It shall not be so among you.

[ejected]

Wip, if I'm wrong tell me. Does your fellowship look anything at all to what Paul described. The after service dinners I have been to we're football talk, mild off color humor, job contract talk, and a whole lot of small talk. That's not the Spirit filled and directed fellowship that Paul brought forth.
Also they had no worship service as we know it today. The number one reason they came together was to edifying one another through their spiritual functions and gifts. Worship would be a definite by product as the anointing of the Spirit would be made manifest. Light years away from what we find in the modern assembly.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What are your services like?

Churchianity is the reason many thoughtful believers will echo this very question. The concept of there being a "church service" is perhaps what gives rise to the hierarchial religious system(s) we see all around us. Instead of being the church, the masses have become convinced on a deep subscious level that church is something they go to. Church is now a formal gathering where people come together to engage is religious rituals that vary depending on which brand of faith one subscribes to.

Think about it, why is the Saturday, Wednesday night, or Sunday gathering considered anymore of a "sacred" church assembly than a meeting at your home with 5 or 6 other believers where you guys fellowship, study, lean on one another, and pray together brother to brother and sister to sister? Think about how we "must" dress when we go to church in our "Sunday best" and all the other things that the "church service" mentality does to make folks more rigid, formal, and uncomfortable even in the brief weekly interactions christians have together.

 

[ejected]

Sunday services as we know it is not in the scriptures. We recognize leaders, as Paul did. They arose organically in the assemblies he established. But they are not in an upper, controlling class. As the n.t. teaches, they are to lead by example, watch for wolves, some elders may have the teaching function so they teach the younger. Other elder functions would be to care for the needs of the poor and widows, not rob them of 10 percent of their welfare check. You asked how we fellowship. Please read Paul's foundation for His people's coming together. That is what we are striving for. No building. In home. To His glory He always sends the anointing inspite of our frailties. Check out truthforfree site. Hope I didn't break a rule right there. God bless you folks.

 

[Deborah13]

Wow! I don't know where you've been attending services in your life but what you describe is not quite what I experience where I attend.

I'm glad you have a really good church, that is truly a blessing. I have attended two churches where the pastor did some good preaching. I'm not saying the church was bad. My church in CT many years ago was wonderful, we met twice a week for services and one night a week for Bible study, and study before Sunday service, I never miss but onc over a year. It was a very small congregation of about 50 and we were like family.

But I was not speaking of being unhappy with church in general. I was just saying that I haven't gotten much out of the preaching. The pastors were OK but I didn't learn much from them, except one. I live in a very rural area, population 700, we don't have much choice in churches. Actually, two. The pastor at the Baptist ran off everyone that built the church and the nice new parsonage. They had the congregation for 60 yrs, 2/3 left, he walked in a started pushing everyone around and that is not an exaggeration, even in the littlest of things, including a plaque they had had on the wall in foyer. It was a little wooden plaque with brass plates with the names of brothers and sisters who helped build the church, that had passed on. He told they could do that anymore. Then he replaced the piano player with his teenage daughter. I'm not going there, he has no respect.
That leaves the non denominational church that's so wishy washy, no thanks, I'll stay home and watch the couple of pastors on TV that I like and I learn something. and they are my storehouses.

 

[reba]

Deb that is why I treat this place like my church...

When humans don't get they need authority , speaking of Godly authority He set up. They tend to run amuck...

 

[CORE]

Imagine how much money is spent on church buildings and maintenance when we could easily meet in our home or on public land for free or at most a nominal fee.

Those who have worked hard to build churches have served their purpose...some of the most insightful preaches of 30-40 years have all their teachings/insight digitized and in printed format for all to utilize.

It's time to change the budget and become better stewards...

We are wasting too much money on comfort and playing church...not to mention all the wolves out there who take advantage of our generosity.

 

[ejected]

Hello Core. Christians need to start studying His word in order to recognize a wolf. Some lost soul in the media years ago said 'Christians are easy to be manipulated'. He was right.

 

[Obadiah]

Sunday services as we know it is not in the scriptures. We recognize leaders, as Paul did. They arose organically in the assemblies he established. But they are not in an upper, controlling class. As the n.t. teaches, they are to lead by example, watch for wolves, some elders may have the teaching function so they teach the younger. Other elder functions would be to care for the needs of the poor and widows, not rob them of 10 percent of their welfare check. You asked how we fellowship. Please read Paul's foundation for His people's coming together. That is what we are striving for. No building. In home. To His glory He always sends the anointing inspite of our frailties. Check out truthforfree site. Hope I didn't break a rule right there. God bless you folks.

So with all that said, and outside of what you are "striving for" it sounds like what you go to actually isn't a church as most people think of churches? When I try to boil down all of what you said it sounds then like you are a loose group of a few people who meet in someone's home and whoever feels led to do whatever they feel they should do just does it, then you go home? That's about all I could get from what you said that seemed like an answer to what you really do. The rest of what you said either didn't answer my questions or was to vague to really get a picture of how your church operates.

There were actually several "churches" sort of like what you describe in the neighborhood I lived in in the 70's. I went to a few of their meetings once in a while. But I must say, without any leadership, there was a lot of unscriptural things being done, more out of just plain ignorance and lack of qualified leadership than out of any desire to be wrong. But they tried. Some lasted a few years before they disappeared and others lasted maybe for a summer, and that was about it. That's why I asked several specific questions, most of which you didn't answer though. That's ok, I'll just go on guessing, it's none of my business I guess.

 

[Obadiah]

Those who have worked hard to build churches have served their purpose...some of the most insightful preaches of 30-40 years have all their teachings/insight digitized and in printed format for all to utilize.

Yes, and many people today use this as their excuse to forsake "the assembling of ourselves together" (Heb 10:25)

we could easily meet in our home or on public land for free or at most a nominal fee.

I've heard people say this before, but I have to wonder just whose home or on what "public land" would you suggest an inner city church of 2000 members meet? Or what facilities could be rented for a "nominal fee" on a regular and continuous basis that would be more economical than having their own building? Not everyone lives in the Nevada desert.

 

[ejected]

If a church leader lies.....

If a church leader lies and he knows he is lying in order to profit financially will he go to hell? 1Cor.6:9 extortioners will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Extortion: coercion, threatening.
The mob uses extortion by threatening others if they don' pay for protection.
Pastors use extortion by threatening the sheep with curses from Malachi if they don't cough up the tithe for God's protection. The mob only threatens. The pastor twists the scripture in order to threaten, dragging God into his deception.
I walked into one of those 'den of thieves' a while back and it was Sunday school time. The 'pastors' wife, whoa...I was gonna say teaching on tithes but if she did that it would expose the churches stand on it,....so...she was telling the folks that they were to tithe to the church. Moderator, I'm not debating tithing here, I'm debating lying here. Thanks.
So I gently, with all tact and diplomacy, asked her where in the n.t. is the command for the Christian to tithe. She immediately got nervous and pointed to the Corinthians and their donations to help the folks in Jerusalem during a time of drought. I refuted that application gently.....they were free will offerings.
So she quickly and nervously turned to her pastor husband who was in the class saying 'pastor, do you have something to say?'
He chimed in as he tuned to confront the rabble rouser...me, saying 'Jesus told the Pharisees that they should show mercy and leave not the other,tithing, undone'. I politely pointed out that when this transpired, the old covenant was still in force.
He nodded and conceded ' your right. It's not in the n.t. anywhere.'
Whoa!!! Did you get that? In front of the folks that he lorded over, he confessed that tithing was not a n.t. doctrine. I wonder what went through the minds of those poor dumb sheep. How many years or decades have they been sitting under this guys foot as he scourged them Sunday after Sunday with a lie in order to fleece the sheep, laughing all the way to the bank.
Then the sister went on a rant 'I don't care if it's not in the n.t., you had better pay your tithes or God is going to bring His curses on you'.
I tried gently to get back into the debate but I was not allowed. She simply raised her voice above mine, drowning my ' excuse me..uhh..may I..excuse me but...'. At this point I felt someone take my arm and escort me out of the building.
Then the wolf came to the door and asked me ' do you pay tithes?' I responded ' I paid them for 21 years'. He asked ' do you pay them now?' I said ' no'.
Then he said ' then you have no right to speak about it'.
I walked away. I didn't think to say it but what he was saying, in essence, was ' if you are not living in adultery then you can't speak on it'
Or closer to his home 'if you are not a wolf in sheep's clothing robbing the folks, then you can't speak on it'.
This old preacher had been lying to the folks for decades for financial gain, filthy lucre and he knew it. I forced him with the word of God to confess it. I got 'thrown out of the synagogue' for my trouble. Does that make him a covetous, extortionist, liar? If so, will he still make heaven?

 

[ejected]

Obadiah, are you on purpose not seeing the word on this? Now you are kicking at the very word of God you claim to uphold. You are saying because of some groups that failed to stay the course in there venture to do things the way God intended, that plenty of what Paul taught on the subject is a bunch of hooey. I cannot tell you a thing unless you are willing to do your own research. Your acting like a child. I thought better of you. Perhaps I mis judged you. Stay on your present course Obadiah and in a hundred years we'll both know for sure who was right and who was wrong. I'll not stand in your way. I'll keep writing for the benefit of those with a teachable spirit For those that feel that 'not all is well in Zion'. For those that long for a closer walk with the Master.

 

[CORE]

Those who have worked hard to build churches have served their purpose...some of the most insightful preaches of 30-40 years have all their teachings/insight digitized and in printed format for all to utilize.

Yes, and many people today use this as their excuse to forsake "the assembling of ourselves together" (Heb 10:25)

That is not what I was promoting and you know it...please do not selectively quote just to make an unrelated point.

we could easily meet in our home or on public land for free or at most a nominal fee.

I've heard people say this before, but I have to wonder just whose home or on what "public land" would you suggest an inner city church of 2000 members meet? Or what facilities could be rented for a "nominal fee" on a regular and continuous basis that would be more economical than having their own building? Not everyone lives in the Nevada desert.

I'm assuming that these 2000 people have homes of their own, perhaps?
...and there are plenty of public parks where people can congregate in either small or larger numbers if necessary.

I'm also sensitive to the fact that certain areas will still need larger permanent facilities, but not as many as we have today. I'm just suggesting that we become better stewards and use our resources a little more wisely.

 

[Obadiah]

You are saying because of some groups that failed to stay the course in there venture to do things the way God intended, that plenty of what Paul taught on the subject is a bunch of hooey.

Now you are simply making things up and lieing. I didn't say any of this. I asked how your church worked in an attempt to better understand what you are talking about and you only gave vague answers instead of being forthright. I mentioned some groups I had seen that I think may be like yours (although it's hard to tell because of your vague answers and refusal to answer other questions.) Had you answered my question of how long your church has been in existence, that would have been worthwhile in showing if what you are doing is working or if it's too early to tell. I don't care one bit what you are "striving for". We can all say we are "striving for" this or that from scripture. I asked what you actually do and how long you have been doing it. And I wanted to know how it is working out.

if you want to convince people that your way is right and their way is wrong, you need to learn to show us how your way works. Clearly you don't want to talk about that beyond just a few vague answers, and all you want to do is insult me and slander me and try to destroy other churches by claiming pretty much every single thing they do is unbiblical. Forget the fact that millions have come to know the Lord through churches. Forget the fact that millions of Christians have been edified by pastors and teachers who properly teach from knowledge and wisdom they have gained through years of education and experience that the average person can not achieve. No, lets just flush the entire church down the toilet because you have run across a few imperfect people who misused their positions. All you seem to want to do is destroy the churches that most of us attend and fellowship in. If your "church" is anything like the picture you have painted in my mind, I would want no part of it. Someone probably needs to delete this. I'm through now.

 

[Obadiah]

That is not what I was promoting and you know it

Of course you're not, but that's how a lot of people use those things. Anyway, doesn't matter to me anymore anyway.

 

[ejected]

Whoa. One thing at a time. You said you knew of a group that failed.

 

[ejected]

You said something about a group you knew in the 70's that fell apart after 2 years. Now what did I lie about. What did I make up? Thanks

 

[reba]

Thanks @Edward nicely said


2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[Deborah13]

1 Colossians KJV
17 And He is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I Corinthians 3 KJV
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

1 Corinthians 12 KJV
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Ephesians 4 KJV
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors (shepards) and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

(shephards) added by me from the GK definition in Strong's.
teahcers in 1 Corinth. and Eph. are the same GK word.

So I guess my question would not be, is there a place for pastors (shepards) in the Church. Obviously, God fully intended there to be.
So my question to others would be, what is the definition of a pastor (Shepard) and what is his job?
Is he also the teacher?

Christ is the HEAD of the body, this is quite clear as well.
I believe when Jesus has ordained a pastor one will see a blessed congregation. The Lord will lead in all his (pastor) decisions. He will lead with love and respect to the rest of the body. The body when they see these qualities will (should) respond in love and respect as to another member of the body and rejoice in their good blessings from God, in this good man who God ordained.

 

[ejected]

Edward, how are you my kind friend. Read those chapters again then tell us what verse or verses describes the executive pastor that is in charge giving directives or permission to the folks to minister. I submit that Jesus is the only true Head.
Elders maintained order and watched for error, but the folks were free to minister as the Spirit directed. Few on this site can hardly believe that the Holy Spirit is able to maintain order. Problems will arise, that's where the elders give guidance, other wise they stay off the soap box and out of the way...don't hog the show(read 3 John about Diotrephes who wanted to lead and control, lord it over.)We just cannot believe that if we tried to do things God's way, He would not be able to handle it.

 

[ejected]

Deborah, great scripture choices. Bishops, pastors, teachers, elders are all synonymous. These are the older, more mature and learned. They've been around the block a few times. Poi men: shepherd: pastors---plural, not singular. They cared for the needs of the flock of which they were a part of...they had the trained wisdom and knowledge.
They were not offices, noun, they were functions, verb.
Jesus does not ordain a 'pastor', singular, They grow up and into the shepherding functions organically, not by an organization and ordination services.
Pray for those with these spiritual gifts but don' elevate them to a higher sainthood level like that one church does.