Is This Really Necessary?

[GodsGrace]

Maybe it's my lack of experience with other cultures (I have lived and grown up in the northern half of MN and I will be the first to admit that I have lived a sheltered life. I'm struggling to understand how a different culture would facilitate a need to change the delivery or the message. Maybe a part of my reason for asking is that at the moment I have only white kids in my class but if some day I should have colored children in my class, would it then require that I make some changes and if so, how or what changes?

My opinion WIP, is that for American black kids it should make no difference, but maybe if they come from a different country it might. Mike spoke to this.

I understand two different cultures. It's like this:
In the US if you're at a concert and you hear whistles, it's good.
Over here if you hear whistles, it's bad.

If you're at someone's home and they offer you food and you say NO, that's it.
Here they beg you a little otherwise no one would ever take anything for fear of being too "up front". (can't think of the term I want). In Italian it's sfacciato.

Those are two examples. Plus, someone said how Jesus wouldn't use farming as examples for parables today because very few could relate.

My two cents.

W

 

[Mike S]

Maybe it's my lack of experience with other cultures (I have lived and grown up in the northern half of MN and I will be the first to admit that I have lived a sheltered life. I'm struggling to understand how a different culture would facilitate a need to change the delivery or the message. Maybe a part of my reason for asking is that at the moment I have only white kids in my class but if some day I should have colored children in my class, would it then require that I make some changes and if so, how or what changes?

I think you'd do fine, WIP, if some black kids show up in your classes one day. You'd pretty quickly understand them and know how to work with them. Most would already be comfortable with you and the other kids, some may have cultural difference, but you'll figure it out. Trust God to guide you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The first thought that went through my mind is, is it necessary to have a curriculum that is skin color oriented? Does God's word apply differently to people based on the color of their skin or their nationality? I could understand if it was just written in a different language?

I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain it to me?

IMO, it's no more necessary than dividing up believers by age.
Experience has shown me it's important that believers talk about all things as one group, not in segregated groups.

 

[jasonc]

IMO, it's no more necessary than dividing up believers by age.
Experience has shown me it's important that believers talk about all things as one group, not in segregated groups.

I don't think I could relate to a teen or child.or myself to single person fully.we do forget what we were like at times.

My high school days are a bit different then yours and both of ours to my grandchildren.

 

[GodsGrace]

IMO, it's no more necessary than dividing up believers by age.
Experience has shown me it's important that believers talk about all things as one group, not in segregated groups.

Jethro, I've taught kids and, believe me, it's necessary to divvy them up by age.
You can't tell a 7 year old the same things in the same way that you would tell a 12 year old.
Younger kids don't understand concepts very well and older kids do.

You might have meant something different.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think I could relate to a teen or child.or myself to single person fully.we do forget what we were like at times.

My high school days are a bit different then yours and both of ours to my grandchildren.

Grandchildren?
You sound like a young guy.
I'm in shock.

W

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't think I could relate to a teen or child.or myself to single person fully.we do forget what we were like at times.

My high school days are a bit different then yours and both of ours to my grandchildren.

Spiritual truths never change. The circumstances and situations that we have to practice them in do, of course. But it's valuable to learn from others who 1) know more than us, and 2) have been tempted and tested as we are now being tested and tempted. I know this from experience.

We had believers between 18 years and into their '70s in a fellowship I was in and the contribution of the eldest and more experienced (spiritually and practically speaking) among us was invaluable. I cringe every time I see churches segregate the youth from the older believers as if it's impossible to talk about spiritual matters to all believers at once. I see a direct application in regard to race as well. Any spiritual matter concerning race can easily and effectively be talked about among all races in the body of Christ. I contend it will be more effectual that way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, I've taught kids and, believe me, it's necessary to divvy them up by age.
You can't tell a 7 year old the same things in the same way that you would tell a 12 year old.
Younger kids don't understand concepts very well and older kids do.

You might have meant something different.

W

In regard to children, of course there is the problem of addressing things that they have not ever heard of yet, and which would be impossible to communicate to them about anyway given their lack of communication skills. But to divide teens and adults up according to age is a mistake.

 

[GodsGrace]

In regard to children, of course there is the problem of addressing things that they have not ever heard of yet, and which would be impossible to communicate to them about anyway given their lack of communication skills. But to divide teens and adults up according to age is a mistake.

Agreed.
If a teen can understand calculus, he can understand the gospel message, the parables, the theology in Romans, etc.

W

 

[WIP]

Jethro, I've taught kids and, believe me, it's necessary to divvy them up by age.
You can't tell a 7 year old the same things in the same way that you would tell a 12 year old.
Younger kids don't understand concepts very well and older kids do.

I agree. Our church is quite small and our age structure is getting older so there are fewer kids. As a result, last year I took on grades 7-12 and I found that to be quite difficult for me. At the high school level we talk about things that junior high students seem to struggle to understand. Adult things like adultery, relationships, sex before marriage, drugs, alcohol, and finances to name a few. I saw a lot of blank faces.

 

[WIP]

In regard to children, of course there is the problem of addressing things that they have not ever heard of yet, and which would be impossible to communicate to them about anyway given their lack of communication skills. But to divide teens and adults up according to age is a mistake.

To address this we start all of our Sunday mornings with a full group including all age levels and then break into our separate groups. We find this to be working out nicely. In my opinion it also teaches the kids that Bible learning doesn't end when they get confirmed. It continues into our advanced years.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree. Our church is quite small and our age structure is getting older so there are fewer kids. As a result, last year I took on grades 7-12 and I found that to be quite difficult for me. At the high school level we talk about things that junior high students seem to struggle to understand. Adult things like adultery, relationships, sex before marriage, drugs, alcohol, and finances to name a few. I saw a lot of blank faces.

7 to 12 year olds in the same class is pretty much impossible. The 7 yr olds won't understand what the 12 year olds need, and the 12 year olds get bored to tears when addressing the 7 yr olds.

I used to have 8 to 12 kids in a class. I wouldn't have minded just having 2 or 3, the problem is that you need enough instructors to be able to do this and it seems there are never enough. 2 or 3 of each age group, I mean.
I'd prefer that to having 7 to 12 year olds in one class.

W

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm pretty sure none of us think this means children are to be in with the whole congregation during teaching sessions. I'd say ninth graders up should be rubbing shoulders with adults when it comes to learning the spiritual truths of scripture. For fellowship they can segregate into their age groups. That's kind of obvious.

 

[Christ_empowered]

The division by age issue is interesting. My parents go to this megachurch that doesn't let kids under 12 in the main church. They have kid's church or something. I don't know how I feel about that.

I think society in general is too divided by age, social class, race, etc. as is...ideally, the church should take some steps to counter that. My current best friend+spiritual mentor is 73. I'm looking forward to getting into church so I can meet people roughly around my age and all, but I've learned a lot about living out one's faith from my friend+spiritual mentor. That sort of friendship wouldn't be encouraged in a setting that followed the world's pattern and divided people up based on age, marital status, etc.

 

[jasonc]

Spiritual truths never change. The circumstances and situations that we have to practice them in do, of course. But it's valuable to learn from others who 1) know more than us, and 2) have been tempted and tested as we are now being tested and tempted. I know this from experience.

We had believers between 18 years and into their '70s in a fellowship I was in and the contribution of the eldest and more experienced (spiritually and practically speaking) among us was invaluable. I cringe every time I see churches segregate the youth from the older believers as if it's impossible to talk about spiritual matters to all believers at once. I see a direct application in regard to race as well. Any spiritual matter concerning race can easily and effectively be talked about among all races in the body of Christ. I contend it will be more effectual that way.

That's true,but what good is the truth if you can't draw people in.

Im a vet.I could post myriad of my deep down things only a vet would get. If you think you ,that aren't a vet can tell me how to deal with my issues or can't relate then don't tell me anything.

I'm with a veterans group.I will push for a christian version of a ptsd group.there's far ,far more then just classes.that's what I'm getting at.not all christians will be friends or relate to beach other.

I have a type of clique here that I don't quite fit in.a group of homeschooling parents have needs and issues of which I don't relate.I see this subset often.

If you have never been to a church and were a vet or what not how would you be drawn? I can draw or reach vets but not so much the well educated.I can go into the churches on the beach. We have churches here where services aren't in English.shall we ignore the lost illegal immigrants?

 

[jasonc]

Grandchildren?
You sound like a young guy.
I'm in shock.

W

I'm 43.

My wife is 57.jaci ,rosemary are my grandkids.Julie and Nathan as well.

I can relate to Nathan as we have common music interests ,I did listen to what he likes ,ie metallica,nirvana,slayer,and Batman,spiderman and TNMT.

God uses our personalities to reach others .why must be so cookie cutter in church I don't get.is it a sin to center a ministry on a communal interest.ie bikers fir Christ, running groups?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

is it a sin to center a ministry on a communal interest.ie bikers fir Christ, running groups?

Well, it certainly is not the best way to run a church.

That's true,but what good is the truth if you can't draw people in.

Im a vet.I could post myriad of my deep down things only a vet would get. If you think you ,that aren't a vet can tell me how to deal with my issues or can't relate then don't tell me anything.

I'm with a veterans group.I will push for a christian version of a ptsd group.there's far ,far more then just classes.that's what I'm getting at.not all christians will be friends or relate to beach other.

I have a type of clique here that I don't quite fit in.a group of homeschooling parents have needs and issues of which I don't relate.I see this subset often.

If you have never been to a church and were a vet or what not how would you be drawn? I can draw or reach vets but not so much the well educated.I can go into the churches on the beach. We have churches here where services aren't in English.shall we ignore the lost illegal immigrants?

Christ and the forgiveness of sins is the only thing that a church should be dangling out to the world to draw them in. I resist the thinking that you draw people in with food and fun and then sneak the gospel in on them. I honestly don't like going to church with insincere or half-hearted people. They drag down the ministry of the Spirit when the body meets. Church is for believers.

Evangelistic ministries, not church meetings, are for drawing the lost. That is where you can set up preaching and teaching designed to attract specific people with specific interests and circumstances. The problem with 'church' today is we do not meet in the common experience of the Holy Spirit. The thing we have in common that is the basis for our meeting is the relationship with the Holy Spirit that each of us has. That was the glue that kept our diverse group of believers together and thriving. If it was about golf games, motorcycles, careers, ages, families, etc. then it would have just been a community gathering of people like any other club--with all the spirit-less bickering and drama that goes with that. That's the mistake the church is making these days. The church is not a social club. But it will be very social if you make the Holy Spirit and relating to God through him the single thing you have in common and gather around.

 

[jasonc]

Well, it certainly is not the best way to run a church.


Christ and the forgiveness of sins is the only thing that a church should be dangling out to the world to draw them in. I resist the thinking that you draw people in with food and fun and then sneak the gospel in on them. I honestly don't like going to church with insincere or half-hearted people. They drag down the ministry of the Spirit when the body meets. Church is for believers.

Evangelistic ministries, not church meetings, are for drawing the lost. That is where you can set up preaching and teaching designed to attract specific people with specific interests and circumstances. The problem with 'church' today is we do not meet in the common experience of the Holy Spirit. The thing we have in common that is the basis for our meeting is the relationship with the Holy Spirit that each of us has. That was the glue that kept our diverse group of believers together and thriving. If it was about golf games, motorcycles, careers, ages, families, etc. then it would have just been a community gathering of people like any other club--with all the spirit-less bickering and drama that goes with that. That's the mistake the church is making these days. The church is not a social club. But it will be very social if you make the Holy Spirit and relating to God through him the single thing you have in common and gather around.

The fact is we are social creatures. What does communion mean? It means all things in common.I never said no general worship but again if I live in Hialeah, Florida and I'm the Only white guy who doesn't speak English ,that church shouldn't try to understand me to reach me.Creole,Spanish Brazilian culture aren't the same.

I reapeat ,life groups not just church on Sunday or Saturday.most churches here may not even know we have starving vets that they could reach easily instead the local food bank does it.that's great but again your not getting thar these will need a side group.Im getting to the point where I relate to veterans better then saved folks.it's easy to talk love the enemy ,but hear that in country,then go out and kill him.yes I had mixed feelings that sitting a bible study will never deeply get!

Sometimes hearing,hey man I know that struggle and this is how I got through it.that's not in alot of churches.

http://www.fcog.com/lifegroups/available-lifegroups/

That church has done that for a decade or more and all these meet in Sunday services or Wednesday.

I have fellowshipped with them.my brother is part of that ministry.

That's where I'm going.my isolation in part Is my fault from work etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

The division by age issue is interesting. My parents go to this megachurch that doesn't let kids under 12 in the main church. They have kid's church or something. I don't know how I feel about that.

I think society in general is too divided by age, social class, race, etc. as is...ideally, the church should take some steps to counter that. My current best friend+spiritual mentor is 73. I'm looking forward to getting into church so I can meet people roughly around my age and all, but I've learned a lot about living out one's faith from my friend+spiritual mentor. That sort of friendship wouldn't be encouraged in a setting that followed the world's pattern and divided people up based on age, marital status, etc.

I don't agree with a rule that says that under 12 shouldn't attend the general service. However, I do think it's a good idea to have something different to offer kids. They get incredibly bored in church and it becomes a bad experience. The church I used to go to had bible study for all ages but if they wanted to go with their parents to the service, that was fine too.

You said you're looking forward to going to church. Aren't you going now?

W

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I had mixed feelings that sitting a bible study will never deeply get!

What you need is a church that will let you share those feelings so they can be addressed by the pastor, the elders, and anyone else who has some gift of the Spirit to reach out to you. Surely, you've noticed that doesn't, and can't, happen in the traditional Church meeting of the saints. And the extra-curricular meetings where there is a scant possibility that you can share and be ministered to from the collective wisdom and knowledge and experience of the group, the meeting most likely will not have a pastor or elder leading it to facilitate all that God intended to happen in those kinds of meetings for the body of Christ.

The fact is we are social creatures. What does communion mean? It means all things in common.

For the Christian, communion means having Christ in common. Which we symbolize through the juice and the bread.

In our Western societies we don't fully understand and appreciate the union of fellowship and brotherhood established when two or more people eat a meal together. It's just a meal to us. In other cultures it's understood that eating equals a deeper unity of fellowship. We see this illustrated in Acts 10 where God lowered the sheet of unclean animals down to Peter and Peter coming away with the conclusion that 'I am to call no man unclean'. But to us Western folk, God was just saying 'you can eat these things now'.