Bible Study It's That Time of Year Beware

[hawkman]

Come now, this is pretty facile (and disingenuous). You said occult meant "hidden" and insinuated that costume-wearing at Hallowe'en was therefore occultic in an evil way. Jesus hid his true identity and purpose from all but his Twelve disciples, though he didn't have to wear a mask or costume to do so. Was he being "occultic," or hidden, in some bad way, too? No more than little kids hidden in costumes of princesses, or superheroes, at Hallowe'en.

Tell me what the "TRICK" is that is in "Trick or Treat " ?

 

[eddif]

There are "weaker brothers" and then there are legalists who are trying to bring others under the "yoke of bondage" (See Galatians). It's important to make a distinction between these two types, accommodating the former but strongly resisting the latter, as Paul did.

Somehow I have missed the circumcision and keeping the law of Moses, regarding Halloween. LOL

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
One thing I have noticed. Nobody is wishy-washy in their options. We all have one, ours, and we can defend it to the degree that we need to. And for the most part, we can do it while not hurting the other person's feelings, or getting into a name calling war. That is not always the case.

Now once you realize I am right about everything all the time, life will be . . . (just kidding)
Thank you for the good discussion that stays civil and decent for all involved.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Tenchi]

Tell me what the "TRICK" is that is in "Trick or Treat " ?

??? I don't know. I've heard ideas about it, but none I would say are concretely historical in their basis. Most commonly, I've been told that the "trick" is something entertaining one must do in order to receive some sweets. Generally, no one requires a "trick" from those coming to their door for treats anymore and so the cry of "Trick or treat" from children is just an empty thing they utter as they walk up to a house for some candy. Actually, in my area, the kids don't bother even to say this. They just walk around in costume, collecting candy without calling out anything.

In light of this, it's very...odd to assign some nefarious, evil meaning to the "Trick or treat!" cry. Mostly, it's a meaningless thing children say to alert homeowners that they are approaching their door for candy. Whatever darker meaning it may have had to others in the past, it carries this meaning no longer - at least, not for the average kid out for some free sugar. So, why fuss about it, then? I have no idea.

 

[Tenchi]

Somehow I have missed the circumcision and keeping the law of Moses, regarding Halloween. LOL

??? You had no difficulty applying the "weaker brother" principle to the modern question of Hallowe'en, though the original NT situation had to do with meat given to idols. Where's the pagan meat-offering in the circumstance of Christians decrying Hallowe'en? There is none, of course, but you've still managed to extract and apply the underlying spiritual principle in the case of 1 Corinthians 8 to the sensitivities of modern-day Christians toward Hallowe'en. Why, then, do you pretend to confusion in doing the same with Paul's letter to the believer's in Galatia who were plagued by legalists, refusing to extract and apply the principle of resisting legalism to the question today of whether or not Christians should participate in Hallowe'en?

 

[jasonc]

??? I don't know. I've heard ideas about it, but none I would say are concretely historical in their basis. Most commonly, I've been told that the "trick" is something entertaining one must do in order to receive some sweets. Generally, no one requires a "trick" from those coming to their door for treats anymore and so the cry of "Trick or treat" from children is just an empty thing they utter as they walk up to a house for some candy. Actually, in my area, the kids don't bother even to say this. They just walk around in costume, collecting candy without calling out anything.

In light of this, it's very...odd to assign some nefarious, evil meaning to the "Trick or treat!" cry. Mostly, it's a meaningless thing children say to alert homeowners that they are approaching their door for candy. Whatever darker meaning it may have had to others in the past, it carries this meaning no longer - at least, not for the average kid out for some free sugar. So, why fuss about it, then? I have no idea.

Agree and I have doled out candy and kids didn't say it

 

[Thekjv]

??? I don't know. I've heard ideas about it, but none I would say are concretely historical in their basis. Most commonly, I've been told that the "trick" is something entertaining one must do in order to receive some sweets. Generally, no one requires a "trick" from those coming to their door for treats anymore and so the cry of "Trick or treat" from children is just an empty thing they utter as they walk up to a house for some candy. Actually, in my area, the kids don't bother even to say this. They just walk around in costume, collecting candy without calling out anything.

In light of this, it's very...odd to assign some nefarious, evil meaning to the "Trick or treat!" cry. Mostly, it's a meaningless thing children say to alert homeowners that they are approaching their door for candy. Whatever darker meaning it may have had to others in the past, it carries this meaning no longer - at least, not for the average kid out for some free sugar. So, why fuss about it, then? I have no idea.

When I was a kid in the 60's a trick was done if the house did not give out candy.
Example one house went went to was the third house and the man had a bowl of candy when he answered the door and would get a piece out of the bowl and stick his hand inside our bag and fake the sound of candy hitting the bag with a flick of the finger inside the bag. He did not know we knew we had 2 pieces in our bag before we knocked on his door and looked and no one recieved candy from him as we looked in all ther bags; so we played a trick on him.Not sure where the idea came from but we moved a lot and each place we lived it was the same. a trick could be toilet paper tree in front yard or come back to the house and knock on the door and hide before they answered. Or let air out of one of his tires.

 

[Tenchi]

When I was a kid in the 60's a trick was done if the house did not give out candy.
Example one house went went to was the third house and the man had a bowl of candy when he answered the door and would get a piece out of the bowl and stick his hand inside our bag and fake the sound of candy hitting the bag with a flick of the finger inside the bag. He did not know we knew we had 2 pieces in our bag before we knocked on his door and looked and no one recieved candy from him as we looked in all ther bags; so we played a trick on him.Not sure where the idea came from but we moved a lot and each place we lived it was the same. a trick could be toilet paper tree in front yard or come back to the house and knock on the door and hide before they answered. Or let air out of one of his tires.

Yeah, this happened when I was a kid, too. Not often, thankfully. Eggs, usually.

 

[eddif]

Is candy a trick or treat? There is much discussion about metabolic sugar levels.
Also
Is Halloween a trick or treat.

The Circumcision party / judaizers wanted to place new gentile Christians under the law of Moses. The new born again Jews were being relieved of the ceremonial law of Moses, but the influence of the circumcision party caused Peter to quit fellowship with new Christian gentiles.
The Jerusalem council finally sent Paul to the gentiles (without the Law of Moses), while others went to the Jews.

One group is by faith, while the other is through faith.

It is all way beyond the scope of the OP.
(As far as some are concerned).

I can just shut up.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Colossians 2:16 kjv
16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Why would I post this scripture?

The law of Moses had rules for:
What were clean foods
What you could drink
Special days to be celebrated
Sabbath observance
How foods were prepared
etc.

This list was explained:
Jesus is our rest
Jesus is our foid
The new covenant is our drink

The real deeper meaning of the law is placed in our hearts and minds. Not the words written on stone.

Is the law totally gone? No.
Passing away? Yes. Jesus fulfilled the law.

Without the law there is no knowledge of sin.

Salvation comes by what Jesus accomplished.

Being a witness comes through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Thekjv]

Eph 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Gal 3:
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[eddif]

Eph 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Gal 3:
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The commandment contained in the ordinance is gone, but the spiritual reality of meaning is now made known.

It really does sound like double talk, but it can be understood.

eddif

 

[Thekjv]

The commandment contained in the ordinance is gone, but the spiritual reality of meaning is now made known.

It really does sound like double talk, but it can be understood.

eddif

I may not have it right. the way I understand it is the old law was fulfilled so the new covenant could be put into place.
the old law and the ten commandments are no longer followed. Now Jesus did answer several people about the commandments but in his answer he did not recite all 10. The ones he did recite we are to follow with out the law. they are an integral part of faith and living like God wants us to.

 

[eddif]

I may not have it right. the way I understand it is the old law was fulfilled so the new covenant could be put into place.
the old law and the ten commandments are no longer followed. Now Jesus did answer several people about the commandments but in his answer he did not recite all 10. The ones he did recite we are to follow with out the law. they are an integral part of faith and living like God wants us to.

1 Timothy 5:17 kjv
17. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Deuteronomy 25:4
Is about an ox. Under the old covenant the concept of giving a worker wages is hidden in the oxen ordinance / commandment. Even in the OT here is pay the worker. Did the people get this parable? Probably not.

As we study the Bible we finally learn that the OT hid wisdom. Hearing they hear not, and seeing they see not.

Does the statement in OT say pay the preacher? No. Does it imply pay the preacher? If you read Matthew 13 about parables you learn :
The seed is the Word of God
The ground is men’s hearts

Jesus was the sacrifice lamb in the Law of Moses. Much better but a shadow of a lamb became the Messiah.
So
When I read the law I look for the literal meaning, and I look for the more spiritual meanings too. Both exist without conflict.

If I have not said enough yet, ask questions.
1 Corinthians 9:9-10 May help

Being under the law has changed a lot. Wee have the law in our hearts of flesh now. We have the law in our new mind of Christ.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Thekjv]

1 Timothy 5:17 kjv
17. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Deuteronomy 25:4
Is about an ox. Under the old covenant the concept of giving a worker wages is hidden in the oxen ordinance / commandment. Even in the OT here is pay the worker. Did the people get this parable? Probably not.

As we study the Bible we finally learn that the OT hid wisdom. Hearing they hear not, and seeing they see not.

Does the statement in OT say pay the preacher? No. Does it imply pay the preacher? If you read Matthew 13 about parables you learn :
The seed is the Word of God
The ground is men’s hearts

Jesus was the sacrifice lamb in the Law of Moses. Much better but a shadow of a lamb became the Messiah.
So
When I read the law I look for the literal meaning, and I look for the more spiritual meanings too. Both exist without conflict.

If I have not said enough yet, ask questions.
1 Corinthians 9:9-10 May help

Being under the law has changed a lot. Wee have the law in our hearts of flesh now. We have the law in our new mind of Christ.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I agree there is wisdom in the OT we can use to be better. The Law is not not ours in the NC to follow. Jere 31:32
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

 

[eddif]

I agree there is wisdom in the OT we can use to be better. The Law is not not ours in the NC to follow. Jere 31:32
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

First off.
I am for us resolving differences between viewpoints. I have few problems having the law state new covenant concepts.

If there is wisdom in the OT law? I think it can be discussed (the knowledge and wisdom). It is not a hidden thing that we get nothing out off till the last trump. I do concede we get very little out of the law till the last trump.

There is a difference in seeing through a glass darkly and blindness. Just as there is a difference between seeing through a glass darkly and perfect vision.

We actually can come to understand what we can.

Post #54 scriptures say the NT and OT say the same thing. The only way to deny that statement (IMHO) is to use traditions instead of scripture. Is the law of Moses degraded? I would say yes. Is the law totally gone? I would say no.

We could face each other and say:
It is gone - vs - It is not gone totally

Or

We can discuss the issues.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Jesus came here to fulfill the Old Testament Law. This why the veil in the temple was torn in two immediately upon His death. So you have that part correct.

"I may not have it right. the way I understand it is the old law was fulfilled so the new covenant could be put into place.
the old law and the ten commandments are no longer followed." Quote from Thekjv

Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The ten commandments are still in place. A lie is still a lie. Forgiveness must still be sought. The Law must still be fulfilled. When we receive Jesus, He becomes our only means of fulfilling the Law.

1 John 2:1-3 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.

1. The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person the act of making propitious.

2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Romans 3; 1 John 2 .

As far as the commandments are concerned, Jesus gave us a different way of understanding them. He changed the point of view from the don'ts to the do's.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Law is fulfilled by love; our love of God, and by our love for our fellow humans. (The do's.) We are not perfect at doing this, and need Jesus as our propitiation. That's what gets the job done. I hope this helps you.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[for_his_glory]

Someone please tell me how you correlate the OT laws and circumcision with the OP that is about paganism.

 

[eddif]

Someone please tell me how you correlate the OT laws and circumcision with the OP that is about paganism.

The jump was made in post 40 IMHO

I spoke of a pagan having a weakness because of their background.

40 insists that legalism had to be adressed
Acts 15:5 is legalism.
Kjv 5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

My post was 38 where I suggested scripture be read.
About weaker people.

eddif