Bible Study Israel

[garethppls]

Aha, about Abraham's blessing of the Jewish people to the Gentiles. That can be answered without suggesting that the lost 10 tribes became the foundation of the lineage of certain nations. I see that is improbable.

Look to Paul's book of Galatians for the answer to this:

in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Interesting. We are already blessed through the life and ministry of Christ Jesus, who was among the Israelite nation. We are already blessed through Christ Jesus.

What does this mean in relation to the context of this thread. That we don't need to explain how we have been blessed through people of the 10 lost tribes of Israel living among us, but through faith in Christ Jesus!

Being a Gentile in Christ Jesus is enough for me. I don't need to be descended from the 10 lost tribes of Israel, although I'm sure it would make for interesting discussion.

Also I believe it utterly irrelevant what God's plan for the 10 Tribes of Israel was, I've heard ludicrous stories about it over the past while, about the prophet Jeremiah coming to Ireland etc. All that matters, is that we all can be saved whether Jew or Gentile, slave or free, by faith in Jesus.

Edit: As for quoting Thomas Jefferson, there is considerable proofs from some of his other quotations that he was a skeptic in terms of faith.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Aha, about Abraham's blessing of the Jewish people to the Gentiles. That can be answered without suggesting that the lost 10 tribes became the foundation of the lineage of certain nations. I see that is improbable.

Ge:28:14: And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

How was God going to do it again? First by the multiplicity of Jacob's seed which would go all directions, and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth (that's everyone else) be blessed. Not by Gentiles accepting Christ and doing the work for his seed instead. So, probability has nothing to do with it. It has to do with promise. God said in thy seed this shall be accomplished.

How about nations? Here's a clear verse that smacks one undeniably in the face:

Genesis 35:11-12 :And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

Not just one nation of the Jews (i.e. "God's chosen people" as it is so often stated. ) Rather, many nations. And with many kings. Later, we see that the royal lineage was to come from Judah, the tribe of the Jews, but since Jews are basically two tribes, and do not have the birthright, we must look elsewhere to find the promises given to other tribes. Which?

And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. Genesis 48:17-19

So, this was not promised to the Jew, since the Jew is mainly from the tribe of Judah (and Benjamin), but to the house of Joseph, one of the lost tribes that never returned to the land of Israel after the captivities!

Being a Gentile in Christ Jesus is enough for me. I don't need to be descended from the 10 lost tribes of Israel, although I'm sure it would make for interesting discussion.

Also I believe it utterly irrelevant what God's plan for the 10 Tribes of Israel was, I've heard ludicrous stories about it over the past while, about the prophet Jeremiah coming to Ireland etc. All that matters, is that we all can be saved whether Jew or Gentile, slave or free, by faith in Jesus.

Nobody said you had to be. The free gift of salvation is open to all in Christ Jesus. The issue here is that God used a people, in spite of themselves, to preach that blessing (Christ) to the world. That demonstrates God's faithfulness and consistency in His plan to carry out what He intended to do. To say anything else is like claiming God is fickle and can't use Israel for His original purpose. As a matter of fact, this was one of Mose's gripes to God when He threatened to destroy Israel because of their grumblings. Had God done so, He would have in effect made His promises null and void, and the devil (along with the world) would laugh God to scorn because He could not make it come to pass.

Lastly, the promise of the permanence of the nations of Judah and Israel:

Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them. Jeremiah 33:24-26

 

[garethppls]

Ge:28:14: And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Yes, through the descendants of the Israelite people. Namely through Jesus all the families of the earth will be blessed through Christianity. I don't believe that there is a reliance on the Lost Tribes of Israel to do this.

Genesis 35:11-12 :And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

Logically without even involving the Tribes. I can note 2 nations that could have come out of Abraham anyway.

The Arabs through Ishmael, Edom through Esau. I'm sure there are plenty of other nations that could have come through that lineage. Then Naaman would go back to Syria converted to the ways of the Lord, and various other figures. The Queen of Sheba, who some say had a child through King Solomon (look up the Kebra Negast) could potentially add in Ethiopia.

And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. Genesis 48:17-19

Just out of interest, just because we cannot track the 10 Tribes, why don't you think that it is possible that they could be dispersed through a more local area as opposed to the whole world. However I do suppose that there are a lot of prominent Jewish leaders across the world anyway. Why can't the 10 lost tribes of Israel be a part of the Jewish people?

Even if an ounce of us is related to the 10 tribes, the fact is that it would be very slim in comparison to the amount of the Gentile connection. I really don't see the importance or the relevance in relation to looking at the state of Israel as a nation.

It just seems to me like an incredibly fanciful interpretation or conclusion to come to.

The issue here is that God used a people, in spite of themselves, to preach that blessing (Christ) to the world. That demonstrates God's faithfulness and consistency in His plan to carry out what He intended to do.

God also used Gentiles to spread the message of Christ. God can use any people who are influenced with Christianity to preach the message. Yes the Jews did start it. I'm grateful for God's role. But I don't think it necessary to go into a further interpretation than that as long as we are all one Christian people.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Yes, through the descendants of the Israelite people. Namely through Jesus all the families of the earth will be blessed through Christianity. I don't believe that there is a reliance on the Lost Tribes of Israel to do this.

It sounds like you just contradicted yourself. Why don't you believe that God would use His people from whom Christ came? I just pointed out the verses.

Logically without even involving the Tribes. I can note 2 nations that could have come out of Abraham anyway.

The Arabs through Ishmael, Edom through Esau. I'm sure there are plenty of other nations that could have come through that lineage. Then Naaman would go back to Syria converted to the ways of the Lord, and various other figures. The Queen of Sheba, who some say had a child through King Solomon (look up the Kebra Negast).

I have to chuckle when I hear this---- no personal offense, but I hear this all the time, even from reputable ministries. The problem can be solved with genealogy. You see, this promise was stated to Jacob to be realized in his children. The Arabs from Ishmael came from Jacob's uncle, not his children. The Edomites came from his brother, not his children. Neither of these were the children of promise, nor of the lineage being talked about here although I have no problem if God gave Abraham additional children this way. I'm just saying they do not qualify for the promise of becoming many nations because the promise was not given to these genealogical lines.

why don't you think that it is possible that they could be dispersed through a more local area as opposed to the whole world?

Because the bible says they would be all over the place. When we go looking for a missing person or persons, we go by the biblical descriptions. If someone was lost wearing a blue sweater, we don't look for someone in a swimsuit.

I really don't see the importance or the relevance in relation to looking at the state of Israel as a nation.

It just seems to me like an incredibly fanciful interpretation or conclusion to come to.

Why? I cited scripture that says so, and there is much more. God said in thy seed all the families of the earth would be blessed. What is there not to understand about that straightforward interpretation? Likewise, the same goes for the passages I quoted pertaining to nations.

 

[garethppls]

Because the bible says they would be all over the place. When we go looking for a missing person or persons, we go by the biblical descriptions. If someone was lost wearing a blue sweater, we don't look for someone in a swimsuit.

I think that the 10 Tribes are still by and large among the Jewish population. The word Jew was appended to the Israelites to show their religious affiliation as time went on.

However you are correct they have interbreeded with others. I still don't get how this makes America with a settler population "Mannesseh", and the UK "Ephraim". Surely the US would by a mix of other tribes also. Or that people in Europe would also be "Mannesseh". It's more likely that the US would be majority, whatever Germany is or whatever Ireland is. Then again assuming that's where they are.

Is there any facts behind the USA being Mannesseh or is it happy guess work?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Have you tried my link above?

http://www.britam.org/

He's a Jewish scholar who could go more into detail than I can.

 

[garethppls]

I looked but I didn't find much of proof or substance.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I think the proof is there for those who want to see. The gentleman uses bible as well as historical/archaeological evidence to suggest where the migrating tribes went. There are no shortage of information regarding people such as the Cimmerians, Scythians, Gimira, Iskuza, and many others connecting Israel to the Anglo-Saxons and Celts. E. Raymond Capt (an archaeologist practicing for 40 years) did extensive work with this subject as well and is often quoted.

The theory of the lost tribes originates in the Bible as verses (such as the ones I quoted) smacks all but the most numb people in the face. From that, we use the biblical prophecies, descriptions and mentioned locations to get an excellent idea where they went. The historical/archaeological evidence backs it up and collaborates with it.

The tracing of their migration gets complex, and I rather let that to the professionals to explain. I just know the framework and am convinced that this is what happened. But one has to have faith in what the bible says about them instead of demanding proof. After all, if lost tribes were that obvious, they'd no longer be lost (or, as the bible says of them "not my people") otherwise that prophecy would contradict itself if they were known.

I find it interesting that the truth of this is a willing thick-headedness against believing it, not for lack of evidence, but an unwillingness to see it claiming there is no evidence when in actuality, the bible is enough to supply it even without the archaeological input.

 

[garethppls]

I find it interesting that the truth of this is a willing thick-headedness against believing it, not for lack of evidence, but an unwillingness to see it claiming there is no evidence when in actuality, the bible is enough to supply it even without the archaeological input.

Hm, the Bible doesn't suggest that Mannesseh is America though.

Just wondering, do the majority of Christians in the US believe that Mannesseh is America? Most Christians in Ireland if not in the rest of Europe as well would see it as ill-advised to suggest this.

After all, if lost tribes were that obvious, they'd no longer be lost (or, as the bible says of them "not my people") otherwise that prophecy would contradict itself if they were known.

I still think they are among the Jews still. However it is likely that Jewish blood has entered into other races as time has progressively moved on, but suggesting that countries are different tribes is a bit too far. If the US was a tribe at all, it would be totally mixed up due to it being a settled nation. At the same time I'm sure that if one takes a long long line of geneology, they could well be impacted by one Jew / Semite in that time. We cannot take it as precise as that though.

 

[n2thelight]

Yes we are the descendants of the lost Northern Ten Tribes of Israel. We are the chosen people of God. Look around the world, who is the last light of hope in the world? That does not mean that we are Jewish, for as you see by the division of the original 12 tribes descended from Jacob/Israel; Judah is only one of those twelve tribes, and Jews are only a small portion of them who mixed with the heathen both physically and religiously. As of Jan 2, 2000, there are only 13 million Jews on the planet (as per http://www.adherents.com), that is less than 1% of the total global population which is 6,099,686,302 (6 billion plus) as of 4:04 EDT Oct 1, 2000 per Popclockâ„¢. But in God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob He promised:

Gen 13:16
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. (KJV)

Gen 17:4
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. (KJV)

Gen 28:14
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. (KJV)

Gen 35:11
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; (KJV)

Gen 32:12
12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. (KJV)

Rom 9:27
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (KJV)

Well then, where are all these people now?!? Those that we now call 'Jews' today are only a portion of the true Tribe of Judah who have intermixed with their Babylonian captors, the heathen and profane descendants of Cain, the first murderer. In other words, all those of the tribe of Judah are not Jews, and none of the lost Ten Tribes are Jews. It is important to understand the differences so that you know who the Bible is speaking about in a particular verse.

"...and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name..." {Isa 62:2}

The Old Testament Prophets told that God would change the name of His people. They would be named after Him. And by the name "Christians" they were named after God. Jesus, which in the Hebrew language is: Yehoshua, which means: Yehovah’s (God’s) Savior, Salvation of Yehovah (God). And with Christ, His followers are called Christ men, hence: Christians.

So then, in the New Testament prophecies in the book of Revelation, Christians are Israel, God’s chosen, called by a new name (Isa 62:2 below), called by His name - Jesus Christ - Christ men - Christians.

Isa 62:2
2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. (KJV)

Isa 62:12
12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. (KJV)

Isa 65:15
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name (KJV)

Jer 33:16
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (KJV)

Acts 11:26
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (KJV)

This should clear up Revelation chapter seven where the 144,000 "sealed of Israel" are mentioned, they are Christians who, since the Assyrian captivity and deportations of 611 B.C. were stripped of their name Israel! As it is written, because of idolatry, God caused Israel to not know who they are, and the rest of the world is also ignorant as to who true Israel is today:

Deut 32:26 (God speaking)
26 I said, I would scatter them [Israel] into corners [all corners of the world], I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men (KJV)

They (Israel) are mentioned in the New Testament though, for example, the book of James is written to them, written to us: "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." {James 1:1}. And again: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." {1 Pet 1:1-2}.

 

[garethppls]

Paul notes that we are heirs to Abrahams promise by adoption!

Galatians 4:4-5

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

Yes, greeting the Jewish diaspora who were active across Europe at the time, do you not know of the Jewish communities in Greece who were mentioned in Acts.

I said, I would scatter them [Israel] into corners [all corners of the world], I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men

Yes and he did that. Look around you. Is there one continent where there aren't Jews?

This should clear up Revelation chapter seven where the 144,000 "sealed of Israel" are mentioned, they are Christians who, since the Assyrian captivity and deportations of 611 B.C. were stripped of their name Israel! As it is written, because of idolatry, God caused Israel to not know who they are, and the rest of the world is also ignorant as to who true Israel is today:

Where in chapter 7 does it say that? Do you realise that the next chapter also deals with the multitude of other nations. i.e the Gentiles.

And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. (KJV)

Yes they shall be called Christians because of their faith!

I think that theres a possibility of a miniscule amount of the blood of Israel in our lineage unless we are descended from Jews personally. But it's not even relevant. This isn't what the Christian message is about.

That does not mean that we are Jewish, for as you see by the division of the original 12 tribes descended from Jacob/Israel; Judah is only one of those twelve tribes, and Jews are only a small portion of them who mixed with the heathen both physically and religiously.

My theory differs greatly. The 10 Tribes are by and large still among the Jews. The term Jew is affiliated with religion now, not the tribe so every adherent of that would have been called Jewish, even though they may be of a different tribe.

 

[tim-from-pa]

My theory differs greatly.

That's just it---- this is all your theory. Onelove and I back what we say up with scripture and other evidence confirms it but you have your mind already on a track.

Then again, I cannot convince a skeptic about the bible, as that opens a world of diverse subjects. I believe in these lost tribes, and more so, the resurrection and faith of Christ. You can remain an agnostic if you want to on these matters regarding the tribes, and of Christ, but I know that my bible teaches that these people of God 1) would be lost 2) would endure punishment for awhile 3) God would remember his covenant again, 4) He would appoint a "place" for His people Israel, and 5) the bible gives the direction they went, and that they'd be a light to the world. Why? Back to Genesis, it says that Abraham's seed would do this. Yes, I am aware of Paul's singular seed quote, but that was Genesis 22 I believe. Other passages are plural meaning His people. Although I generally like the KJV, the NKJV uses "seed" for singular and "descendants" for plural so that we know which is which.

Just for fun, read II ESDRAS 13. Josephus even talks about the tribes. Even this apocryphal passage states they were in another land (aka Arzareth) until the time of the end before returning to Israel.

 

[garethppls]

That's just it---- this is all your theory. Onelove and I back what we say up with scripture and other evidence confirms it but you have your mind already on a track.

Scripture doesn't say that the USA is Mannesseh.

And that page you showed me has very little evidence on it if any. I actually can't believe that this is so widely accepted. There is no way that we are principally descended from the 10 Tribes, perhaps a slight input from some of the people of Israel into our blood, but not anything of significance.

Oh and that guys page you noticed I find considerably inaccurate in sections.

Q2. What is especially Israelite about Ireland?

Answer: The Irish language has a Hebrew base, Irish legends, traditions, and aspects of the Irish character all indicate Israelite origins at least in part.

As I'm continuing to study Irish (Gaeilge) in secondary school (high school), I do not see any connection between it and Hebrew. I know of Irish legends, most have a Christian base, but then again I don't think the story of Cú Chulainn is really related to Israelite origins or Christian ones for that matter. He also bases much of what he writes on Bible code, which has very little if any factual basis aside from being a coincidence.

http://www.britam.org/codesarticles/CodesIreland.html

Then again, I cannot convince a skeptic about the bible, as that opens a world of diverse subjects. I believe in these lost tribes, and more so, the resurrection and faith of Christ. You can remain an agnostic if you want to on these matters regarding the tribes, and of Christ, but I know that my bible teaches that these people of God

I'm not a skeptic. I'm not an atheist or agnostic. I'm faithful in Christ Jesus, and have been for quite a while now. I'm skeptical of your interpretation mind. I also believe that there might be a small input in our lineage from these people, but the USA is definetely not as a whole the tribe of Mannesseh. Yes, the people of Israel have added to our genetic line, but we are mostly Gentiles, and that's a fact of life unless you are a direct descendant of the Jewish people. The interpretation you hold on that isn't even the mainline view of most churches (I can only speak for the RC Church, the Anglican Communion, and what I know of Presbyterianism also in Europe I don't know much of any of those in the USA). In addition, Paul claimed that we are the adopted children of the Almighty anyway, we are already God's people. Isaiah 56 also claims that the Gentiles will be part of God's people and that his house will be a house for all the nations!

And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servant,
all who keep the sabbath and do not profane it,
and hold fast my covenant -
these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.
Thus says the Lord God who gathers the outcasts of Israel,
I will gather others to them besides those who have already been gathered.

Also if this issue was of paramount importance I thought it would have been put into the Articles of Religion of the Anglican Church: http://ireland.anglican.org/index.php?do=worship&id=14

Regardless of what some people would want you to believe, the United States of America is one nation under God and we always will be. People from every single tribe of the children of Israel live in the United States today. That is why the United States of America is more blessed by Almighty God than any other nation on earth today.

I just find it absurd to suggest that America is "blessed" because of it being of the tribe of Mannesseh. I also find it absurd to suggest that America is "blessed" more than any nation on Earth! What logical reasoning is there behind this. Does the Bible say that America is blessed more than any other nation. Then where does this come from? Given current circumstances in America I would suggest that the European nations are faring a bit better, but I certainly wouldn't say that God looks upon Europe moreso than America, God cares for all Christians. I believe this is a mixture of patriotism and religion, similar to what many propogandists. I'm sorry, but God gives His blessing to those who truly believe regardless of their descent. Christ even said to the Pharisees that they were not sons of Abraham, they were sons of the Devil. John the Baptist said just because people are related to Abraham won't be a help. So why are those descended from Abraham more likely to be blessed than Gentiles. You say that purely because America has all 12 tribes it's more blessed? Abraham was made righteous by his faith! Gentiles too can be made righteous by faith. We are all one Christian people. All to be blessed if we will it. God is more than just a protector for America!

During history, ten of the twelve tribes became "lost" and apparently were assimilated into nearby Pagan cultures. 11 Only a remnant of the combined tribes of Judah and Benjamin survived. A sizeable percentage of the lost tribes probably remained in and near modern-day Israel, and are now Palestinians. Their genetic heritage is indistinguishable from that of Jews. So, if 12,000 representatives are selected from each of the original twelve tribes, then the group might consist mostly of Palestinians.

I agree with this ^^ There is a possibility that there is a trace of Semitic descent in the Gentile world, but most of it is probably in the Middle East.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I'm not a skeptic. I'm not an atheist or agnostic. I'm faithful in Christ Jesus, and have been for quite a while now.

So. Let me get this straight. You believe that some guy died and resurrected which according to the rest of the world you'd have to be nuts to believe, but you cannot accept the fact that God would use His people Israel because He said so and instead you believe they are assimilated with Jews?

In other words, you believe a guy rose from the dead but you do not believe God can watch over a society migrating?

Societal migrations happened before. It is something that happens here on earth, and the lost tribes is an earthly doctrine.

Or..... as Jesus stated it nicely, If I told you earthly things and do not believe, (and you don't obviously) how can you believe if I told you heavenly? Jesus rose from the dead, but He can't keep track of his tribes? Don't count on it.

 

[garethppls]

I believe migration possibly happened, but most of the 10 tribes are confined to the Middle East. However some did go to Europe and ultimately interbreed with the rest of the world. But I have to say that we don't know what tribes went where. That page is incredibly sketchy, and there aren't many facts there at all. Yes, I accept that God brought people of Israel to assimilate with the Gentiles, BUT we cannot say that we are descended from them since it's only a tiny amount. We are Gentiles regardless of whether we want to accept it or not unless we had a Jewish mother / father.

Jesus has enough Biblical and historical basis, and I trust that the Bible is true. Much like yourself. That is how I can believe in Christ.

i.e You cannot say that Mannesseh is the USA, because it lacks factual reasoning behind it. I told you already that I'm a Bible alone believer. Also it's daft to suggest that the USA is more blessed than other Christian nations.

Jesus rose from the dead, but He can't keep track of his tribes? Don't count on it.

Jesus and God the Almighty know how their blood has been assimilated among us (however minor it was), but we cannot guess ourselves I see that is purely a timewaste.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Well, I can't convince a skeptic. I don't truly believe you read all the sites I gave to you, because I believe they are replete with proof and identifying marks of Israel. You think they are in the middle east. That's not where the bible describes them as being. So, if you want to debate from a scriptural point of view, you have to get your scriptural facts straight first.

Did you read the yellow box with the 5 steps at this site? http://www.britishisrael.co.uk/old/

It makes it easy, and the site also has an article with something like the 72 identifying marks of Israel. If you want to search for a missing person, you get their description, where they were last seen, etc. If you were playing the role of a police officer, I'd say my missing child was last seen on the west side of town and you'd go looking in the center! That's exactly how you are approaching this subject because you have your mind set to your notions instead of what the bible says.

You claimed you looked at http://www.britam.org and were not convinced. He has TONS of web pages on USA being Manasseh. The reason why you are not convinced is because you made up your mind before you hit the first click of your mouse.

Trust me, I used to reason and believe like you, until I saw the fallacy, then I changed, and I am not afraid to do so if I see I am wrong. But I debated this subject many times before, and I have YET to see a skeptic explain the meaning of Genesis 35:11 and Genesis 48:19 from a Jewish (or Christian) perspective. It's easy to take a few pot shots at this theory about lost tribes becoming many nations, but when the ax goes to the grindstone, the skeptics have no answer to those verses alone, and yet they are MAJOR promises in the bible. And even if one thinks they have an answer, I have tons more to answer. We can start with two.

I don't know about you, but I found in my life its time to stop being an ostrich and sweeping these major promises under the rug and hope they go away like just about every ministry does. Christ does not fulfill all these promises, as he needs a people. Jesus was from Judah, and the Jews never had the birthright like the lost house of Joseph did. I wonder, pray tell, what you think the birthright even is? And what was the point in dividing the birthright and the scepter in Israel unless there was a purpose? And yes, God had TWO nations of people because of this. If one thinks the Jews and Israelites are one, I can show scripture that says they are not until the end times. So, logically, and I logically reason as well, there must be a reason for the division.

 

[garethppls]

Yes, the Lost Ten tribes could have a small genetic influence on us. But there is no way that the USA is "more blessed" than other nations. Paul ruled out this superiority for a reason. "Jew or Gentile, slave or free". You are ruling out Pauline theology by this.

YET to see a skeptic explain the meaning of Genesis 35:11 and Genesis 48:19 from a Jewish (or Christian) perspective

And I'm not a skeptic, I'm a believer, the Bible does not say that the USA is Mannessh anywhere.Let me give you a run down of what I think it means.

God said to him 'I am God Almighty': be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall spring from you.

This is interesting okay. A nation (the State of Israel) will come from Abrahams lineage, the nation of the Jewry. However people will migrate and join with other nations, and other nations would come from Abraham, such as Edom, and Ishmael whose descendants would give to many of the Arab tribes that would have been around, in say Moab, Ammon and further afield. Yes, there will be a line of descent through the diaspora which will affect nations.

But his father refused and said 'I know my son I know; he also shall become a people, and he will also be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations"

Yes this is practically the same as the other one. Basically people of Israelite descent will spread throughout the world and affect other genetic lines. It does not mean that you need to be Israelite to be blessed though.

These quotes are actually not even mentioning how the USA is Mannesseh or how the UK is Ephraim, for all we know Ephraim could constitute the population of Ethiopia, although they already claim Judean descent through King Solomon and Queen of Sheba via the Kebra Negast. I think that the 10 Tribes have influenced us in a sense, but since Paul's writings God will bless anyone regardless of Jew or Gentile. Therefore this argument isn't even relevant!

 

[tim-from-pa]

This is interesting okay. A nation (the State of Israel) will come from Abrahams lineage, the nation of the Jewry. However people will migrate and join with other nations, and other nations would come from Abraham, such as Edom, and Ishmael whose descendants would give to many of the Arab tribes that would have been around, in say Moab, Ammon and further afield. Yes, there will be a line of descent through the diaspora which will affect nations.

Well friend, part of your answer is incorrect regarding the Arab's, Edomites, Moabites and Ammonites. These geneological lines are not from Jacob, nor are they the lines of promise. As for those in the diaspora affecting the other nations, for what purpose? That's what I am driving at. You are partly correct, but only see a passive component to it.

Yes this is practically the same as the other one. Basically people of Israelite descent will spread throughout the world and affect other genetic lines. It does not mean that you need to be Israelite to be blessed though.

Again, for what reason are they to become many nations? AS for being blessed, I sense a subconscious resentment on the part of many people regarding this blessing. The bible says why---- to show the glory of God, not because of some inherant superiority of the people. When people take offense at another group being blessed, that shows to me a subconscious desire for superiority themselves and are showing their jealousy.

No, there are TWO types of elect. There is the elect of RACE (Israel) and the elect of GRACE (I need not explain that). God would use the elect of RACE for the few of the election of GRACE to spread His word. I am not talking about blessing having to do with salvation when Israel would become many nations. That is an EARTHLY blessing by which God would use to bring His spiritual blessing to the rest of the fallen world.

This is why I quoted Jesus earlier. Trust me, it takes less faith to blelieve that God took care of the tribes and made nations from them than it takes to believe in the resurrection.

As for the US being Manasseh, one has to deduce that from Scripture. What does Scripture say about God's people? I have to go now, but more on that shortly.

 

[garethppls]

Well friend, part of your answer is incorrect regarding the Arab's, Edomites, Moabites and Ammonites. These geneological lines are not from Jacob, nor are they the lines of promise. As for those in the diaspora affecting the other nations, for what purpose? That's what I am driving at. You are partly correct, but only see a passive component to it.

But from Abraham the patriarch whereby the original promise was made.

This is why I quoted Jesus earlier. Trust me, it takes less faith to blelieve that God took care of the tribes and made nations from them than it takes to believe in the resurrection.

As for the US being Manasseh, one has to deduce that from Scripture. What does Scripture say about God's people? I have to go now, but more on that shortly.

I believe that God knows where the tribes are alright, but we don't, and it's a waste of time guessing.

As for deducting that from scripture, I could deduct that Botswana is actually Mannesseh.

As for the British Israelite links, that doesn't wash too well due to it's use during the occupation of Ireland for 700 years. It was used as a means of superiority to lord over Irish people and discriminate them among other means. Actually there was claims that the Irish didn't have Israelite descent whereas the British did, and this was the reason that the Irish were inferior. See I don't like the use of the 10 Tribes like this as follows, it totally rules out Paul's scriptures. This is the height of what people do by referring to the 10 Tribes. Even the OP has done it in the first post by saying "America is the most blessed".

 

[tim-from-pa]

But from Abraham the patriarch whereby the original promise was made.

Yes, then Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph. Not to uncles, cousins or brothers. You are actually trying to fit the square peg in the round hole of unblessed lineages, and you have no biblical support whatsoever to what you are saying. Paul said that the promise was thru Isaac's seed alluding to the incident where Abraham almost sacrificed him.

As for deducting that from scripture, I could deduct that Botswana is actually Mannesseh

That's a good one, and I assume you are saying this tongue-in-cheek. Well, I did not even get to the other marks of Israel yet (although you can get a jump start by looking at those sites so that you know where I come from).

I had to look Botswana up to see where it is located. That rules it out as being "great" if I don't know who they are. Let's check scripture shall we about Manasseh?

And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great


So, already you contradicted that scripture. Again, the ID we're looking for is someone in a sweater and you just located a person in a swimsuit. I don't see the logic in that.

I find that you approach this subject the same way many did that I talked with. They demand proof in scripture, which I give, and either gets dismissed or reinterpreted to fit their notions. Then when I ask, "Well who are the lost tribes then?" I get so many crazy answers that clearly contradict what scripture says. I gave you TWO passages and already what you offer is contradicting them. I don't think the burden of proof should reside with me any longer. Now, I want your proof.