It shall not be so among you.

[Sparkey]

What is most commonly seen in churches is a pastoral position that is something ENTIRELY different from the elders and the leadership position of pastoring the church the appointed elders were commissioned to have.

First off, let me state that I believe in pastoral authority as described in the Bible. Pastors are given to the church, those who have been called out and it is my belief that this gift is both Godly and Scriptural. On the other hand, the Bible is also clear about the type of leadership style a Pastor is to take. It is to be Christlike. Period. In contrast, church leadership is to be fashioned according to the way that the unsaved order themselves where those on 'top' are given greater esteem than the ones that are being lead. This much is clear: we are to follow after God and not our selfish desires.

Now, having said that I am in support of the Scriptural 'hierarchy' of church leadership, and after acknowledging that there are many Scriptures given that teach more specifically what is meant, I would also like to state that I have read nothing in the Bible about Corporations and that part of me challenges the path that many Pastors have taken while creating their 'business plan' and seeking 501(c)(3) status with their respective governments. Jesus states that we are to look at the money and to determine whose face appears on our coins. Ceasar? Then render to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar. My thought is that it is not too much of a leap for a Christian, who wants to follow Jesus to look at his money too. If in the United States the picture may not be Ceasar, but instead it could be George Washington. The principle still applies.

Many churches have accepted bribes in the form of tax exemptions in exchange for their agreement that sermons do not endorse or speak against those running for public office. These bribes are not the issue, but I'm just saying that this is the initial thought that goes along at the 'birth' of corporate churchdom. What authority forms a corporation? Is this not the 'state'? So then, can those pastors who have formed their organizations through the auspices of the various governments correctly state that their church is formed by God? Perhaps they can. It does seem to be an issue though. We are to avoid even the appearance of evil, are we not?

But then after the forming of the corporate church are there other "offices" that are also formed? In the business charters that are created are there lists of men who have been designated as "CEO" and/or "President"? Is this practice Biblical? I can not find anything in Scripture that justifies taking bribes or forming churches according to business models and suspect that this is behavior is behind what the thread tries to address, at least in the formation, and at worst at the heart of the ongoing 'ministry'. I know of one case where a pastor (who is also a lawyer) has formed his corporation and bylaws that prohibits expression of any opinion by his staff that is contrary to "church by-laws". These "church by-laws" were formed by him, the CEO of the church. It is a multi-million dollar enterprise.

To this, one may rightly say, "It shall not be so among you," as a criticism.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

First off, let me state that I believe in pastoral authority as described in the Bible. Pastors are given to the church, those who have been called out and it is my belief that this gift is both Godly and Scriptural.

First off, good points.
My question to you is so I get an understanding of what you meant above in relation to the calling and gift that pastors have as well as who it is you would describe as a pastor. Is a pastor the person that delivers the sermon and has their name on the building or are you referring to the pastor as one of many pastors within a congregation that works with his fellow congregational pastors to oversee, lead, and help the members of their congregation?

 

[Sparkey]

Jesus is the ultimate pastor and it does not matter to me if his Name is inscribed over the door. What is inscribed over the heart is what matters. He was sent by God. In the same fashion, it is very easy for me to know if a "pastor" loves me or not. I hope this answers your question.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Jesus is the ultimate pastor

Yes sir, the Bible calls him the good shepherd.

and it does not matter to me if his Name is inscribed over the door.

It may not, but why not give Him the glory that comes along with that.

What is inscribed over the heart is what matters.

Very true. From the heart proceeds the issues of life.

He was sent by God.

How can this be assumed when what we see being practiced differs from what we read in the scriptures as it pertains to the position of pastor?

In the same fashion, it is very easy for me to know if a "pastor" loves me or not.

Whether or not a pastor is a loving person that does good things has nothing to do with whether or not the position they are in is approved by the Lord. Most of the 'pastors' i know are really excellent people with good caring hearts, but those qualities do not excuse the corruption of the position described in the scriptures.

I hope this answers your question.

Not really. I may not have been clear in laying it out though. My question has to do with the specifics of what or how the word pastor is being defined. My contention is that the scriptures clearly define what it should be, but that scriptural definition is not what most think of when they encounter the term. So, when you say pastor, what/who exactly are you referring to?

 

[Obadiah]

Now, having said that I am in support of the Scriptural 'hierarchy' of church leadership, and after acknowledging that there are many Scriptures given that teach more specifically what is meant, I would also like to state that I have read nothing in the Bible about Corporations and that part of me challenges the path that many Pastors have taken while creating their 'business plan' and seeking 501(c)(3) status with their respective governments. Jesus states that we are to look at the money and to determine whose face appears on our coins. Ceasar? Then render to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar. My thought is that it is not too much of a leap for a Christian, who wants to follow Jesus to look at his money too. If in the United States the picture may not be Ceasar, but instead it could be George Washington. The principle still applies.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that churches shouldn't be run along the lines of a corporation to the point that you describe after the section of your post I quoted above, especially the example of the pastor that prohibits anyone from speaking against any of his bylaws. But I don't know if 501(c)(3) is really the cause of this or if it's just the current excuse. There have been abusive pastors that have done this kind of thing long before 501(c)(3) existed. My question to you is that in light of your mentioning of "giving to Ceasar what is Ceasar's", wouldn't you agree that had Ceasar told Christians (or the church in general) that he didn't require them to give him something, that then this statement no longer applies because the thing in question was no longer Ceasars? This is essentially what 501(c)(3) does in our times, so I just can't see the problem with it, in and of itself, as a tax break.

Now as far as 501(c)(3) causing pastors to not be able to speak against a politician or a political subject, I admit I'm not up to speed on all the details of how that works. But I do know my church is a 501(c)(3) church and the pastor seems well educated on the nuances of what that involves, and he is still allowed to take Biblical stands on political issues with no problem, and has done so many times. Perhaps the political issues surrounding 501(c)(3) are simply to make sure the church doesn't try to get so involved in secular government that we try to create a theocracy (as some religious groups have indeed tried to do in the past), in which case I would feel this is a good thing. We, as Christians, should be more focused on individual people, as Jesus was, rather than on secular government. But like I said, I'm not as familiar with the details of 501(c)(3) as I would be if I was more involved with that, so I'm just asking what's wrong with a tax break? I don't see any command in the Bible to pay taxes to a government that are over and beyond what the government is asking for.

 

[WIP]

Based on some of the posts in this thread I have to wonder how other denominations are organized. In your post above, Obadiah, you used the phrase, "any of his bylaws" with regard to pastors. In our church, the pastor does not have that kind of power. Our pastor is called as a person learned in scripture to lead us as the Holy Spirit would guide him. As congregants our responsibility to watch out for heresy in his teaching by holding what he preaches against the scriptures.

 

[Obadiah]

[MENTION=45432]WIP[/MENTION]. actually my comment about bylaws came from part of Sparrowhawk's post that I didn't quote:

I know of one case where a pastor (who is also a lawyer) has formed his corporation and bylaws that prohibits expression of any opinion by his staff that is contrary to "church by-laws". These "church by-laws" were formed by him, the CEO of the church. It is a multi-million dollar enterprise. To this, one may rightly say, "It shall not be so among you," as a criticism.

My church isn't set up this way, and the pastor certainly doesn't behave this way, so I'm not sure how other churches deal with this. I guess in re-reading it, this applied to his "staff", but personally, I think if I were part of a church where this was how the pastor behaved I would be quitting. Fortunately I've never been in one like this.

 

[ejected]

It shall not be so among you!

 

[Sparkey]

He was sent by God.

How can this be assumed when what we see...

I'm pretty sure what I meant is that Jesus (who is our ultimate 'Pastor') was sent to us by God. Sorry if the confusion regarding the antecedent of my statement originated from me, but I'm not sure that I misworded my intent, certainly if I did, it was not intentional. The way I would read it if I didn't write it is: "He [Jesus] was sent by God." That agrees with the way you've interpreted the antecedent to be Jesus when I stated:

"... and it does not matter to me if his [Jesus'] Name is [physically] inscribed over the door [of the church or not]."

What I tried to say is that our God is a God of hearts and not of superficial or temporary things like tax benefits (which don't matter) or like the artificial power structures that insecure men attempt to secure for themselves.

Regarding the heart and matters of the heart, I do not agree with you if you state that there is no Scriptural precedent for the requirement of being Christlike being applied to Pastors. The Scripture that states that the Good Shepherd love the sheep does not, in my opinion, apply to Jesus only but to all who follow after Him and especially to those who accept the position of Pastor. The crux of the matter and the end all of this type if thing may truly be answered with the question, "Does this man love those who follow him as he follows Jesus?" If there is evidence of that Christlike love seen in the person of a Pastor, I seldom have to look further and would actually consider myself on shaky ground knowing the heart of the matter is satisfied by the entire law being summed up in those things observed, that we (Pastors included) are to love God above all and that we are to love others. The commands stated above include us and the love that we are to offer to those who are appointed as overlookers of the 'flock'.

Being as my previous answer did not satisfy you, I should not expect that this one will. At the end of the matter it is the love that is in the heart of man that is the cause of his actions and if the heart is to follow Jesus and to love God above all, we can only believe that the Holy Spirit did the work, that He is joining us together and apart from any evidence to the contrary, it is my thought that the office of Pastor does not in and of itself deserve disdain. To my way of thinking, it is an honor and I don't understand, nor will I go along with, any thought to the contrary. You may, of course, but all will give an answer to God, myself included.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I'm pretty sure what I meant is that Jesus (who is our ultimate 'Pastor') was sent to us by God.

Sorry, I misunderstood you Sparrow.

it is my thought that the office of Pastor does not in and of itself deserve disdain.

Here we agree, the scripture endorse the position and details its responsibilities. The elders that act as pastors are worthy of 'double honor' according to the scriptures.

I do not agree with you if you state that there is no Scriptural precedent for the requirement of being Christlike being applied to Pastors.

No need to worry about disagreeing on this point. There are certainly behavioral guidelines for the elders that would be pastors of a congregation.

 

[WIP]

The Pastor is in no way allowed to let it go to his head or to take power and start lording it over the congregation.

 

[Sparkey]

The elders that act as pastors are worthy of 'double honor' according to the scriptures.

I've been a little confused regarding your position but I'm starting to understand better now. Let me check though. It seems that you're saying that elders are also to serve in a 'pastoral' capacity in that they too do all the functions that are described in the Bible and attributed to Pastors. Further, it appears that there is concern when we notice a Pastor who elevates himself above others.

In the Focus on Scripture forum, we are instructed to listen well and I have been trying to do this so that I might hear what you say. I don't think that I got all of it but maybe you could help me figure it out. We can look for Scripture later but for now I'd like to hear your heart on the matter.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I've been a little confused regarding your position but I'm starting to understand better now. Let me check though. It seems that you're saying that elders are also to serve in a 'pastoral' capacity in that they too do all the functions that are described in the Bible and attributed to Pastors. Further, it appears that there is concern when we notice a Pastor who elevates himself above others.

Thanks for the attention to detail Sparrowhawke, you are definately on to the crux of what I'm saying. Based on what I have read in scripture, it seems as though the elders of a congregation had pastors/overseers appointed front their ranks and those overseers worked together to lead the congregation. Elevating some or one of the overseers above the others is not something we see the scriptures teach or support. So in a nutshell, pastors are good IF they fit the scriptural bill of what a shepherd/overseer/pastor is.

 

[Sparkey]

Based on what I have read in scripture, it seems as though the elders of a congregation had pastors/overseers appointed front their ranks and those overseers worked together to lead the congregation. Elevating some or one of the overseers above the others is not something we see the scriptures teach or support.

I do see that the church shown in the Bible is more of a community than a social group so there should not only be others who are like minded but in addition the church is a place designed for love to flow. I also like the words, 'shepherd/overseer/pastor' to describe the function but given that, not all Elders are called to be Pastors. Imagine a man who loves detail and enjoys administration. He could become involved in the business of the church and could also have a very intimate understanding of the members of the church from his point of view, and let's also say that this Elder also likes to make personal phone calls to various people that the Holy Spirit draws him to in the course of his duties, just to say, "How are you?" and "Do you have any thing you'd like to talk to me about?" and "May I pray with you?"

This elder would not agree to the title of Pastor because that's not what his focus is, meaning that he actually takes in-depth interest and continues in prayer long after the phone call ends. This brother has been elevated, is led by the holy spirit and actually functioned in the 'CEO/Pastor Corpuration/church' I spoke of earlier. His phone calls to me and his willingness to pray with others made a difference. So there, in the church that I count as the best example of corruption, right there, was a rose amongst thorns.

 

[ejected]

Sparrow hawk, you say that those 'on top' deserve more respect? What about when Paul said that those on the bottom we r to pour upon them more abundant honor?

Also the word office denotes upper rank. Check the Greek: function. Total different connotation.

Has anyone listened to the audio series 'The Great Ecclesiastcal Conspiracy' yet. This will shine a bright light on this Hiearchy issue and its pagan and Judaich roots.

 

[ejected]

How about this one? Paul said in 2Cor.1:24 'Not for that we have dominion over your faith.....'.
Dominion:Greek:kyrieuo: to lord over, be master of, have authority over, one who rules or exercises authority.
Can it get any clearer that the clergy/laity construct is is from the pit of hell?

 

[Sparkey]

Sparrow hawk, you say that those 'on top' deserve more respect?

Pardon but you'll need to show me where I said that before I can discuss it with you. I'd also like to request the Scripture verse for the "those on the bottom..." quote from Paul that you mention.

 

[ejected]

You said 'those on top are to be given greater esteem than thos that are being led.
I can't pull the quote over with my iPad.

 

[Eugene]

1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Tim 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

 

[Sparkey]

I can't pull the quote over with my iPad.

Post number would help me; I have tried to use the "Find" function but can only find your statement. What post, please? If you mean Post #282, that is not what I said. I can't even find the phrase "on top" except where you have used it.

Also, where is the "those on bottom" scripture reference you quoted?