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Is there Such A Thing As Separation Of Church And State ?

Lewis

Lewis

Member
It is time for this question again who here believes that there is a Separation Of Church And State ? And if so tell me why and give me your proof.
 
You have been shown this before, but you refuse to accept this as evidence because you don't accept the wording.


first amendment of the US constitution said:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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This clause protects the government from being run by any one religion and keeps the government from telling you not to worship as you please.

Now before you start saying that the president or a governor can supersede this, wrong. The Governor nor President can't make any decrees or laws without running them through Congress. If congress tries to get around the first amendment, then the judicial system stops it for violating the constitution.

If no one stops it, the people can stand up and demand the constitution be upheld through both Amendments 1 and 2.

Now, if you refuse this interpretation, please explain yours.
 
Lewis W said:
The Rise Of the Religious Right In The Republican Party
Separation Of Church And State

Article is here
Separation of Church and State
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I take the constitution more serious then the "opinion" of a Judge. The judge was stating his opinion about Christianity. I don't care about his opinions on Christianity, but whether or not he did his job when protecting the constitution and the rights of the people.
 
Jason it tells us the mindset and how some of this came to be, that is why I posted it.
 
Lewis W said:
Jason it tells us the mindset and how some of this came to be, that is why I posted it.
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ah, at a quick glance, they forget the supposed neutral govt also called for pray and also paid for bibles etc.

while the govt is to be neutral that doenst mean that it cant have prayers by a religous instution or base laws on the moral dominate world view. which at the time was a christian one.

that is what the church was supposed to be the moral compass of the state, not the state. even the athiest thomas paine mentioned that.

and why would obama say that we are a muslim nation if we really arent?a confused constitutional lawyer eh?
 
jasoncran said:
ah, at a quick glance, they forget the supposed neutral govt also called for pray and also paid for bibles etc.
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Provide the documents that made these either state or federal expenses please.

while the govt is to be neutral that doenst mean that it cant have prayers by a religous instution or base laws on the moral dominate world view. which at the time was a christian one.
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You can still pray if you want, it just can't be led by a state or fed rep., nothing says you can't, laws also need more then religious grounds to be ratified.

that is what the church was supposed to be the moral compass of the state, not the state. even the athiest thomas paine mentioned that.
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That was the opinion of Thomas Paine, not law.

and why would obama say that we are a muslim nation if we really arent?
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In the same speach he also said we where a nation of Christians, Hindus, and non believers. He was trying to include all the big groups. I watched that very speech.
a confused constitutional lawyer eh?
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Nope, you just quote mined him to make it look like he was giving special attention to a group when you look at the speech itself it shows him covering many different religious groups.

Nice try.
 
Lance_Iguana said:
Provide the documents that made these either state or federal expenses please.

You can still pray if you want, it just can't be led by a state or fed rep., nothing says you can't, laws also need more then religious grounds to be ratified.

That was the opinion of Thomas Paine, not law.

In the same speach he also said we where a nation of Christians, Hindus, and non believers. He was trying to include all the big groups. I watched that very speech. Nope, you just quote mined him to make it look like he was giving special attention to a group when you look at the speech itself it shows him covering many different religious groups.

Nice try.
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nope iggy from the new york times.

Obama Says U.S. Could Be Seen as a Muslim Country, Too - NYTimes.com

that isnt what the nyt times says, and they surely arent the religous right!
 
jasoncran said:
nope iggy from the new york times.

Obama Says U.S. Could Be Seen as a Muslim Country, Too - NYTimes.com

that isnt what the nyt times says, and they surely arent the religous right!
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They aren't saying what you claim they are saying ether. Here is a quote from the very article.

"And one of the points I want to make is, is that if you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we’d be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world,” Mr. Obama said. “And so there’s got to be a better dialogue and a better understanding between the two peoples.”
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He's stating that we have a large Muslim population, he did not say we are a Muslim nation.

Once again, nice try.
 
theLords said:
are you serious? :shocked!

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand! Repent! Repent!
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Jason is misrepresenting the article. President Obama never said we were an Islamic Nation, but that if we were, we'd be one of the largest with our Muslim population.
 
jasoncran said:
The First Continental Congress - Troops, Prayer, Secretary of Congress
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Jason's source said:
Continental Congress September 6, 1774, made their first official act a call for prayer, as recorded in the Journals of the Continental Congress, after just receiving the news that the British troops had attacked Boston:

"Tuesday, September 6, 1774. Resolved, That the Rev. Mr. Duche' be desired to open the Congress tomorrow morning with prayers, at the Carpenter's Hall, at 9 o'clock." - September 6, 1774. The Journals of the Continental Congress 1774-1789 (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1905), Vol. I, p. 26. David Barton, The Myth of Separation (Aledo, TX: WallBuilder Press, 1991), p. 100.
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The constitution was not Ratified until 1789, there was also no congress until after the ratification either. So this statement that "congress" opened with a prayer from 74-89 is rubbish.

Oh, look at that Wallbuilder is the source of your source. Lewis's website. What a coincidences. It fails to mention that when Ben Franklin asked fro the motion to start the Constitutional hearings with a Prayer, it was denied and they went on their way. Quite a lot of errors there.

I'd keep going but all these cited incidents happened in the 1770s so far, when the constitution was ratified until the end of the 1780s.

That is like blaming George Bush sr. for what Carter said.
 
<big><big><big><small>Prayer in Colonial Schools:
</small></big></big></big> <big><big><big><small>In Colonial America the schools were mostly run by the churches. The first settlers in America felt that it was important that children learned to read so they could read their Bibles. Learning right from wrong and developing good moral character were considered as important as learning the 3R's. School Prayer was a natural part of the Pilgrims school life. <small>The Churches played a big part in the formation of schools in America:
See History of Schools in America
</small></small></big></big></big>
<big><big><big><small><small>
</small></small></big></big></big><big><big><big><small>Bible Reading & School Prayer:
</small></big></big></big> <big><big><big><small>As part of the daily curriculum, students were taught to pray and read using the Bible. Later in 1690 the New England Primer was introduced which taught spelling, reading and the Alphabet using Bible verses, thus teaching both reading and Bible morals at the same time. Daily school prayer was a natural part of this educational system. After the American Revolution, Noah Webster introduced the Blue Book Speller which also used Bible verses to teach reading and spelling. In 1836 the McGuffey Reader was introduced which also featured Bible verses to teach moral values. This school system produced some of the worlds brightest inventors and set the Industrial Revolution in motion. The schools continued to be run mostly by Christian Churches until the 1890's at which point States started to take control of the existing schools. By 1900 many other text books were in use and they all had Bible quotes in them. </small></big></big></big>
<big><big><big><small>
School System Changes:
</small></big></big></big> <big><big><big><small>As the 20th Century began many classrooms started each day with the pledge of allegiance, a prayer and a reading from the Bible. Many Churches turned their schools over the State run educational system. State run schools continued to teach moral values using the McGuffey reader with its Bible verses. America had one of the best school systems in the world. The first crack in the moral school system occurred, in 1925 when the newly formed ACLU paid a teacher in Tennessee to teach Evolution. Biblical creation had been taught through out the land, and teaching evolution was against the Tennessee state law. While the ACLU lost the case, it set in motion a re-evaluation of teaching science. Within four decades the laws were reversed so that now teaching Creation is outlawed and teaching Evolution is mandatory.
</small></big></big></big>
<big><big><big><small>
</small></big></big></big><big><big><big><small>Today's Schools without Prayer:
</small></big></big></big> <big><big><big><small>The ACLU then started using the courts to change school policy. In 1948 the Supreme court used the "Separation of Church and State" argument to outlaw a time for school prayer. In 1962 the Supreme Court again declared that prayer in school was unconstitutional. In 1963 the Warren Court stopped schools from allowing Bible reading in classes. In 1980 the Supreme Court declared that posting the Ten Commandments in a school classroom violated the Constitution of the United States. </small></big></big></big>

<big><big><big><small>Thus while the early American schools taught the moral values from the Bible, with school prayer, today's public school system prohibit teaching moral values from the Bible, or even allowing students to pray to a God that a majority of faiths in this country recognize. The result is America has become a land with much looser morals then 4 decades ago, which is having a negative affect on all sectors of our society. History shows us that when societies become corrupt they begin to come apart and crumble.
School Prayer in America, Separation of Church and State
</small></big></big></big>
 
Lance_Iguana said:
The constitution was not Ratified until 1789, there was also no congress until after the ratification either. So this statement that "congress" opened with a prayer from 74-89 is rubbish.

Oh, look at that Wallbuilder is the source of your source. Lewis's website. What a coincidences. It fails to mention that when Ben Franklin asked fro the motion to start the Constitutional hearings with a Prayer, it was denied and they went on their way. Quite a lot of errors there.

I'd keep going but all these cited incidents happened in the 1770s so far, when the constitution was ratified until the end of the 1780s.

That is like blaming George Bush sr. for what Carter said.
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uh what about the articles of confederation? and you forget that the president washington wasnt the first president of the united states.
 
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