see how that alot of revalation speaks of that judgement in ad 70.

jasoncran

Well I believe there is something to Cain an Abel, being a prophecy of Israel an Jesus of Nazareth.

And nobody is going to argue that Israel hasn’t been in the Lord’s good graces since 70 AD. But what is the Lord’s warnings to those who are against Israel? Israel is still His people.
　
Ps:89:29: His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30: If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31: If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32: Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33: Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34: My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.


Israel is a nation that used to be a people that toke for granted that the Presence of the Lord God was with them and they had nothing to fear, but the Lord God. No other nation or peoples has had, or experienced such a thing. The higher the fly, the farther the fall.

 

[Sinthesis]

You might be right, but I see it as addressing the confusion of vengeance for justice. And, an eye for an eye is a law and or precept given by the Lord God, therefore, it has to be Righteous.

Righteous by man's standard or God's standard?

Mat 5:38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 - But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.​

Are you saying, there is no earthy justice? It seems your statement is a view of, there isn’t enough punishment "justice" to make up for Abel’s loss. But God can restore Abel’s losses, and it doesn’t require the punishment of Cain. Plus that restoration of Abel is Mercy unto Abel isn’t it?

Earthly justice is an illusion meant to soothe our vanity. Righteousness is not the same as sinlessness, so actually I'm saying that Abel only got what he deserved. As sinners, all any of us deserve is death. The fact that God lets us live in rebellion on earth at all is evidence of His Mercy. The promise of an afterlife is through His Grace.

In jealousy Cain took it upon himself to determine the end of Abel's life, and thus the nullification of Abel's posterity. In this act Cain usurped the prerogative of God. Poetically, the 'earth' itself perceived the apparent loss of a righteous bloodline, to which God naturally responded with the birth of Seth through whom would come the Messiah. What could Abel lose on earth that would outweigh salvation? If God continued to show mercy to Cain, then what is that to Abel? Or to Seth? Or to you?

 

[Sinthesis]

Yea, but on the other hand it was the Gentiles that put the strips on the back of the Beloved Son of the Almighty God, it was the Gentiles that crowned the Beloved Son of the Almighty God and mocked Him as a King to the very face of the Beloved Son of the Almighty God. (I can’t even imagine what the payback might be for that) It was the Gentiles that nailed the Beloved Son of the Almighty God to the Cross and actually crucified the Beloved Son of the Almighty God. You know, did the deed at the request of the Jews. So what is your point?

And besides wasn’t it Apostle Paul that stated some thing about the Jews were blinded for our sakes, until the day of the gentiles be fulfilled? And look at Israel now, many of them speak of the expectations in the coming of the Messiah.

Everyone is guilty, yet the lost sheep of Israel, to whom Jesus was sent because they were told what to look for in the Messiah, committed the greater sin.

Jhn 19:11 - Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.​

 

[DPMartin]

Righteous by man's standard or God's standard?
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 - But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
　

What! Your going to tell me that eye for an eye is unrighteous? If it is given by the Lord who also had spoken what you have quoted there, then how can it be unrighteous? And who says but you, that there is a standard? Righteousness is Righteousness, or it is not Righteousness.

Earthly justice is an illusion meant to soothe our vanity.

　
Justice is not of the earth, justice something that is done deliberately in the earth, just as injustice is something that is done deliberately in the earth. Heaven is Heaven, but justice and injustice is done in the earth by men.

Righteousness is not the same as sinlessness,

If Jesus Christ who is sinless is your Righteousness before God, because you are not righteous because you are a sinner, then how can this be true?

so actually I'm saying that Abel only got what he deserved. As sinners, all any of us deserve is death.

It is true that what men deserve is to remain in the earth, but according to you, the life that God gave Abel doesn’t deserve to be fulfilled. And according to you it is justice that Abel is denied.

The fact that God lets us live in rebellion on earth at all is evidence of His Mercy.

To who?

The promise of an afterlife is through His Grace.

To who?

 

[jasoncran]

jasoncran

Well I believe there is something to Cain an Abel, being a prophecy of Israel an Jesus of Nazareth.

And nobody is going to argue that Israel hasn’t been in the Lord’s good graces since 70 AD. But what is the Lord’s warnings to those who are against Israel? Israel is still His people.
　
Ps:89:29: His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30: If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31: If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32: Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33: Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34: My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.


Israel is a nation that used to be a people that toke for granted that the Presence of the Lord God was with them and they had nothing to fear, but the Lord God. No other nation or peoples has had, or experienced such a thing. The higher the fly, the farther the fall.

ok so a sinful nation that denies the lord and yet is blessed? we american tell america repent and stop the abortions and also stop with rejected christ. yet with isreal i dont hear it. i am of isreal but i dont see anywhere in the bible in the tanach that god rejected isreal forever but when i do see him gathering them into the land its after a repentent select goes. modern isreal is nothing of that sort. its a secular goverment with few actually torah following jews. if anything hellfire and truth preaching pastors and churches might get all the jews to recieve him. and yes i know that many a jews are coming but i dont buy the idea that isreal will do what god called the church to do for one last time.

at synthesis i do see the eye for an eye as justice. if we didnt jail the thieves but made them pay restution and rehabed them it would work better and that is what eye for did

if i was injured, with my eye i determined by looses to which the offender paid.

 

[DPMartin]

ok so a sinful nation that denies the lord and yet is blessed? we american tell america repent and stop the abortions and also stop with rejected christ. yet with isreal i dont hear it. i am of isreal but i dont see anywhere in the bible in the tanach that god rejected isreal forever but when i do see him gathering them into the land its after a repentent select goes. modern isreal is nothing of that sort. its a secular goverment with few actually torah following jews. if anything hellfire and truth preaching pastors and churches might get all the jews to recieve him. and yes i know that many a jews are coming but i dont buy the idea that isreal will do what god called the church to do for one last time.

jasoncran
thanks for the reply
Friend, don’t be so discouraged, it ain’t over till its over. You know as well as I do that nothing is impossible for the Lord God to do. The Lord can get Israel to look His way or toward Him easily. The circumstance and or situation the Lord can put Israel in, can make them see that there is no other way but to call upon the name of the Lord.

 

[jasoncran]

jasoncran
thanks for the reply
Friend, don’t be so discouraged, it ain’t over till its over. You know as well as I do that nothing is impossible for the Lord God to do. The Lord can get Israel to look His way or toward Him easily. The circumstance and or situation the Lord can put Israel in, can make them see that there is no other way but to call upon the name of the Lord.

its not losing heart my friend its see and searching what the bible does say. the bible doesn support a judaistic messanic era with the messiah reiging over the earth from the city of jerusalem.

 

[DPMartin]

its not losing heart my friend its see and searching what the bible does say. the bible doesn support a judaistic messanic era with the messiah reiging over the earth from the city of jerusalem.

Here is a forum site "ZolaBoard" that has mainly Jewish followers of Jesus Christ, some in Israel (I do believe ), and maybe they can address your concerns better then I could I can only speak from a Gentile point of view. They are some what close nit group and hammer, and pick on each other like brothers and sisters do in a family, but on the subjects you are addressing, they would love to talk about it. And are better suited to show in scripture the coming Messiah to Jerusalem, in the view of an Israelite.
http://zolaboard.levitt.com/ubbthreads.php

 

[jasoncran]

Here is a forum site "ZolaBoard" that has mainly Jewish followers of Jesus Christ, some in Israel (I do believe ), and maybe they can address your concerns better then I could I can only speak from a Gentile point of view. They are some what close nit group and hammer, and pick on each other like brothers and sisters do in a family, but on the subjects you are addressing, they would love to talk about it. And are better suited to show in scripture the coming Messiah to Jerusalem, in the view of an Israelite.
http://zolaboard.levitt.com/ubbthreads.php

im familar with the hebrew concept of the messiah , but there are some problems with that. i can go into great detail on if its to be there cant be any use of the verses in ezekiel to show that in isreal the tribe of levy worships God that way. i also suggest reading up on the torah and what the law was for and you will see clearly that suggesting that implies a return to the torah.

 

[DPMartin]

im familar with the hebrew concept of the messiah , but there are some problems with that. i can go into great detail on if its to be there cant be any use of the verses in ezekiel to show that in isreal the tribe of levy worships God that way. i also suggest reading up on the torah and what the law was for and you will see clearly that suggesting that implies a return to the torah.

jasoncran

Well, your are correct about the Torah, I believe that the Lord wants everyone that knows Him to have more focus on it, especially these days. It seems to me if you want to know and understand what it is that the Lord Jesus Christ has fulfilled, the Torah would be were to look and learn.

Rev:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Notice it doesn’t say religions, and theologies here.

 

[jasoncran]

im in the torah as we speak. you will never understand it all.