Bible Study Israel

[tim-from-pa]

Another mark of Israel:

Isaiah 49 speaks of Israel and the direction they went.

Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.

Besides being far, the bible describes them to the ends of the earth.

There is no Hebrew word for for "northwest" and the two directions were used in a conjunction. Northwest Europe, England and the eastern coasts of the United States where we first settled are all northwest of Israel. As a matter of fact, they all are on the same line (great circle) of the earth. If I arrive at the eastern USA and make an ABOUT FACE 180º towards the Northeast, Both England and Israel are in the same direction in the northeast.

How about the other way? Yes, that line goes near to Australia. And I find it interesting that theologians do not know where "Sinim" really is, but the the Vulgate translation had it "Australi" meaning a land in the south (to the ends of the earth). I thought that was interesting that it just so "happened" to be translated that way.

 

[garethppls]

I could also argue for Greenland, Iceland or Canada as opposed to the UK or the USA.

Does that Isaiah verse explicitly mention the 10 Tribes, could you quote it with the verse before and the verse after.

So, already you contradicted that scripture. Again, the ID we're looking for is someone in a sweater and you just located a person in a swimsuit. I don't see the logic in that.

I'm sure some could argue that Botswana is great.

That is a rather subjective way at looking at it. I don't consider America to be great at all in comparison to Europe as a continent. Greatness is determined by each individual. I consider Ireland to be great. Economically Ireland is more prosperous than the UK in terms of growth, does that make it greater? There are various variables one can apply to greatness.

I think that the tribes are all over the world but just because some people think Britain and the USA are better than other countries then it has to be there. Do you see where I am coming from in relation to that view being very subjective? Those outside either of those two nations could argue differently. Some could argue that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is great, or Mexico.

Do you see how this attitude can be manipulated? I believe this is what Britain did to make herself look superior to other countries in the Commonwealth, including Ireland until 1921.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Well, when we are talking great, the primary context was population size and nationality. I still don't think Botswana fits, nor has it historically.

Saudi Arabia? Wrong direction. We already know these are the sons of Ishmael.

Europe greater? Now we are honing in more on this. Yes, it could be, but us BI folks already teach this is part of Israel, at least many of them. The British Commonwealth is greater than the US, at least historically, although the bible predicts their waning. That fits Ephraim, the brother of Manasseh.

How about Canada being that great nation? Well, it is technically under the crown. The context of the verse is that Manasseh would be separate from Ephraim. If you look at that gentleman's site (britam.org) then we see that this verse implied a type of people wanting a representation type of government.

BTW, just for reference, when I talk about "Israel", I mean primarily the birthright tribe of Joseph since the promises went to them and the bible also calls Israel "Ephraim", etc at times. The other European nations are from the tribes associated with the Northern House of Israel. They too would enjoy blessings, but the primary national and earthly blessings would fall on Joseph (not to be confused with being blessed as in salvation, but the national blessings would be used to perpetuate the gospel).

Now, I already gave just a few scriptures. There's many more. But using them we can get closer and closer as to why we believe United States and Britain were of the tribe of Joseph. I'm all ears if anyone can come up with other nations that fit, but when we look at the scripture, any other nation suggested has not passed the scriptural test of their descriptions.

 

[garethppls]

BTW, just for reference, when I talk about "Israel", I mean primarily the birthright tribe of Joseph since the promises went to them and the bible also calls Israel "Ephraim", etc at times. The other European nations are from the tribes associated with the Northern House of Israel. They too would enjoy blessings, but the primary national and earthly blessings would fall on Joseph (not to be confused with being blessed as in salvation, but the national blessings would be used to perpetuate the gospel).

I have a serious issue with this quote. This assumes that God cannot bless whoever He deems fit to bless. God will bless those who are Gentiles also if they come in faith. This is the construct of what the New Covenant is about. God will bless those when He sees it fit to bless.

"Likewise when a foreigner, who is not of your people Israel, comes from a distant land because of your name - for they shall hear of your great name, your mighty hand, and your outstretched arm - when a foreigner comes and prays towards this house, then hear in heaven your dwelling-place, and do according to all that the foreigner calls to you, so that all the peoples of the earth may fear you, as do your people Israel, and so that they may know that your name has been invoked on this house that I have built"

 

[tim-from-pa]

I have a serious issue with this quote. This assumes that God cannot bless whoever He deems fit to bless. God will bless those who are Gentiles also if they come in faith. This is the construct of what the New Covenant is about. God will bless those when He sees it fit to bless.

I never said He did not. I already said that I was referencing national blessings. But God has every right, which you seem to question, to pick a race of people in whom this would be accomplished. And again, you are confusing race with grace. There are two types of election. One can be racial elect of God and still receive the promises yet still end up in hell. And another can be purely Gentile and elect of grace even though as a people were not nationally blessed. They can join the commonwealth of Israel as you pointed out. As for the promise, it clearly says in Genesis 12:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

How? By using Abraham's seed. Clear as crystal. And we hardly left the book of Genesis---- there's more that I did not state, and there's more on those sites I supplied.

 

[Secret Identity]

Truth.
Go SC !

 

[nadab]

At Genesis 22:16-18, God told Abraham: "‘By myself I do swear,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’â€Â

Abraham's fleshly "seed" later became the nation of Israel (meaning "Contender With God, or, God Contends"), but the "seed" by which "all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves" proved not to be fleshly Israel. Later, when Jacob was upon his deathbed, he gave prophetic statements concerning his sons, the "12 tribes of Israel", with Joseph's two son, Manasseh and Ephraim, being, in effect, adopted by Jacob as equals with his sons, with Ephraim supplanting Reuben as firstborn and Levi having "no inheritance...among the sons of Israel".(Num 26:62; Deut 18:1,2; Gen 49) The "12 tribes of Israel" grew into a nation of perhaps some 3 million by the time the exodus from Egypt.(Ex 12:37,38)

Thus, from Abraham's "loins" came forth a nation that became fleshly Israel. In 1513 B.C.E., three months after their exodus, these were given the opportunity to become "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."(Ex 19:6) However, over the course of fifteen hundred years until the arrival of the Messiah in 29 C.E., as a nation, these proved disloyal to the Law covenant that was inaugurated at Mount Sinai. Hence, after 3 years of ministering to the nation of fleshly Israel, Jesus gave an illustration, saying: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it, but found none. Then he said to the vinedresser, ‘Here it is three years that I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, but have found none. Cut it down! Why really should it keep the ground useless?’ In reply he said to him, ‘Master, let it alone also this year, until I dig around it and put on manure; and if then it produces fruit in the future, [well and good]; but if not, you shall cut it down.’â€Â(Luke 13:6-9)

When Jesus gave this illustration, he had been endeavoring to cultivate faith among members of the Jewish nation. Jesus intensified his activity, “fertilizing†the symbolic fig treeâ€â€the Jewish nationâ€â€and affording it an opportunity to produce fruit. Before Jesus died, however, it became evident that the nation in general had rejected the Messiah, for just three days before his death, he said of the nation: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,â€â€how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you. For I say to you, you will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’â€Â(Matt 23:37-39; Ps 118:26)

Thus, God abandoned the nation of Israel, with these never seeking to find favor according to God's arrangement of worship. Jesus thereby indicated that soon God would no longer accept the form of worship practiced at the typical temple in Jerusalem. It would no longer be “a house of prayer for all the nations.†When his disciples pointed out to Jesus the magnificent temple buildings, he said: “Do you not behold all these things? . . . By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.â€Â(Matthew 24:1, 2) Earlier, Jesus had said: "Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:42,43; Ps 118:22,23)

The apostle Paul wrote concerning his own nation of Israel, that "I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God."(Rom 10:2,3) Thus, the nation of fleshly Israel were spurned from being God's people, replaced with a "nation producing its fruits", as the "Israel of God".(Gal 6:16) These had rejected "the chief cornerstone" of God's spiritual temple, as the apostle Peter said, the "head of the corner".(Acts 4:11)

At Romans 9, the apostle Paul said that "I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart" concerning the nation of fleshly Israel. He, however, clearly recognized that God had replaced them with a spiritual "nation", saying: "However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.†Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.†That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed."(Rom 9:6-8)

Therefore, fleshly Israel is not Abraham's "seed", but rather "the children by the promise are counted as the seed", those selected to serve as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies†of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God’s people; you were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy."(1 Pet 2:9,10; Hos 2:23)

These are chosen out all nations, receiving "a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!†The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together."(Rom 8:15-17) These are the "Israel of God", those who are anointed with God's spirit and become his adopted "sons", "joint heirs with Christ". These are the same as the 144,000 spoken of at Revelation 7:4 and 14:1. These have become a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation" and have replaced the nation of fleshly Israel, producing the fruits of God's kingdom. Fleshly Israel is a militarized nation, having rejected God's "chief cornerstone" and are looking for a political messiah.

By means of the "Israel of God" as Abraham's "seed", with Jesus as the primary "seed"(Gal 3:16), "all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves".(Gen 22:18) These have the hope of serving in the official capacity as "kings and priests" in heaven.(Rev 1:6, King James Bible) These will then apply the shed blood of Jesus in behalf of others, for they are serving as "priests", just as the Levites under the Mosaic Law. Of these "others", Jesus said: "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth."(Matt 5:5) Then later, in the Lord's Prayer, he taught us to pray for ' God's kingdom to come, for God's will to take place on this earth, as in heaven.' (Matt 6:10) Hence, those who are "meek ones"(King James Bible),will be those who also bless themselves by means of exercising faith in Jesus shed blood.

These "meek ones" are to inherit the earth forever, and are further brought to our attention at Revelation 22:1,2, which says: "And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations." These "nations" are ones from all parts of the earth who have submitted to God's kingdom, under the leadership of Jesus Christ and have the wonderful hope of living on this earth forever in a paradise.(Luke 23:43)