Is Yahweh and Allah one?

[Stan53]

Muhammed, the founder of Islam, was the one who first claimed that Arabs were descendants of Ishmael. Muhammed claims that Abraham and Ishmael originally set up Mecca as a monotheistic holy place, that they originally built a shrine to Allah (God) there, but that at some point the Arabs who worshiped there kept adding god's to the shrine and perverted the worship of the God of Abraham and Ishmael. Included in this shrine is a "celestial stone" (meteorite) given to Abraham by an angel, after he constructed the Kaaba that Allah (God) showed him how to make. Again, this is all according to Muhammed.

Where in the OT does Abraham receive a rock that fell from heaven as a reward for building a shrine in Mecca with his son Ishmael?

If the answer is "never", than it is doubtful that the pre-islamic pagan Arabs are descendants of Ishmael since Genesis existed as canonized scripture (hundreds of years) let alone as an oral tradition (thousands of years) prior to the birth of Muhammed.

I never knew that Drummer. I got the facts out of the Bible. It's not hard to see it there. Obviously whatever Mohamed said is wrong and full of lies.

 

[Free]

Yes you are incorrect. The OT Jews were never as a group completely disobedient. Some were wicked, often including their leadership which then led the masses astray. Yet God always reserved to Himself a remnant of those OT Jews that were righteous. Their righteousness did not depend on their apprehension of the triune nature of God. None of the OT saints perceived the triune nature of God. Rather, it was their faith in God even without a complete understanding of His plan that was counted to them as righteousness.

Likewise, in John Chapter 8 Jesus was confronting a particular group of Jews (scribes & pharisees) who should have know from their studies that He was the promised Messiah, yet would not accept Him because they did not want to give up their heritage as God's chosen people and all the delusions that accompanied that status.

Jews have never been homogeneous to be despised or lauded as a group. This kind of stereotyping is in direct contradiction to Jesus' teaching as regards to being "perfect". Islam teaches the opposite of course.

Then perhaps you can explain Psalm 110:1 The LORD said to my LORD

Properly put as: "The LORD says to my Lord," or "Yahweh says to my Adoni". We must be very careful in reading back the Christian understanding of what that is saying into a time before Christianity and thinking that they would have thought of the same meaning or that it was clear to them what was actually being said.

If you can provide Jewish sources, particularly sources from around that time that would support any notion that even some Jews saw such passages as revealing God as triune, then you may have a point. Even if part of God's purpose in Scripture was to reveal himself as triune, I think it is clear that the Jews likely never understood him to be such or even considered that he had a son.

To keep from getting further off topic, my whole point has been to show the error of arguing that the god of Islam cannot be Yahweh based on the fact that they don't accept Jesus as the Son of God. If that were the case, then we must say the same about Jews throughout history but that would clearly mean we need to get rid of the entire OT.

No, we wouldn't have to get rid of the OT considering it contains passages revealing Gods triunity & Christ's divinity. In fact NT writers consistently quoted the OT to back their claim that Jesus is God.

Apart from again reading a Christian interpretation back into the OT, this furthers my argument. The God of the OT, Yahweh, is the God of the NT. The Jews of the OT worshiped Yahweh, the NT writers worshiped Yahweh and even wrote that their ancestors worshiped Yahweh:

2Ti 1:3 I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. (ESV)

So, once again, if we say that the god that Muslims worship isn't Yahweh, based on the fact that Muslims deny Jesus is the Son of God, then we must be consistent and say the same for the Jews of the OT and the god they followed. But this is contradictory since the God the Jews worshiped was Yahweh and the whole NT acknowledges this same God as the one true God.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Yes you are incorrect. The OT Jews were never as a group completely disobedient. Some were wicked, often including their leadership which then led the masses astray. Yet God always reserved to Himself a remnant of those OT Jews that were righteous. Their righteousness did not depend on their apprehension of the triune nature of God. None of the OT saints perceived the triune nature of God. Rather, it was their faith in God even without a complete understanding of His plan that was counted to them as righteousness.

Likewise, in John Chapter 8 Jesus was confronting a particular group of Jews (scribes & pharisees) who should have know from their studies that He was the promised Messiah, yet would not accept Him because they did not want to give up their heritage as God's chosen people and all the delusions that accompanied that status.

*EDIT

How should the Pharisees have known Yeshua (God saves) was the Messiah from their studies, if the holy texts they studied contained no revelation or apprehension of who the Messiah was? Again, Jesus stated that Abraham knew Him. As for righteousness being credited, the only Jews Paul mentions are Abraham (Galatians 3:16) & David (Romans 4:6-8). In both Epistles, Paul quotes the OT to make his point that both Abraham & David's sins were already transferred to Christ in order for Christ's righteousness to be credited to them.

Jews have never been homogeneous to be despised or lauded as a group. This kind of stereotyping is in direct contradiction to Jesus' teaching as regards to being "perfect". Islam teaches the opposite of course.

That was the point I was trying to make, that the OT Jews were not homogenous in their faith, and that a remnant remained righteous as the masses went astray (see post #382).

If none of the OT saints perceived Gods triunity, why did Jesus & Paul consistently quote the OT to back up their respective claims that Jesus is God?

My point regarding the worship of Allah not being synonymous with the worship of Yahweh is this: Even if Islam shares Abrahamic roots with Judaism, any Muslim or Jew who now rejects Christ does not "righteously" worship God considering Jesus Christ is God.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

:


Properly put as: "The LORD says to my Lord," or "Yahweh says to my Adoni". We must be very careful in reading back the Christian understanding of what that is saying into a time before Christianity and thinking that they would have thought of the same meaning or that it was clear to them what was actually being said.

If you can provide Jewish sources, particularly sources from around that time that would support any notion that even some Jews saw such passages as revealing God as triune, then you may have a point. Even if part of God's purpose in Scripture was to reveal himself as triune, I think it is clear that the Jews likely never understood him to be such or even considered that he had a son.


Apart from again reading a Christian interpretation back into the OT, this furthers my argument. The God of the OT, Yahweh, is the God of the NT. The Jews of the OT worshiped Yahweh, the NT writers worshiped Yahweh and even wrote that their ancestors worshiped Yahweh:

2Ti 1:3 I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. (ESV)

So, once again, if we say that the god that Muslims worship isn't Yahweh, based on the fact that Muslims deny Jesus is the Son of God, then we must be consistent and say the same for the Jews of the OT and the god they followed. But this is contradictory since the God the Jews worshiped was Yahweh and the whole NT acknowledges this same God as the one true God.

My point is (as I'm sure you would agree) that God is unchanging. That Jesus is God in both Testaments. That when OT Jews were led astray they were rejecting Yahweh, and by extension rejecting Jesus whether they perceived Yahweh's triunity or not. As Sinthesis pointed out, Yahweh always reserved a remnant of righteous Jews to steer the masses back to Him. I asked if Yahweh ever revealed His triune nature to OT Jews, not necessarily if they perceived such a revelation. I asked because according to Islam, God only revealed Himself to be a spiritless, non-begetting, non-begotten god. According to Islam, Jesus was a mere prophet of this un-triune god, not God in the flesh.

As I've asked numerous times before:
If we cannot trust what Muhammed said about the nature of Jesus, how can we trust anything he said about the nature of God?

 

[stovebolts]

Muhammed, the founder of Islam, was the one who first claimed that Arabs were descendants of Ishmael.

Now there is a new piece of information that I've never heard before that totally puts this argument to rest. Can you verify that it was truly Muhammed that made this claim as a new revelation to the Muslims? I have always assumed that the idea of Ishmael was written and oral tradition from the Muslims well before Muhammad came on the scene.

Very good

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Now there is a new piece of information that I've never heard before that totally puts this argument to rest. Can you verify that it was truly Muhammed that made this claim as a new revelation to the Muslims? I have always assumed that the idea of Ishmael was written and oral tradition from the Muslims well before Muhammad came on the scene.

Very good

As I've stated in other threads: the pre-Islamic Arabs in Mecca were pagans and had been prostrating themselves around the "black stone" long before Muhammed invented Islam. There was no such thing as a "Muslim" prior to Muhammed and his false religion.

Sura Al-Baqarah is where Muhammed "reveals" that Abraham & Isma'il (Ishmael) founded Mecca, built the Kaaba there, and petitioned Allah to make them and their offspring Muslims.

2:125 Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

2:126 And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"

2:127 And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.

2:128 "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

Where in Scripture does Abraham & Ishmael build a temple in Mecca?

Where in Scripture does Ishmael settle in Mecca?

 

[Stan53]

As I've stated in other threads: the pre-Islamic Arabs in Mecca were pagans and had been prostrating themselves around the "black stone" long before Muhammed invented Islam. There was no such thing as a "Muslim" prior to Muhammed and his false religion.

I disagree they were pagans, based on the following.

First you will find Gen 17:20; And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
Then in Gen 25:13-18 we read; These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. 16 These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. 17 Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. 18 His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them.

The area Ishmael's descendants settled is modern Arabia, as the following map shows.

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-red-sea-sinai.htm

​

 

[Drummer4Christ]

The area Ishmael's descendants settled is modern Arabia, as the following map shows.

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-red-sea-sinai.htm

​

Yes, but Muhammed claimed that Ishmael settled in Mecca, not Paran as stated in Genesis 21:21

While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

The Bible locates Paran near Israel (Canaan) and Egypt, south of Judah. John L. McKenzie in his Dictionary of the Bible notes:


Paran (Hb pa'ran, most frequently the name of a desert region). The place name Elparan (Gn 14:6) no doubt is associated with the desert; this place is thought to be identical with Elath by some scholars. The desert of Paran was the home of the Ishmaelites (Gn 21:21). It was, the itinerary according to P (cf. PENTATEUCH), reached by the Israelites after the desert of Sinai (Nm 10:12), and they camped in this desert for some time (Nm 10:12; 13:3, 26, mission and return of the scouts). In Dt 1:1 Paran is vaguely defined as a place in the desert. Hadad of Edom passed through the desert of Paran on his journey from Midian to Egypt (1 Kings 11:18). The mountains of Paran are the place from which the theophany appears (Dt 33:2; Hab. 3:3); like most other names mentioned in the theophanies, Paran reflects the region S of Judah. The desert of Paran is probably that region of the Negeb which lies S of Kadesh-barnea.


Compare this with other OT scripture:


"In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim and the Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the desert. Then they turned back and went to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as well as the Amorites who were living in Hazazon Tamar." Genesis 14:5-7

"On the twentieth day of the second month of the second year, the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle of the Testimony. Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. They set out, this first time, at the LORD's command through Moses." Numbers 10:11-13

"So Miriam was confined outside the camp for seven days, and the people did not move on till she was brought back. After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran." Numbers 12:15-16

"The LORD said to Moses, "Send some men to explore the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites. From each ancestral tribe send one of its leaders.' So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites." Numbers 13:1-3

"At the end of forty days they returned from exploring the land. They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land. They gave Moses this account: 'We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.'" Numbers 13:25-27

"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan-that is, in the Arabah-opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (It takes eleven days to go from Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by the Mount Seir road.)" Deuteronomy 1:1-2


Surely, you're not suggesting that during the 40 year desert wandering of Moses & the Israelites that they travelled from Sinai all the way to Mecca and back?


"Now Samuel died; and all Israel assembled and mourned for him. They buried him at his home in Ramah. Then David got up and went down to the wilderness of Paran." 1 Samuel 25:1

Should we assume David travelled to Mecca, as well?


Though it may be true that some of the descendants of Ishmael settled in Arabia, that doesn't mean they were necessarily the father of Arabs. In fact, Muslim tradition affirms that Ishmael was not the father of Arabs:

Ishmael is the son of Ibrahim (Abraham) b. Tarih (Azar) b. Nahur b. Sarugh b. Rau'u b. Falikh b. 'Aybar b. Shalikh b. Arfakhshadh b. Sam (Shem) b. Nuh (Noah). (Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, p. 3)


'Ad b. 'Aus b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh and Thamud and Jadis the two sons of 'Abir b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh, and Tasm and 'Imlaq and Umayan the sons of Lawidh b. Sam b. Nuh are all Arabs. Nabit b. Isma'il begat Yashjub and the line runs: Ta'rub-Tayrah-Bahur-Muqawwan-Udad-'Adnan. (Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, p. 4)

This demonstrates that Arabs existed long before Ishmael was even born since according to this tradition, Ishmael's great-great-great-great-great uncles were already the Arabs!

 

[Stan53]

Yes, but Muhammed claimed that Ishmael settled in Mecca, not Paran as stated in Genesis 21:21

While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

The Bible locates Paran near Israel (Canaan) and Egypt, south of Judah. John L. McKenzie in his Dictionary of the Bible notes:


Paran (Hb pa'ran, most frequently the name of a desert region). The place name Elparan (Gn 14:6) no doubt is associated with the desert; this place is thought to be identical with Elath by some scholars. The desert of Paran was the home of the Ishmaelites (Gn 21:21). It was, the itinerary according to P (cf. PENTATEUCH), reached by the Israelites after the desert of Sinai (Nm 10:12), and they camped in this desert for some time (Nm 10:12; 13:3, 26, mission and return of the scouts). In Dt 1:1 Paran is vaguely defined as a place in the desert. Hadad of Edom passed through the desert of Paran on his journey from Midian to Egypt (1 Kings 11:18). The mountains of Paran are the place from which the theophany appears (Dt 33:2; Hab. 3:3); like most other names mentioned in the theophanies, Paran reflects the region S of Judah. The desert of Paran is probably that region of the Negeb which lies S of Kadesh-barnea.


Compare this with other OT scripture:


"In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim and the Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the desert. Then they turned back and went to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as well as the Amorites who were living in Hazazon Tamar." Genesis 14:5-7

"On the twentieth day of the second month of the second year, the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle of the Testimony. Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. They set out, this first time, at the LORD's command through Moses." Numbers 10:11-13

"So Miriam was confined outside the camp for seven days, and the people did not move on till she was brought back. After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran." Numbers 12:15-16

"The LORD said to Moses, "Send some men to explore the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites. From each ancestral tribe send one of its leaders.' So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites." Numbers 13:1-3

"At the end of forty days they returned from exploring the land. They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land. They gave Moses this account: 'We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.'" Numbers 13:25-27

"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan-that is, in the Arabah-opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (It takes eleven days to go from Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by the Mount Seir road.)" Deuteronomy 1:1-2


Surely, you're not suggesting that during the 40 year desert wandering of Moses & the Israelites that they travelled from Sinai all the way to Mecca and back?


"Now Samuel died; and all Israel assembled and mourned for him. They buried him at his home in Ramah. Then David got up and went down to the wilderness of Paran." 1 Samuel 25:1

Should we assume David travelled to Mecca, as well?


Though it may be true that some of the descendants of Ishmael settled in Arabia, that doesn't mean they were necessarily the father of Arabs. In fact, Muslim tradition affirms that Ishmael was not the father of Arabs:

Ishmael is the son of Ibrahim (Abraham) b. Tarih (Azar) b. Nahur b. Sarugh b. Rau'u b. Falikh b. 'Aybar b. Shalikh b. Arfakhshadh b. Sam (Shem) b. Nuh (Noah). (Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, p. 3)


'Ad b. 'Aus b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh and Thamud and Jadis the two sons of 'Abir b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh, and Tasm and 'Imlaq and Umayan the sons of Lawidh b. Sam b. Nuh are all Arabs. Nabit b. Isma'il begat Yashjub and the line runs: Ta'rub-Tayrah-Bahur-Muqawwan-Udad-'Adnan. (Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, p. 4)

This demonstrates that Arabs existed long before Ishmael was even born since according to this tradition, Ishmael's great-great-great-great-great uncles were already the Arabs!

You are really ALL over the place.

1. I don't care what the Quran or Mohamed said about Ishmael, I trust the Bible.
2. Genesis being the beginning of mankind, predates anything in the scriptures you quoted.
3. If Ishmael's sons settled the area of Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur, then obviously they were the progenitors of the Arabs.

I'm not really sure what it is exactly you are trying to prove or make a point on, but it seems you're are back and forth on this issue.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

You are really ALL over the place.

1. I don't care what the Quran or Mohamed said about Ishmael, I trust the Bible.
2. Genesis being the beginning of mankind, predates anything in the scriptures you quoted.
3. If Ishmael's sons settled the area of Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur, then obviously they were the progenitors of the Arabs.

I'm not really sure what it is exactly you are trying to prove or make a point on, but it seems you're are back and forth on this issue.

Moses (the author of Genesis) wrote the Scriptures I quoted. With the exception of 1 Samuel, of course.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm only referring to the the pre-Islamic Arabs in Mecca. Neither Scripture, nor the map you linked to suggests that Ishmael's descendants settled anywhere near Mecca. Arabs are a pan-ethnic group, they are not nor have they been comprised of a single ethnicity i.e. Ishmaelites. Again, it was Muhammed that claimed Ishmaelite progeny of Arabs, not only as a Semitic group, but in relation to Mecca. As for Ishmaelite & Hagrite paganism, I again direct you towards Psalm 83 that I cited in an earlier post.

 

[composer]

ALL Supernatural god(s) are by way of 100% human invention!

The legitimate evidence that ANY Supernatural god(s) literally exist remains a constant zero!

 

[Grazer]

ALL Supernatural god(s) are by way of 100% human invention!

The legitimate evidence that ANY Supernatural god(s) literally exist remains a constant zero!

Interesting assertion. What criteria are you using to define legitimate evidence?

 

[Atothetheist]

ALL Supernatural god(s) are by way of 100% human invention!

The legitimate evidence that ANY Supernatural god(s) literally exist remains a constant zero!

I too am interested... To say you state this as fact is astonishing. What kind of information do you have on which you could nake such a proclaimation.

 

[Brightmorningstar]

even looking at it as a human construct :biglol Allah who doesnt have a son, is not the same as God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.