It would be worthless for me to point out the clear scriptures I have noted also. But if God prods you toward a deeper study, as He has done with me, of what His desire is for all His children in the assembly, please study 1Cor.12 and type in 'where did the pastor come from'. A scripturally based in depth study of what I tried to show forth. God loves His people and wants so much more for them....so do I. We ar on a journey. let's clear the trail together.God bless you and yours my friend.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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It shall not be so among you.
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Proverbs14:12 there is a way that seems right unto a man but the end thereof is death. Different kinds of death. Spiritual death that Christians endure while being forced to pay a professional team to do all things 'ministry' while their spiritual functions lie dormant, dead on the vine. A classroom where no one ever graduates. Talk about destroying families.
True N.T. Leadership...a total different concept than what we ended up with for the last 1700 years....
Elders are manifest by their character and their maturity in the things of God. They do not flaunt them nor do thy wave a banner 'Look at ME!!' They are obscure servants that set an example. They support the poor, in fact their heart bleeds for the needy. They are not given to avarice nor do they desire filthy lucre.
They are given to teaching and guiding not controlling and demanding. They seek not a pedestal or pulpit or podium. They do not take, they give, as all the body parts are taught to do, esteeming others greater than themselves. They do not wish for a personal following but they instruct others to follow Christ.
They deplore recognition and applause. They abhor presents and gifts. They shudder at the thought of any allegiance to them personally. They tremble at the prospect of favoritism being lavished on them by the 'body'. Double honor is theirs for teaching well and their commitment to study but they would prefer to forgo that acknowledgment.
These are the marks of true servant-hood and eldership. These are the fruits of the truly qualified leader. They look not for the lime-light but seek the Lamb-light as their reward. Nothing on this dismal earth appeals to them. Nothing can tempt them or buy them. Slander is their food and reproach is their mainstay. Rejection by religionists is their meat and their daily diet. To be accepted by the glitter and pomp and success of modern Christendom is anathema to their spirit.
Their joy is to be girded about with a simple apron and on their knees tending to the weary and the castaways, the unlovely, the forsaken, the unwashed, all those who are forgotten at the 'church house' door, nay but rather are disdained at the 'church house' door.
They quake at the thought of being called Master, Pastor, Reverend or Apostle. They prefer to just be called brother, a tender to the needs of others.
They know they have an everlasting bounty waiting in heaven, a reward they feel not worthy to receive, but still the only reward they desire is to hear from the lips of the only true Master, Pastor, Reverend 'well done thou good and faithful servant'. Their daily rapture is to see the children of men set free from the curses this earth imparts to it's captives.
This is their very life. Others finding solace in the Saviour. Redemption in the Redeemer. To find their place and joy in Jesus.
To be hid in Him and the stench of their own ways and inclinations and religious dreams burned away as the chaff they are.
Are you looking for a leader? Look hard and long for it may take a while before you come upon him or her, who has discovered this secret path of service. In fact they may not even be where you would expect them for they are not welcome nor are they even given the time of day in most circles we call Christendom. They may not be comely. They may not have money, this latter being a prerequisite for acceptance in most 'churches' for ministry. They may not have anyone down here taking notice of their service, but heaven is watching with sheer delight this lonely worker. Hell is raging because of the same.
The 'church' needs them but they know not of this character, this simplicity of servant-hood. Congregants may hear of these attributes preached on a weekly basis yet not take and handle them experientially. I guess words are cheap as the saying goes. Hear it taught but see it not. How deceived can we be? How far have we fallen. How cheap have we made the gospel and the followers thereof? Then they ship this fruit world wide to make others 2 fold the devils they are.
I say to the hirelings 'Let my people go!' I say to the folks 'Quit financing this farce that we have so diluted.' I say further to the folks, 'pray that God would raise up these true leaders that are after His heart.' Few there will be that can fit this bill. Few there will be that will dare surrender to this point. God help us! devon and kathy
Elders are manifest by their character and their maturity in the things of God. They do not flaunt them nor do thy wave a banner 'Look at ME!!' They are obscure servants that set an example. They support the poor, in fact their heart bleeds for the needy. They are not given to avarice nor do they desire filthy lucre.
They are given to teaching and guiding not controlling and demanding. They seek not a pedestal or pulpit or podium. They do not take, they give, as all the body parts are taught to do, esteeming others greater than themselves. They do not wish for a personal following but they instruct others to follow Christ.
They deplore recognition and applause. They abhor presents and gifts. They shudder at the thought of any allegiance to them personally. They tremble at the prospect of favoritism being lavished on them by the 'body'. Double honor is theirs for teaching well and their commitment to study but they would prefer to forgo that acknowledgment.
These are the marks of true servant-hood and eldership. These are the fruits of the truly qualified leader. They look not for the lime-light but seek the Lamb-light as their reward. Nothing on this dismal earth appeals to them. Nothing can tempt them or buy them. Slander is their food and reproach is their mainstay. Rejection by religionists is their meat and their daily diet. To be accepted by the glitter and pomp and success of modern Christendom is anathema to their spirit.
Their joy is to be girded about with a simple apron and on their knees tending to the weary and the castaways, the unlovely, the forsaken, the unwashed, all those who are forgotten at the 'church house' door, nay but rather are disdained at the 'church house' door.
They quake at the thought of being called Master, Pastor, Reverend or Apostle. They prefer to just be called brother, a tender to the needs of others.
They know they have an everlasting bounty waiting in heaven, a reward they feel not worthy to receive, but still the only reward they desire is to hear from the lips of the only true Master, Pastor, Reverend 'well done thou good and faithful servant'. Their daily rapture is to see the children of men set free from the curses this earth imparts to it's captives.
This is their very life. Others finding solace in the Saviour. Redemption in the Redeemer. To find their place and joy in Jesus.
To be hid in Him and the stench of their own ways and inclinations and religious dreams burned away as the chaff they are.
Are you looking for a leader? Look hard and long for it may take a while before you come upon him or her, who has discovered this secret path of service. In fact they may not even be where you would expect them for they are not welcome nor are they even given the time of day in most circles we call Christendom. They may not be comely. They may not have money, this latter being a prerequisite for acceptance in most 'churches' for ministry. They may not have anyone down here taking notice of their service, but heaven is watching with sheer delight this lonely worker. Hell is raging because of the same.
The 'church' needs them but they know not of this character, this simplicity of servant-hood. Congregants may hear of these attributes preached on a weekly basis yet not take and handle them experientially. I guess words are cheap as the saying goes. Hear it taught but see it not. How deceived can we be? How far have we fallen. How cheap have we made the gospel and the followers thereof? Then they ship this fruit world wide to make others 2 fold the devils they are.
I say to the hirelings 'Let my people go!' I say to the folks 'Quit financing this farce that we have so diluted.' I say further to the folks, 'pray that God would raise up these true leaders that are after His heart.' Few there will be that can fit this bill. Few there will be that will dare surrender to this point. God help us! devon and kathy
Obadiah
Member
Reba, I've read this somewhere before too, just can't remember where. Maybe Withheld has posted it before or maybe it's just real similar to what I've read before. Of course, some of it is straight from scripture too!
Actually there are a lot of good words describing the characteristics of a person that would make a good elder in his post. Of course, not everyone with these characteristics is called to be an elder, and not every elder is a pastor, evangelist, or missionary either. Can you imagine if every church demanded this sort of perfection in selecting their elders? Yeah, there wouldn't be very many churches that could find even one. Once again, much more a problem with the whole of Christianity rather than just with the fact that pastors and other leaders get selected for certain positions within the church and are paid wages sometimes. But we have to work with what we can get, right?
Jesus is supposed to be our example, and where would we all be if He demanded the same impossible ideals and perfection as Withheld is demanding of elders and other church leaders. If Jesus had used this same "If it's not perfect we aren't going to do it" attitude we wouldn't have any Christians at all! Instead, these ideals are the goal to shoot for, but we all have to realize no one is perfect and this includes leadership within the Christian church. Look even at many of the patriarchs of the Bible such as Moses and David to name just two. They were far from perfect even in the little we know of their actual lives, yet God still used them in mighty ways that were written into scripture and we still hold them up as examples all these thousands of years later!
Of course, Withheld still hasn't acceptably addressed the scriptures that clearly say a pastor (or other church ministers and leaders) can and should be paid a wage in proportion to what they do. Maybe he's directing his rage against the small minority that we see on television, screaming and putting on a big show, constantly telling their viewers to send them money and is unable to comprehend any other type of professional Christian minister. After reading his posts, he certainly seems to be getting a reaction out of people and has the ability to do that. At least the reaction he got from me on this post was "Yeah, I want to be more like the person described here!"
Deborah13
Member
I can understand what you are saying. I could bring a pastor food but I would rather give him money to buy the food that he and his family will enjoy, thus giving him the freedom to choose.
In speaking of David and the ark that is fine. So we need to look at what is state in the NT, we are to care for each other. Your problem lies in the fact that the church expects the pastor to do things that they should be doing themselves. But you see life is very different now. When almost everyone were farmers and there was an emergency in the church, someone injured (whatever) a farmer could leave his field and go. Not today, people can't just tell their boss, I'm leaving to go to the hospital. This is one of things a pastor is called to do, be available to go.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
There lies the problem. The preacher is given too much responsibility and is expected to act in a capacity that elevates them into perceived 'super christian' status. All believers were called to do the things mentioned above. In Matthew 25:31-40 Jesus is quoted as saying to his faithful sheep: that they were faithful and would be rewarded because they all actively ministered.
The concept of a Sr. Pastor is foreign to the scriptures. The only folks that had any authority in the Church were of course Christ and His apostles. Preachers, pastors, deacons, etc. had no such authority. As far as paying the preacher goes, it seems to me that the modern concept goes waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond what the scriptures authorize. What we see in scripture is that preacher support was similar to the support we give missionaries today as opposed to the sometimes lavish incomes given to localized preachers. And by the way, where do we find localized preachers mentioned in the Bible anyway?
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Obadiah
Member
I think this is where the main sticking point is. But I don't think any of us who have supported paying the pastor have supported being forced or coerced to give them what would be considered "lavish incomes" by other folks living in the same society. I think we can all agree this isn't what scripture talks about. Unfortunately it seems some people refuse to admit that these people making their lavish incomes over and above what is normal for others in their specific societies are a very small minority of Christian leaders, even though they tend to be a very visible minority. It seems there is a serious "Throw out the baby with the bathwater" mentality among some people here. If we are to say we can't have or do something just because the specific thing isn't mentioned in the Bible as something to do or have, then we are on a very slippery slope to seriously extreme legalism and this is not what Jesus taught us to do!
As far as where certain specific job titles that have been asked about are mentioned in the Bible, such as "localized pastor", "senior pastor", "executive pastor" and such, I don't think anyone has claimed these very specific titles are mentioned in exactly these words. Certainly the word "pastor" is mentioned and this word is not exclusive to a missionary. There is nothing in scripture that prohibits a church that has multiple pastors from distinguishing certain areas of responsibility to specific pastors, such as assistant pastor, senior pastor, youth pastor, or whatever the need may be in that particular congregation. But these positions don't make these people "bosses" or give them "authority" over people. I would agree that making them into rulers and bosses isn't what should happen. However only one church I was ever part of had a pastor who considered himself a boss or authority figure, and God did not bless that, and today his congregation is gone. In every other church I've been part of the pastor was a spiritual leader and example, but had none of the "authority" that people here are talking about. Now, if particular people in the congregation choose to venerate a particular pastor or other spiritual leader because of his title, that is a problem in that person who venerates the pastor instead of God, not a problem in the title. Maybe even a problem with the particular leader if he has done things to encourage this, but this is still a problem with a particular person, not a problem with the position or title.
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Hello Edward God bless you man. Paul in Acts 20 told the leaders to work jobs. If a man is working a job as commanded, how could he find time to do all things ministry in the first place. Again I submit. If one would take the n.t. and turn it upside down and shake it as vigorously as possible for about 50 years, the concept of a single executive pastor will not fall out. He's not there. Do you not find it curious that the most important man in all of Christendom today is the executive paid pastor and yet he is not mentioned at least one time in all of scripture.
This high position above the brethren that so many slobber over, waiting for the right moment where they can quit their mundane job and ascend and hold that high holy place complete with financial benefits. The brass ring as it were.
Also to gain the prestige and adoration of the lowly congregants.
Also about those laborious long hours of drudgery and task fulfilling that we've been led to believe the poor overworked pastor must endure. Lies. All lies.
I have known plenty of men and women in my years that call themselves the exalted name pastor, who every time I saw them during the week, were either watching tv, fishing, or at the golf couse or simply gone again on their fifth vacation of the year.....usually off to Branson.
Here I go again folks. Why is 1cor.12 and 14 totally ignored by the 'church' and on this site.
Someone accused me of having an agenda. I guess I do. I confess. It's this. I want to do things Gods way, not by the traditions of men. Here's the reason. I want the body blessed and God glorified by restoring Christ's position in our midst back to Christ.
Now I find myself repeating myself over and over. The article I posted, 'True Leaders' came by the anointing in the middle of the night.Did not any of you feel a touch of the Holy Spirit when you Read it? Has it fallen on deaf ears?
Is your gathering fashioned after, imperfect as that may be, 1Cor.12 and 14? If it isn't, I submit that your assembly is not really a legitimate, scripture based, gathering of believers. Do we not want to please the Father and welcome Jesus back into His rightful place as Head of His body. One cannot serve 2 masters. Jesus or the 'pastor'. Which one will it be?
God would say it again to all the hirelings 'let my people go...so they can come and worship Me in Spirit and in Truth'.
Jesus told the woman at the well 'neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will men worship God, but they that would worship Him will worship Him in spirit and in Truth'.
Now I have digressed. Church buildings. Another subject for another day...if we have time.
This high position above the brethren that so many slobber over, waiting for the right moment where they can quit their mundane job and ascend and hold that high holy place complete with financial benefits. The brass ring as it were.
Also to gain the prestige and adoration of the lowly congregants.
Also about those laborious long hours of drudgery and task fulfilling that we've been led to believe the poor overworked pastor must endure. Lies. All lies.
I have known plenty of men and women in my years that call themselves the exalted name pastor, who every time I saw them during the week, were either watching tv, fishing, or at the golf couse or simply gone again on their fifth vacation of the year.....usually off to Branson.
Here I go again folks. Why is 1cor.12 and 14 totally ignored by the 'church' and on this site.
Someone accused me of having an agenda. I guess I do. I confess. It's this. I want to do things Gods way, not by the traditions of men. Here's the reason. I want the body blessed and God glorified by restoring Christ's position in our midst back to Christ.
Now I find myself repeating myself over and over. The article I posted, 'True Leaders' came by the anointing in the middle of the night.Did not any of you feel a touch of the Holy Spirit when you Read it? Has it fallen on deaf ears?
Is your gathering fashioned after, imperfect as that may be, 1Cor.12 and 14? If it isn't, I submit that your assembly is not really a legitimate, scripture based, gathering of believers. Do we not want to please the Father and welcome Jesus back into His rightful place as Head of His body. One cannot serve 2 masters. Jesus or the 'pastor'. Which one will it be?
God would say it again to all the hirelings 'let my people go...so they can come and worship Me in Spirit and in Truth'.
Jesus told the woman at the well 'neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will men worship God, but they that would worship Him will worship Him in spirit and in Truth'.
Now I have digressed. Church buildings. Another subject for another day...if we have time.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
The issue is not necessarily the title, but rather the duties that have been what many would say unscripturally assigned to those given these titles. The very concept of there being a local preacher who pastors a congregation and delivers a sermon weekly is not a scriptural construct. In the scriptures we are shown a plurality of elders/pastors that acted as examples and leaders within local "flocks".
God actually wanted the people to accept Him as their ruler with no one in between, but man then as now does not want God ruling over him. This is why God gave Judges, but that still didn't satisfy man...
1Sa 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
1Sa 8:8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
1Sa 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
1Sa 8:11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
1Sa 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
1Sa 8:20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
1Sa 8:21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
1Sa 8:22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.
And it continues to this day, "We want a President and Congress to rule over us."
Obadiah. Hello my friend. Read Matt. 23. Check out Strongs concordance. Jesus words in the Greek, say do not use honorific titles in front of your name. This produces arrogance by lifting the title bearer above God's people....do not lord it over His heritage. We picked this up from the Catholic Church way back when. They were into the deeds of the Nicolaitans, clerical/laity, which Jesus hates. Why would we want to continue in something that Jesus hates? I know that we were all born into all this stuff, but we need to search the scriptures, Hebrew and Greek, as the Bereans did to 'see if these things be so.' and begin to correct things. I'm sure you must agree.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Acts 20:33 '[You know that] I haven't longed for anyone's silver, gold, or clothing; 34 for, you know how I've used my own hands to take care of my needs… as well as [for the needs] of those who were with me. 35 I've demonstrated to you how necessary it is to work like this, so you can help those who are weak. So, remember the words that were said by the Lord Jesus: There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.'
I like the point you made Withheld. Paul traveled and endured hardships in his 'ministry'. He was able to receive support for his efforts from the brethren but his living was made from the sweat of his brow and the work of his own hands. The financial support of the church was only designed to assist Paul and the others who traveled and toiled as he did do what was needed of them.
2 Thessalonians 3:6-12 is also an indictment on the currently prevalent thinking of financing the lifestyle of localized preachers. If we look at the church as a cake, I'd say that pulpit preachers are an added topping that is not needed in the recipe of making a local congregation. The fact that paid preachers can even exist within a single congregation for years and decades shows us how little the congregation members are growing as compared to what the scriptures indicate they should.
Instead of a paid pulpit preacher, churches should have various members sharing messages as they all have an equal stake and responsibility towards one another in the Lord. They would do well to follow the scriptural example and have a pluralities of elders that they look to as excellent examples and for the leadership that life experience brings. The congregation should share in the duties of ministering to the needs of one another as opposed to hiring a 'pastor' to do the work of the church.
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Hello John8:32. I get it my friend. The people clamored 'give us a king. Give us a king.'
There r plenty of men today who long to hold that prize position over the sheep. All you gotta do is go down to the printers shop and have a card made 'Pastor Wonderful' or maybe 'Reverend Onthetake', rent a building and preach to the folks that they must honor you and pay tithes to you...because God said so.....somewhere. What a deal.
I'll not list all the perks that go with that sought out throne. A far cry from what Jesus told His disciples after James and John's mother sought after Him to grant to her 2 sons a couple of elevated positions above the others. The others were a little perturbed by that even though in their hearts they wanted the same devilish exaltation.
I know I'm stepping on a lot of toes. Holler ouch or holler amen. I love you all. I want the best for you...God's way!
Do you see what has happened? Satan, through men, have twisted the scriptures to their own and our destruction.
Jesus said 'they have made void and null the word of God by their traditions.' Incrementally, piece by piece, step by step, here a little, there a little, satan used men to twist His word. Traditions are very hard to lay aside...it takes guts. One has to swallow their pride. One has to be willing to lose all for the truth. Truth be told, many have a vested interest to keep the shams and falsehoods going. They would have to go out and get a real job....God forbid that ever happen...perish the thought.
Oh how I wanted to quit my job, go get the card, place Rev. in front of my awesome name, get the building, start preaching, start pulling the tithes, and simply bask in the ministry. God kept saying 'No. Stay on your job. I'll show you why later'. He did show me later...through much study of the word and of history and close fellowship with the Master through prayer.
It took me a long time to figure things out because I was like so many who don't dig in and search it all out. I just took for gospel what the exalted one said from behind his pulpit(where did the pulpit come from anyhow? Later.)
So I encourage you not to just take my weak attempts to persuade you of these things but do your own search. God bless all of you.
There r plenty of men today who long to hold that prize position over the sheep. All you gotta do is go down to the printers shop and have a card made 'Pastor Wonderful' or maybe 'Reverend Onthetake', rent a building and preach to the folks that they must honor you and pay tithes to you...because God said so.....somewhere. What a deal.
I'll not list all the perks that go with that sought out throne. A far cry from what Jesus told His disciples after James and John's mother sought after Him to grant to her 2 sons a couple of elevated positions above the others. The others were a little perturbed by that even though in their hearts they wanted the same devilish exaltation.
I know I'm stepping on a lot of toes. Holler ouch or holler amen. I love you all. I want the best for you...God's way!
Do you see what has happened? Satan, through men, have twisted the scriptures to their own and our destruction.
Jesus said 'they have made void and null the word of God by their traditions.' Incrementally, piece by piece, step by step, here a little, there a little, satan used men to twist His word. Traditions are very hard to lay aside...it takes guts. One has to swallow their pride. One has to be willing to lose all for the truth. Truth be told, many have a vested interest to keep the shams and falsehoods going. They would have to go out and get a real job....God forbid that ever happen...perish the thought.
Oh how I wanted to quit my job, go get the card, place Rev. in front of my awesome name, get the building, start preaching, start pulling the tithes, and simply bask in the ministry. God kept saying 'No. Stay on your job. I'll show you why later'. He did show me later...through much study of the word and of history and close fellowship with the Master through prayer.
It took me a long time to figure things out because I was like so many who don't dig in and search it all out. I just took for gospel what the exalted one said from behind his pulpit(where did the pulpit come from anyhow? Later.)
So I encourage you not to just take my weak attempts to persuade you of these things but do your own search. God bless all of you.
Obadiah
Member
I agree that most churches probably do assign duties to these people that aren't specifically mentioned in scripture and some of these duties might be wrong. But this is a local problem within local congregations, not a reason to say the entire job of a pastor or elder is unscriptural. Also, many pastors may choose to take on tasks that aren't specifically mentioned in the Bible for a pastor to do, but that doesn't make it wrong for the person who is a pastor to do these other things too. Just as one example off the top of my head, perhaps he organizes a "bus ministry" to pick up people and bring them to church. There is no bus ministry mentioned in scripture and certainly no command that a pastor has to do this. So should this be something a pastor shouldn't be allowed to do just because they didn't have buses back when scripture was being written? If a pastor speaks to his congregation to spiritually uplift and edify them on Sunday mornings, is this something he shouldn't be allowed to do just because scripture doesn't specifically command pastors to speak to congregations on Sunday mornings? No, I think a pastor is free to do whatever God leads him to do in order to bring about the spiritual growth of his congregation and to preach the gospel. What is needed in order to do this is naturally going to change throughout different times in history and different areas of the world. The Bible doesn't restrict him to only doing those things specifically mentioned in scripture.
Now, I agree there are problems in some churches where pastors are given too many duties and expectations so that those things take away from their time and ability to be spiritual leaders. This shouldn't be happening. Other people should be stepping in to do these things, or maybe they are things that really don't need to be done by a church at all. When (just for example, but something I've seen, so it's not just hypothetical) you have a church with a 100 member congregation, but the pastor is stuck mowing the lawn and doing the gardening because none of those 100 people will lift a finger to do these jobs, yeah, that's wrong. At least it's wrong when this task is taking him away from the tasks he should be doing as a pastor. But I just can't see how anyone can say it is uscriptural for a pastor to preach a sermon on a Sunday morning.
Obadiah
Member
Yes, I agree with this. But I'm not defending a person who goes around using his title as a prestige item. I'm just talking about a job or position title here. It's no different than janitor, secretary, or whatever. It's just a way for people who use spoken and written language to identify who does what in any organization or group. The title is not something to lord over people or to be arrogant about. If a pastor does that, once again, this is a people problem with that particular pastor, not a reason to condemn the entire profession as somehow being unscriptural. Actually, this is why all the pastors I've ever known personally won't use the title "reverend", because they say this is a title that says they are spiritually superior instead of just describing their position or job in the body of Christ.
High Deborah13. God bless you all to pieces. You started out with a false premise. You acknowledged the exalted position of 'pastor'. Scripture does not justify any such 'lords over the sheep'. News flash: Jesus is the only One who has a right to a high position over His own.
Missionaries and the widow and the poor are the only ones that have a scriptural right to full support.
Missionaries and the widow and the poor are the only ones that have a scriptural right to full support.