James: How dumb is this guy?

[stray bullet]

There was more than 1 James in the NT, I think it was 3.

Of course, but I wasn't talking about just James. You said Judas was the brother of Jesus according to Matthew 13:55. Yet we see that Judas according to the Gospel of John, is the son of Simon (and the brother of James).

These references to people as his brethern aren't biological, but spiritual.

 

[unred typo]

Maybe this will help:

Jhn 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

 

[Judy]

[quote="Lewis W":ec557]There was more than 1 James in the NT, I think it was 3.

Of course, but I wasn't talking about just James. You said Judas was the brother of Jesus according to Matthew 13:55. Yet we see that Judas according to the Gospel of John, is the son of Simon (and the brother of James).

These references to people as his brethern aren't biological, but spiritual.[/quote:ec557]

Is there only one Judas? or One James or one john??.... I have a son named John. However I know he is not the one mention in the bible. :-? Just look how many Mary's there are.

 

[Georges]

Point being...James who was so close to Jesus...that Jesus appoints him the head of the Chruch....Sorry, it's not Peter...it's not John...it's not Paul....It's James...

James never refered to Jesus as God...and to hint as J did about God and Christ being equal because they are mentioned in the same sentence is a stretch...

You are partially right and partially wrong. James was the head of the Church of Jerusalem.
The apostles established five Sees- Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome.

Not until after the destruction of the Temple....For the first 40 years..Jerusalem dictated Church policy...

The See of Rome wasn't established by Peter until much later and Jerusalem would have played a major role in the fist few decades of Christianity.

Actually, I believe historically, Paul is the one who established the Bishopry in Rome...

Next, James wasn't the brother of Jesus. Jesus had no siblings.

Ha....sorry...but, James was the brother of Jesus.

The Trinity is a term used to define what the bible describes- three distinct persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, which are made of one essense/substance.

No the Book doesn't teach that....and it's been discussed in other threads. I don't want to bog this down with a trinity discussion...

me in red...

 

[Georges]

[quote="Lewis W":6cc1d]

Next, James wasn't the brother of Jesus. Jesus had no siblings. The Trinity is a term used to define what the bible describes- three distinct persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, which are made of one essense/substance.

"""""""WHAT"""""""""He had no brothers and sisters ? Where did you get that garbage from ? And another thing, we are not going to have a long drawn out James bashing. I am telling you straight from the door.

What about it? Jesus had no brothers or sisters. At the crucifixtion he gave his mother over to John to take care of her because she had no other children to do so.

If he had siblings, this would have been a tremendous insult and really wouldn't make sense if he had Christian brothers and sisters.[/quote:6cc1d]

ya know....the disciple that Jesus loved was "James".......not John.....

 

[Georges]

The best and most detailed resource on James...is

James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls

by Robert H. Eisenman


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/014025 ... e&n=283155

It is very detailed....and cost friendly....I picked up a used book for $6.00.

just a suggestion....


Eisenman aslo has a book detailing the Christians and the Dead Sea Scrolls..

 

[Georges]

Georges
If you really understood Jewish culture as you claim you do, you would know that what James said by calling himself a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, James correctly puts God and the Lord Jesus on the same level as equals.

I study Jewish culture and Jewish historical culture so I can get a better understanding of the mindset of the people of the time...

James is claiming to be a bondservant to God...and also to Christ...Just like in a monarchy, a servant is loyal to the King, and also to the Prince. In no way does James suggest they are equals...


He honors the Son just as he honors the Father (John 5:23)..

That is true....both deserve honor...one worship, one homage.

If Jesus were not God he would have been quickly taken out and stoned to death.

If Jesus were God would he have let himself be crucified? Jesus wasn't stoned because it wasn't his time to die...God protected him.

Personally I don't believe he new Jesus was God until after the resurection.

J...his own brother didn't know he was God? come on....They grew up together. Jesus performed miracles infront of the masses...James didn't have an idea that Jesus was special until after he died?

You do believe in the resurection don't you?

Absolutely.

Oh, Never mind you can't because your still waiting for the messiah to come right?

No and Yes....He's come once as predicted...and will come again as predicted.

By The way how do explain Isa 53 ?

How do you want me to explain it?

The latest Liberal Jewish bibles leave out Isa 53, but you know this already right.

That is not true...there is "one" word I believe that is missing.....not the whole Chapter....besides...even if there were, there are enough older versions to use....

Georges
You who are jewish or claiming to be jewish. Explain this to me.

A lie....I am not a Jew...currently I am a God Fearer...considering very seriously (after looking into it) proselyting to Judaism (recognizing Jesus as Messiah as the early Nazarene Jews did).

Infact anybody explain this to me.

In Mark 2:5-12
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.â€Â

This is easily done....Jesus (the Word, Memra) is Jehovah's representative (according to the Jewish law of Agency) and as Jehovah's Memra, he has Jehovah's authority to forgive sins in Jehovah's stead...Learn the concept of the Memra....www.jewishencyclopedia.com.

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?â€Â

Again, as the Memra of God, Jesus was given the authority of God at his baptism to act as his Agent on earth...Jesus was consistant in performing his role as the Memra....Just because some men had an evil spirit that kept them from recognizing Jesus as the Memra, doesn't mean every one did.

8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sinsâ€Ââ€â€He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.†12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!â€Â

Again, this is one of the facets of the Memra as shown in the article in http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com titled "Memra". Read it, Learn it, live it....The New King James Version. 1982 (Mk 2:5-12). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

We could forgive sins commited against us, but we can't forgive sins commited against others. Only God can forgive the sins of others right?

Correct...or those to whom God gives authority can forgive sins....

So if Jesus forgave others for their sins what does that make him?

The Memra....God's representative on earth according to the Jewish law of Agency...

A lunitic or God. Please explain this to me.

Hope the above does explain it to you well enough....if not....go for yourself and read "carefully":

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... arch=memra

and...

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... rch=agency

you'll have to read it....it can't do that for you...

Expalin these verses to me also
Matt 14:33
33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.â€Â

J...These men were of Asian culture...look at the strong's definition for worship....

proskuneo {pros-koo-neh'-o}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 6:758,948 from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

1) to the Jewish high priests

2) to God

3) to Christ

4) to heavenly beings

5) to demons

As I've always said....Worship God...Honor Christ....

Matt 28:17
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

Refer to the above definition...

Those two verses are out of the very Jewish book of Matt. Do you think matt would have put them in there if Jesus were not God.

Refer to the above definition....

Now lets look at John
John 9:38
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!†And he worshiped Him.

Refer to the above definition...

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Again....read the website articles I posted above...as well as this one on the heavenly preexistence of the Messiah...in Jewish understanding. Jesus' words are a Jewish understanding/concept. He wasn't introducing anything unknown.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=Messiah


If Jesus were not God, why would he allow himself to be worshiped?

He didn't in the sense that one would worship Jehovah...he did allow himself to be honored....

If Jesus was not God, why would he deserve the same honor as God?

Because the Prince is to be honored as royalty....and Jehovah is the King.

I have many many more but for now this will suffice.

Bring it on J...but I suggest you read carefully the articles I pasted....
Jg

J....I highly suggest that you read the 3 links that I provided very carefully...it may clear up some of the confusion...

 

[stray bullet]

[quote="Lewis W":ea4df]

Next, James wasn't the brother of Jesus. Jesus had no siblings. The Trinity is a term used to define what the bible describes- three distinct persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, which are made of one essense/substance.

"""""""WHAT"""""""""He had no brothers and sisters ? Where did you get that garbage from ? And another thing, we are not going to have a long drawn out James bashing. I am telling you straight from the door.

What about it? Jesus had no brothers or sisters. At the crucifixtion he gave his mother over to John to take care of her because she had no other children to do so.

If he had siblings, this would have been a tremendous insult and really wouldn't make sense if he had Christian brothers and sisters.

ya know....the disciple that Jesus loved was "James".......not John.....[/quote:ea4df]

No, it was John. Read the end of the Gospel according to John, it was the disciple whom Jesus loved that testifies the Gospel. Otherwise it'd be called the Gospel of James.

 

[stray bullet]

Not until after the destruction of the Temple....For the first 40 years..Jerusalem dictated Church policy...

The See of Rome wasn't established for decades until Peter went there much later in his life and was martyred. Jerusalem was the central hub for Christianity in the beginning, no doubt. And James was the leader too.

Actually, I believe historically, Paul is the one who established the Bishopry in Rome...

There is no historical record of Paul establishing a successor in Rome. In fact, Ignatius is recorded as being appointed as the Bishop of Alexandria by Peter and then Linus (also mentioned in the bible) as the successor of Peter in Rome.
The truth is- Peter AND Paul went to Rome.

 

[Georges]

Not until after the destruction of the Temple....For the first 40 years..Jerusalem dictated Church policy...

The See of Rome wasn't established for decades until Peter went there much later in his life and was martyred. Jerusalem was the central hub for Christianity in the beginning, no doubt. And James was the leader too.

Actually, I believe historically, Paul is the one who established the Bishopry in Rome...

There is no historical record of Paul establishing a successor in Rome. In fact, Ignatius is recorded as being appointed as the Bishop of Alexandria by Peter and then Linus (also mentioned in the bible) as the successor of Peter in Rome.
The truth is- Peter AND Paul went to Rome.

I'll look more into it but I thought that Paul appointed Linus....

 

[Georges]

J...Just for you, I did the leg work. I took the liberty of breaking down the http://www.jewishencyclopedia article on "The Memra"....From the article, I made a list of the attributes of the Memra....read the list and substitute Jesus (The Angel of the Lord) in place of Memra...you will get the gist of John 1:1 + from a Hebrew perspective...

To the article.....read the list and see how many descriptives apply to Jesus.

"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.

In the Targum (an Aramaic paraphrasing of the Hebrew, Aramaic was the language of the common man), the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

1. "The Memra," instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27).

2. The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35).

3. "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.).

4. Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there").

5. "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22).

6. Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18).

7. "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.).

8. Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12).

9. Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4).

10. His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]).

11. The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12).

12. The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.).

13. It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35).

14. Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34).

15. Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14).

16. It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11).

17. Through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25).

18. With the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27).

19. In the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

20. "The Memra brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7).

21. The Memra shielded Noah from the flood (Targ. Yer. to Gen. vii. 16) and brought about the dispersion of the seventy nations (l.c. xi. 8) and of Israel (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xii. 23, 29).

22. The Memra works all the wonders in Egypt (l.c. xiii. 8, xiv. 25); hardens the heart of Pharaoh (l.c. xiii. 15); goes before Israel in the wilderness (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xx. 1); blesses Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxiii. 8); battles for the people (Targ. Josh. iii. 7, x. 14, xxiii. 3).

23. As in ruling over the destiny of man the Memra is the agent of God (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxvii. 16), so also is it in the creation of the earth (Isa. xlv. 12) and in the execution of justice (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxxiii. 4).

24. So, in the future, shall the Memra be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

25. "My Memra shall be unto you like a good plowman who takes off the yoke from the shoulder of the oxen"; "the Memra will roar to gather the exiled" (Targ. Hos. xi. 5, 10).

26. The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41).

27. "In the Memra the redemption will be found" (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).


I also have a list of all of the passages that use "Memra" in the Targum paraphrase of the OT....if you like...it does help in idenfiying as the Rabbi's interpreted.

Sorry about straying form the OP, but the Memra is a very important concept to grasp...

 

[stray bullet]

Not until after the destruction of the Temple....For the first 40 years..Jerusalem dictated Church policy...

The See of Rome wasn't established for decades until Peter went there much later in his life and was martyred. Jerusalem was the central hub for Christianity in the beginning, no doubt. And James was the leader too.

Actually, I believe historically, Paul is the one who established the Bishopry in Rome...

There is no historical record of Paul establishing a successor in Rome. In fact, Ignatius is recorded as being appointed as the Bishop of Alexandria by Peter and then Linus (also mentioned in the bible) as the successor of Peter in Rome.
The truth is- Peter AND Paul went to Rome.

I'll look more into it but I thought that Paul appointed Linus....

Ancienty Christianity taught that Peter and Paul went to Rome, where Peter set up Linus as his successor as the Bishop of Rome (about 67 AD). This is the opinion of Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics and most protestant denominations (outside of weird or extreme ones).

 

[jgredline]

J...Just for you, I did the leg work. I took the liberty of breaking down the http://www.jewishencyclopedia article on "The Memra"....From the article, I made a list of the attributes of the Memra....read the list and substitute Jesus (The Angel of the Lord) in place of Memra...you will get the gist of John 1:1 + from a Hebrew perspective...

To the article.....read the list and see how many descriptives apply to Jesus.

"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.

In the Targum (an Aramaic paraphrasing of the Hebrew, Aramaic was the language of the common man), the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

1. "The Memra," instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27).

2. The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35).

3. "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.).

4. Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there").

5. "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22).

6. Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18).

7. "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.).

8. Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12).

9. Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4).

10. His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]).

11. The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12).

12. The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.).

13. It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35).

14. Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34).

15. Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14).

16. It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11).

17. Through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25).

18. With the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27).

19. In the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

20. "The Memra brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7).

21. The Memra shielded Noah from the flood (Targ. Yer. to Gen. vii. 16) and brought about the dispersion of the seventy nations (l.c. xi. 8) and of Israel (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xii. 23, 29).

22. The Memra works all the wonders in Egypt (l.c. xiii. 8, xiv. 25); hardens the heart of Pharaoh (l.c. xiii. 15); goes before Israel in the wilderness (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xx. 1); blesses Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxiii. 8); battles for the people (Targ. Josh. iii. 7, x. 14, xxiii. 3).

23. As in ruling over the destiny of man the Memra is the agent of God (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxvii. 16), so also is it in the creation of the earth (Isa. xlv. 12) and in the execution of justice (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxxiii. 4).

24. So, in the future, shall the Memra be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

25. "My Memra shall be unto you like a good plowman who takes off the yoke from the shoulder of the oxen"; "the Memra will roar to gather the exiled" (Targ. Hos. xi. 5, 10).

26. The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41).

27. "In the Memra the redemption will be found" (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).


I also have a list of all of the passages that use "Memra" in the Targum paraphrase of the OT....if you like...it does help in idenfiying as the Rabbi's interpreted.

Sorry about straying form the OP, but the Memra is a very important concept to grasp...

George
I will humor you. Send me a link that works.
By the way, the PDF you sent is full of mistakes. I am correcting it and will send it back to you soon. It's alot of reading , but its been good because it has strengthened my faith.

By the way. Here is the literal greek. Jesus is God. Get used to it.
John 1:1-5
1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
2 ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον
3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν
4 εν αυτω ζωη ην και η ζωη ην το φως των ανθρωπων
5 και το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει και η σκοτια αυτο ου κατελαβεν



Let me know if you would like me to interpret it for you. its been a while but no problem.

Thanks Jg

 

[Solo]

The Bible Churchhttp://www.bibleword.org/http://www.bibleword.org/

Study Page

The Memra

All scripture is from the King James Version unless otherwise noted. Before beginning this study, I suggest you pray and ask God to guide you through this study. I also suggest that you do you own study of this material in order to ensure its accuracy.
Copyright Notice


The word, memra,

, is Strongs 565, 'imrah, or 'emrah (em'-raw), or memra (mem'-raw). It means commandment, speech, or word. (some editions of Strong's leave out the Aramaic spelling, memra). It is the equivalent of logos (λογος), Strong's 3056, in the Greek.

It is clear from the Scriptures that no human can see God face to face and survive. Here are some examples:

Genesis 32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Exodus 33:20 "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

Judges 6:22-23 "And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. {23} And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die."

(Alas is an expression usually uttered at death or impending death)

Isaiah 6:5 "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

But there are many places in the Bible where men did see the LORD and live. For example, Jacob wrestled with God and did not die. The LORD appeared to Abraham at the trees of Mamre. There He made a covenant with Abraham. It was also there that Abraham pleaded with the LORD for Lot who resided in Sodom. Abraham did not die.

Appearances of God to men are called Theophanies. There are many Theophanies in the Bible. The Lord appeared face to face to Adam, Eve, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Gideon, Manoah and his wife, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and others. Sometimes it is an appearance of the LORD Almighty on His throne in glorified form (such as in Isaiah and Ezekiel) and other times He appears as the Angel of the LORD and yet other times He appears as a man. But He did appear to many men and women in the Bible.

Theophanies were a problem for the Israelis (which are Jews in this context--the return from captivity). They did not want to make God to seem human. The Sopherim were the scribes who set the text of the Hebrew Bible in order after the return from Babylonian captivity. Because of their exceptional reverence for the inexpressible Name of Yehovah they substituted the name Adonai (LORD) in the place of Yehovah. (That is why the King James Version uses the word LORD in the place of most uses of the name Yehovah (more commonly, Jehovah). That is also why many Jews will write the words LORD and God thus: L__D and G_d.) This same reverence for the NAME of God can be seen as reverence of His PERSON as well.

Since the Jews did not like Theophanies, they also substituted a word for God when He appeared to men. In the Targums, which are the Aramic versions of the Old Testament, the word memra is used in every instance of an appearance of God to men or God speaking to a man. This use of the memra rationalized every appearance of God to man.

Now memra is the Aramaic for "word", which, in the Greek, is Logos. You will find it in Strong's Concordance. It is Strong's number 565: 'imrah im-raw' or memrah {em-raw'}; feminine of 561, and meaning the sameâ€â€commandment, speech, word. (Note: some editions of Strong's do not use the word, memrah for the Aramaic equivalent; instead they use emrah, leaving off the first "m").

In those cases mentioned above, the memra, or Word, shared the nature of God and at the same time was a messenger from God. Hence the phrase, the Angel of the LORD, because an angel is a messenger of God. The Angel of the LORD is a theophany or a manifestation of God to man, that is, God coming face to face with man. A good example is the Garden of Eden:

Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden."

The Targums read more or less: "And they heard the Word or memra of God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Word or memra of God amongst the trees of the garden."

The concept of the memra is derived from Psalm 33:6: "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." The personified Word is also mentioned in some other places:

Psalm 147:15 "He sendeth forth his commandment upon earth: his word runneth very swiftly."

Isaiah 55:10-11 "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: {11} So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

In the passage from the Psalms, the Word is shown as running like a man. And in Isaiah the Word goes out and accomplishes the will of God.

According to the Jews for Jesus site, the Targums are filled with the Word of God, but the Talmud is silent on the issue. That is because the Talmud was written after the advent of Christ and the rabbis suppressed it in reaction to Christianity.

Let me quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

• "In the ancient Church liturgy, adopted from the Synagogue, it is especially interesting to notice how often the term Logos, (this is the Greek word for the memra) in the sense of 'the Word by which God made the world, or made His Law or Himself known to man,' was changed into 'Christ.' Possibly on account of the Christian dogma, rabbinic theology, outside of the Targum literature, made little use of the term 'Memra.'"

• 
  The Jewish Encyclopedia, New York and London, 1904, p. 465.

And from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

• " In Palestinian Rabbinism the Word (Memra) is very often mentioned, at least in the Targums: it is the Memra of Jahveh which lives, speaks, and acts, but, if one endeavour to determine precisely the meaning of the expression, it appears very often to be only a paraphrase substituted by the Targumist for the name of Jahveh. The Memra resembles the Logos of Philo as little as the workings of the rabbinical mind in Palestine resembled the speculations of Alexandria: the rabbis are chiefiy concerned about ritual and observances; from religious scruples they dare not attribute to Jahveh actions such as the Sacred Books attribute to Him; it is enough for them to veil the Divine Majesty under an abstract paraphrase, the Word, the Glory, the Abode, and others. Philo's problem was of the philosophic order; God and man are infinitely distant from each other, and it is necessary to establish between them relations of action and of prayer; the Logos is here the intermediary."

• 
  The Catholic Encyclopedia
  Copyright © 1907-1914 by Robert Appleton Company
  Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight.

We can see that the Divine Logos was a concept fully accepted by the Jews at the time of Christ. When John wrote his Gospel, he was fully aware of the use of the word memra as an appearance of God to men. It was common usage during his day. When he penned these words, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," and "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:1 and 14), he was using the exact theme as the Sopherim did when they revised the text in the time of Ezra. In fact, if he wrote in Aramaic, he actually used the word, memra. By doing so he was portraying Christ as sharing the nature of God (that is being God) and also as a messenger from God (This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him-Matthew 17:5).

Jewish theologians of John's era have ascribed six attributes to the memra. John assigned every attribute to Jesus in the first chapter of his gospel. The attributes are:

1. The memra is individual and yet the same as God (John 1:1-"and the Word was with God, and the Word was God").
   [/*:m:d5551]
2. The memra was the instrument of creation (John 1:3-"All things were made by Him" and John 1:10-"the world was made by him).
   [/*:m:d5551]
3. The memra was the instrument of salvation (John 1:12-"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name").
   [/*:m:d5551]
4. The memra was the visible presence of God or Theophany (John 1:14-"And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us").
   [/*:m:d5551]
5. The memra was the covenant maker (John 1:17-"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ").
   [/*:m:d5551]
6. The memra was the revealer of God (John 1:18-"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him").[/*:m:d5551]

John 1:1-18 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {2} The same was in the beginning with God. {3} All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. {4} In him was life; and the life was the light of men. {5} And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. {6} There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. {7} The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. {8} He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. {9} That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. {10} He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. {11} He came unto his own, and his own received him not. {12} But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {13} Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. {14} And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. {15} John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. {16} And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. {17} For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. {18} No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

These attributes are proof positive that John was following the Jewish model and he was showing that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

One other point. Philo of Alexandra (AKA Philo Judaeus) was a Jewish philosopher of the early first century. He is known as the Greatest Jewish Philosopher. He was also a Greek philosopher. Philo tried to explain the Theophanies as the Word of God to the Greeks. When he did so, he used the Aramaic word memra. Modern Jewish apologists will try to tell you that because Philo used the concept, the Divine Word of God was appropriated from the pagan religions of the Hellenistic world at the time. They want to belittle Christianity as a man made religion derived from paganism. When you hear this argument, it is a false argument. Just remind the person trying to tell you this that the Word of God was a Jewish concept and not a pagan concept. Tell him about this study.

Bibliography.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Copyright © 1907-1914 by Robert Appleton Company
Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight.

Correspondence About The Trinity, by Karol Joseph, © 2001, Jews For Jesus, Inc.

The Jewish Encyclopedia, © 1904, New York and London

John, the Pharisees, and Memra, © 2000, Carl J. Stevens,

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, © 1990, Thomas Nelson Publishers

Copyright © 2001, The Bible Church. All Rights Reserved. Contents may be distributed but not sold.
The content of this site is optimized for fast loading. Few graphics are included.
The Bible Church has the right to present its ideas and opinions in this format. We have not made any covenant with the Federal Government, such as a nonprofit agreement or tax exemption under Section 501(c)(3), and according to the First Amendment of the Constitution we have the right to free speech, including political speech, and freedom of religion.
The content of this study (with the exception of any scripture or quote) is the sole production of Pastor Mark Oaks and is subject to change as the pastor grows and learns.

Retrieved from http://www.bibleword.org/memra.htm#C

 

[Georges]

J...Just for you, I did the leg work. I took the liberty of breaking down the http://www.jewishencyclopedia article on "The Memra"....From the article, I made a list of the attributes of the Memra....read the list and substitute Jesus (The Angel of the Lord) in place of Memra...you will get the gist of John 1:1 + from a Hebrew perspective...

To the article.....read the list and see how many descriptives apply to Jesus.

"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.

In the Targum (an Aramaic paraphrasing of the Hebrew, Aramaic was the language of the common man), the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

1. "The Memra," instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27).

2. The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35).

3. "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.).

4. Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there").

5. "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22).

6. Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18).

7. "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.).

8. Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12).

9. Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4).

10. His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]).

11. The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12).

12. The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.).

13. It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35).

14. Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34).

15. Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14).

16. It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11).

17. Through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25).

18. With the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27).

19. In the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

20. "The Memra brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7).

21. The Memra shielded Noah from the flood (Targ. Yer. to Gen. vii. 16) and brought about the dispersion of the seventy nations (l.c. xi. 8) and of Israel (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xii. 23, 29).

22. The Memra works all the wonders in Egypt (l.c. xiii. 8, xiv. 25); hardens the heart of Pharaoh (l.c. xiii. 15); goes before Israel in the wilderness (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xx. 1); blesses Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxiii. 8); battles for the people (Targ. Josh. iii. 7, x. 14, xxiii. 3).

23. As in ruling over the destiny of man the Memra is the agent of God (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxvii. 16), so also is it in the creation of the earth (Isa. xlv. 12) and in the execution of justice (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxxiii. 4).

24. So, in the future, shall the Memra be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

25. "My Memra shall be unto you like a good plowman who takes off the yoke from the shoulder of the oxen"; "the Memra will roar to gather the exiled" (Targ. Hos. xi. 5, 10).

26. The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41).

27. "In the Memra the redemption will be found" (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).


I also have a list of all of the passages that use "Memra" in the Targum paraphrase of the OT....if you like...it does help in idenfiying as the Rabbi's interpreted.

Sorry about straying form the OP, but the Memra is a very important concept to grasp...

George
I will humor you. Send me a link that works.

Please don't humor me, do it for your own education. It makes no difference to me whether you read it or not....It won't be my loss believe me. What link is it that you are referring to? I had provided the links in the post above. Which tells me that you probably are reading them (the posts)....

By the way, the PDF you sent is full of mistakes.

Not so...As I had told you, I tried to respond to your pm's but lost the data due to the time involved (the site kicks you out if you don't "submit" in a timely manner). But, from what I read from your pm's...I rebuted with important (but lost) points correcting your logic...As I didn't have the heart to re-create the rebuttal, I will do so now if you resend them to me...I don't have your responses anymore...this goes in line with my pm to you that you are misunderstanding the chapters as you are reading them...but I didn't elaborate...I will do so, if you send them again.

I am correcting it and will send it back to you soon. It's alot of reading , but its been good because it has strengthened my faith.

I told you it would...and as I stated in the pm's, I hope you will go back and read it a little more carefully this time as you had either misread, or misinterpreted some very important issues...however, I do understand that you hadn't read the chapters unbiasedly. It is a bigger challenge the author faces when the reader isn't neutral. Wouldn't you agree with that? Be honest, if you weren't "extremely" prejudiced, you would have to admit the author makes valid points with each chapter..

By the way. Here is the literal greek. Jesus is God. Get used to it.
John 1:1-5
1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
2 ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον
3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν
4 εν αυτω ζωη ην και η ζωη ην το φως των ανθρωπων
5 και το φως εν τη σκοτια φαινει και η σκοτια αυτο ου κατελαβεν

Surely you are joking?......John was a Hebrew writting Hebrew concepts to both the Gentile and Hebrew world. Because it is written in Greek doesn't change that fact. John was not Greek writting Greek concepts to Gentile Christians....John was writting Hebrew Principles in Greek (common language) so that both Jews and Gentiles would comprehend the Hebrew concept of the Memra. The Greek word Logos is the only word (concept) in the Greek language that comes close to describing the Hebrew concept of the Memra....BTW, was John an Apostle to the Gentiles?


Let me know if you would like me to interpret it for you. its been a while but no problem.

No....thanks....I don't need to regress in that area.. ..Instead, you can tell me what the concept of Logos is and why in it's classical definition, it is used here. Then since John is Hebrew, you can compare the (classical) Greek definition with his/John's own native understanding of the Hebrew parallel to the (classical) Greek definition of Logos.

Thanks Jg

No, thank you....

J...... :D

 

[Georges]

Solo...no problem with the article up until this point...this is where they err..IMHO.

Jewish theologians of John's era have ascribed six attributes to the memra. John assigned every attribute to Jesus in the first chapter of his gospel.

The attributes are:

1. The memra is individual and yet the same as God (John 1:1-"and the Word was with God, and the Word was God").
   
   Here the author isn't quite correct because of his interpretation of "God". And, of course this would be the term Elohim...and the difference between the Hebrew and Greek definiton of Elohim. The author is correct in claiming the Memra as an individual (come in the flesh).
   [/*:m:8a635]
2. The memra was the instrument of creation (John 1:3-"All things were made by Him" and John 1:10-"the world was made by him).
   
   Correct....
   [/*:m:8a635]
3. The memra was the instrument of salvation (John 1:12-"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name").
   
   Correct...
   [/*:m:8a635]
4. The memra was the visible presence of God or Theophany (John 1:14-"And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us").
   
   Is God's agent when dealing with man....
   [/*:m:8a635]
5. The memra was the covenant maker (John 1:17-"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ").
   
   I believe the Memra dialogued with Moses and is Christ....
   [/*:m:8a635]
6. The memra was the revealer of God (John 1:18-"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him").
   
   I agree with that....
   [/*:m:8a635]

John 1:1-18 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {2} The same was in the beginning with God. {3} All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. {4} In him was life; and the life was the light of men. {5} And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. {6} There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. {7} The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. {8} He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. {9} That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. {10} He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. {11} He came unto his own, and his own received him not. {12} But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {13} Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. {14} And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. {15} John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. {16} And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. {17} For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. {18} No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

These attributes are proof positive that John was following the Jewish model and he was showing that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

Agree absolutely.....

One other point. Philo of Alexandra (AKA Philo Judaeus) was a Jewish philosopher of the early first century. He is known as the Greatest Jewish Philosopher. He was also a Greek philosopher. Philo tried to explain the Theophanies as the Word of God to the Greeks. When he did so, he used the Aramaic word memra.

Modern Jewish apologists will try to tell you that because Philo used the concept, the Divine Word of God was appropriated from the pagan religions of the Hellenistic world at the time.

I don't know that to be true....but will take the author's word on it...it still doesn't change the meaning of the term Memra...in the Jewish concept. What I can see modern Jews having a problem with is using that term to support the Trinity....the trinity is modeled after pagan "mystery" religions. It all comes down to the misinterpretation of Elohim...

They want to belittle Christianity as a man made religion derived from paganism. ( It cannot be argued with a straight face that Catholoprotestantism hasn't adopted pagan nuances....obviously, Pauline Christianity is a blend of Judaism with the influence of Gnosticism, Stocism, and Mystery Religion)When you hear this argument, it is a false argument. Just remind the person trying to tell you this that the Word of God was a Jewish concept and not a pagan concept. Tell him about this study.

I Understand that, but the trouble is, Philo didn't write the Targums and although he was highly regarded to call him the greatest is subject to the individual doing the research....having said that, these concepts are not exclusively Philo's....Philo did use both philosophy's (Greek and Hebrew) to convey the concept.

[/size]
Bibliography.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Copyright © 1907-1914 by Robert Appleton Company
Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight.

Correspondence About The Trinity, by Karol Joseph, © 2001, Jews For Jesus, Inc.

The Jewish Encyclopedia, © 1904, New York and London

John, the Pharisees, and Memra, © 2000, Carl J. Stevens,

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, © 1990, Thomas Nelson Publishers

Copyright © 2001, The Bible Church. All Rights Reserved. Contents may be distributed but not sold.
The content of this site is optimized for fast loading. Few graphics are included.
The Bible Church has the right to present its ideas and opinions in this format. We have not made any covenant with the Federal Government, such as a nonprofit agreement or tax exemption under Section 501(c)(3), and according to the First Amendment of the Constitution we have the right to free speech, including political speech, and freedom of religion.
The content of this study (with the exception of any scripture or quote) is the sole production of Pastor Mark Oaks and is subject to change as the pastor grows and learns.
Retrieved from http://www.bibleword.org/memra.htm#C

Solo, glad to have seen you do the research.....now the only hurdle is Elohim....and it's proper definition and application.

I admire the last statement of you document...gotta admire a guy who makes that kind of statement...

 

[Georges]

http://www.christianbeliefs.org/article ... &rome.html[/url]

http://hope-of-israel.org/petrome.htm[/quote:c7ce6]

Actually, I agree with this....I believe myself that Peter was sent to minister to the Jews in Babylon...that is where the greatest number of Israelites still resided...

 

[Solo]

Georges scholarship is lacking due to a belief system biased on private interpretation of the person of Jesus Christ, as opposed to the interpretation of the Holy Spirit. Hopefully one day he will be born of God so that the Holy Spirit can put salve on his eyes to see the truth of the gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ.

False Teachers are rampant today, and those that adhere to the doctrine that Jesus is not God fail to accept that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. Those that do not accept this truth are led by the spirit of antichrist, according to the Word of God.

A disagreement with the truth that Jesus is God goes directly against the statement of faith of this forum. Georges can continue to believe the false doctrines of devils if he chooses, but he will not be permitted to teach false doctrines on this forum.

 

[Georges]

Georges scholarship is lacking due to a belief system biased on private interpretation of the person of Jesus Christ, as opposed to the interpretation of the Holy Spirit.

Uh....private interpretation....I thought I made my points overtly....it's free for all men....nothing I keep to myself....Solo...it ain't easy bringing difficult, unorthodox points into the lions den (or should I say snake pit)....I better know what I'm writing about. Ever consider the Holy Spirit may have led me to the conclusions I've reached? or, do you hold the exclusive rights to Jehovah's Holy Spirit.

Hopefully one day he will be born of God so that the Holy Spirit can put salve on his eyes to see the truth of the gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ.

It's already happened....care for some salve...I've got extra...I just don't subscribe to the Gospel of Solo.

False Teachers are rampant today, and those that adhere to the doctrine that Jesus is not God fail to accept that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. Those that do not accept this truth are led by the spirit of antichrist, according to the Word of God.

I accept Jesus as God as Thomas declared....it is the interpretation of God (Elohim) that is the question.

A disagreement with the truth that Jesus is God goes directly against the statement of faith of this forum.

I never said Jesus wasn't God....just your interpretation of God (Elohim) is what I disagree with...

Georges can continue to believe the false doctrines of devils if he chooses, but he will not be permitted to teach false doctrines on this forum.

I choose not to believe the false doctrines of devils....what in the world do you think I've been doing for the past month...preaching against the false doctrines...

Solo.....Can I take it I'm not getting a Christmas card from you this year?

I still luv ya anyway....PS...are you ever going to post anything of substance, or are you going to continue to be the forum hit man....You know "historically" Paul was a hitman for the High Priest....Yep, he persecuted the Nazarene believers.....I see a pattern.... :-D

 

[Georges]

Back to the OP?