It Is Finished...

[GodsGrace]

sorry but it dos not if one can not believe on the finished works of the cross . there not saved

What exactly did Jesus finish?
You like the debt payment theory of atonement...
There are others.

So what debt did Jesus pay off?
People were saved by faith even in the O.T., right?

 

[JLB]

sorry but it dos not if one can not believe on the finished works of the cross . there not saved

How about living a life of believing and obeying Jesus Christ, as He leads us in the path of Life.


Today is the day of salvation.




JLB

 

[ezra]

How about living a life of believing and obeying Jesus Christ, as He leads us in the path of Life.


Today is the day of salvation.




JLB

that is part of the finished works of the Cross . see once again we want to complicate things. many out there only has fire insurance Jesus said seek ye first the kingdom of God and his Righteousness and all these thingsssss will be added put him first instead of us.. its all part of the plan led of the spirit

 

[ezra]

You like the debt payment theory of atonement...

not THEORY but a fact ! actually FAITH does not save Grace does faith opens the door for grace to come

So what debt did Jesus pay off?

why do you ask all these questions when you answered them in post # 1
its like i am being placed on a witness stand and bombed with silly questions . yes the Atonement is very real a very BIG factor not only did he pay the sin debt Hebrews 10 if my memory serves me right . but everything we get === GRACE was paid for at the cross . if you all want to discuss what he did for us at the cross with scriptures great im game.. but no more questions or silly statements of theory of atonement.

i aint interested in theory that you suggested

debt payment theory of atonement---------- i find this insulting

 

[ezra]

is the BLOOD ATONEMENT the payment it is finished a theory ?



8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[JLB]

that is part of the finished works of the Cross . see once again we want to complicate things. many out there only has fire insurance Jesus said seek ye first the kingdom of God and his Righteousness and all these thingsssss will be added put him first instead of us.. its all part of the plan led of the spirit

How is me living in obedience to Christ, by walking according to the Spirit, an example of the finished work of Christ?


Maybe I’m not understanding you.


Could you share the scripture you are referring to about the finished work of Christ?




JLB

 

[ezra]

Maybe I’m not understanding you.

your probably right... if maybe just maybe you would associate every thing with the finished work of the cross.. you just might understand here is a clue what came after the cross or should i say what happened at the cross.. what happened after the cross then what did jesus tell us he would do ,,, honestly for a man who knows the Bible you sure like to question the finished works of the cross.. see for Christ part it is finished for us it just begins.. yes i knew better to even reply in the beginning.

i might just as well finish it seem in this forum it is either Black or white wrong or right.... seldom a agreement like the so called vision

 

[GodsGrace]

is the BLOOD ATONEMENT the payment it is finished a theory ?



8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

I don't know Ezra....
You could be so difficult to speak to at times....
There are several theories of Atonement.
Not just one.
Books have been written on this and a study can be made.

I don't claim to know all of them by memory,,,but I do know a few and each one is important to understand. They explain WHY Jesus had to die on the cross...there are many reasons...not just for the forgiveness of sin...which BTW, were forgiven even in the O.T. by faith.

The following is very interesting and can be a start.

If you're not interested, that's fine too.

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

 

[ezra]

I don't know Ezra....
You could be so difficult to speak to at times....
There are several theories of Atonement.
Not just one.
Books have been written on this and a study can be made.

I don't claim to know all of them by memory,,,but I do know a few and each one is important to understand. They explain WHY Jesus had to die on the cross...there are many reasons...not just for the forgiveness of sin...which BTW, were forgiven even in the O.T. by faith.

The following is very interesting and can be a start.

If you're not interested, that's fine too.

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

i dont need a theory scripture says with out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin
New International Version
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
jesus died on the cross for the penalty of our sin .. if you want to follow some guru who wrote a book of theories .be my guest

You could be so difficult to speak to at times....

and your easy to speak to ? lol not impressed with the author Atonement----> fact not theory

 

[ezra]

were forgiven even in the O.T. by faith.

scripture that says that? them exact words

 

[GodsGrace]

i dont need a theory scripture says with out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin
New International Version
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
jesus died on the cross for the penalty of our sin .. if you want to follow some guru who wrote a book of theories .be my guest and your easy to speak to ? lol not impressed with the author Atonement----> fact not theory

E,
I don't post links because of WHO wrote them or what book they wrote or because they're my guru.

I post them because they agree with what I've learned from mainline churches and theologians that teach.

 

[GodsGrace]

scripture that says that? them exact words

Huh?
What was the sacrificial system for?
Leviticus 4:31

New American Standard Bible 'Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the LORD. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

Was Abraham not saved?
Did he go to hell?

You want exact words that persons in the O.T. were forgiven their sins? Do you think no one before Jesus was?

Galatians 3:6-9
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham


Didn't Abel have favor in the eyes of God?
etc......

 

[ezra]

Huh?
What was the sacrificial system for?
Leviticus 4:31

​

New American Standard Bible 'Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the LORD. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

Was Abraham not saved?
Did he go to hell?

You want exact words that persons in the O.T. were forgiven their sins? Do you think no one before Jesus was?

Galatians 3:6-9
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham


Didn't Abel have favor in the eyes of God?
etc......

the o.t sacrificial system was temporal Christ atonement which you consider theory was permanent.. the rest of your questions i will not answer.simply because you make mor silly questions

 

[ezra]

I post them because they agree with what I've learned from mainline churches and theologians that teach.

thank goodness i dont belong to the main line church

 

[Walpole]

It was through His passion, death and resurrection that was planned even before the foundation of the world that Jesus would come to earth and fulfill the sacrificial part of the laws that by the grace of God all who will believe in Jesus and are obedient to God's commands will have life eternal with the Father, Matthew 5:17, 18; John 3:16; John 17:4. That was accomplished on the cross when Jesus said it is finished, hung his head as he died giving up the ghost. Then buried and raised from His grave on the third day as He now sits at the right hand of God making intercession for all who will come to Him, Romans 8:34.

But again, when He said those words ("It is finished"), He had not yet died nor resurrected.

 

[Walpole]

You bring up a very interesting point.

When Jesus died on the cross the veil was torn open from top to bottom. The N.T. speaks of something not really understood by anyone, the opening of the tombs and some coming out.

Theologians do all agree that when the veil was torn, the gates of heaven were opened for those that had gone before and those that would die after.

So much of what Jesus was supposed to do had been finished at His death.

But then why is the resurrection so important?
Is it a part of the sacrifice?

I don't think so. I can't be dogmatic about this since I've never studied this.

It seems to me that the resurrection occurred to show that Jesus had won death and thus He also won our bondgage to sin and the enemy.

1 Corinthians 15:12-19
12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

The Apostle explicitly states, as you quoted above, that if Christ has not risen, then you are not redeemed and are thus "still in your sins."

The Apostle affirms this to the faithful at Rome as well...

"...Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification."(Romans 4:25)

For those stating the act of redemption is what our Lord meant on the cross, shouldn't He have said, "It is almost finished", given He had not yet died nor resurrected?

 

[Walpole]

I'm not interpreting John 17:4. I'm quoting Jesus.

And there's obviously a connection between the prophesy and his words.

This was the last prophesy which was fulfilled before he died. Jesus accomplished what the Father gave him to do. The prophecy was fulfilled. And then he died.

So you could say he accomplished everything the Father gave him to do on earth. Then he died. But this doesn't make his passion, death and resurrection unnecessary. This is just about what he accomplished while in his flesh.

But again, He had not yet died nor rose from the dead (in his flesh).

Help me understand.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Apostle explicitly states, as you quoted above, that if Christ has not risen, then you are not redeemed and are thus "still in your sins."

The Apostle affirms this to the faithful at Rome as well...

"...Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification."(Romans 4:25)

For those stating the act of redemption is what our Lord meant on the cross, shouldn't He have said, "It is almost finished", given He had not yet died nor resurrected?

The resurrection PROVES that Jesus' sacrifice was acceptable to God.

It proves that Jesus is God.

It proves that we too will be resurrected in body one day.

IF Jesus remained dead, then we could not have had faith in HIM.

If the resurrection is not true...Christianity is a lie.

I think this is what it means.
Your last question is a good one, however.
I need to study up on this a little....

Just from what I know now, I believe the resurrection is PROOF.

 

[Walpole]

I'm just going through this thread now....sorry if I'm repeating.

What happened in the Upper Room....

Jesus instituted communion....
He offered His body as bread
and His blood as wine.

He said to remember this whenever the believers would meet in the future (do this in remembrance of Me).

There's a connection here.
He was offering His body and blood....
and the next day it happened literally.
Luke 22:14.........

What happened on Good Friday began on Holy Thursday. Without the context of Holy Thursday, what happened on Good Friday was nothing more than a brutal Roman execution.

The passion of Christ actually began at the Last Supper, where the new covenant was established and instituted...

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" (Mt. 26:26-28)

"And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, 'Take; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, 'This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.'" (Mark 14:22-24)

"And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me' And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'" (Luke 22:19-20)


It is at this moment when the new Moses, Jesus Christ, fulfills the type / figure of the old covenant of Moses in Exodus with the new reality of the Eucharistic sacrifice...


Exodus 24 (The figure) ---> The hill, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Moses, the covenant, the eating the drinking and communion with God ---> Points to the reality of the new now being fulfilled by Jesus Christ ---> The Upper Room, the altar, the twelve, the blood, the New Moses, the new covenant, the eating and drinking and communion with God.

This is finished (consummated) on the Cross on Good Friday.

 

[WIP]

"It is finished" could be referring to everything that Jesus came to do on earth as incarnate man was completed.