Jehovah's Witnesses and other Cults

[Vic C.]

Thanks Josie for try to keep the peace. :D

From this point on, all personal attacks against another member will cease. Point our the errors [you] feel another member may be committing, but please do not do it in some high and mighty fashion.

There is ample Scripture to refute their doctrine. The problem I have is with the NWT is the way the Hebrew and Greek were translated. A comparison of the NWT with a good translation like the various KJ's, NASB, etc. is a good place to start.

I don't disagree with everything they teach but it seems many of their key doctrines are heretical.

 

[Soma-Sight]

videocrafter,

Do you believe ALL members of the JW faith will roast and toast?

If not why not?

If so why so?

It seems you promote salvation via profession to a certain faith group?

 

[bibleberean]

Soma,

Do you believe ALL members of the JW faith will be saved or just a few?

If not why not?

If so why so?

It seems you promote salvation via profession to a just about any type of faith that exists.

 

[videocrafter]

videocrafter,

Do you believe ALL members of the JW faith will roast and toast?

If not why not?

If so why so?

It seems you promote salvation via profession to a certain faith group?

That question is like asking me "Do you still beat your wife†If I answer yes, then I'm accused of being a wife beater. If I answer no, I'm still accused of being a wife beater. The fact is, I don't even have a wife, so the question is irrelevant.

I do believe all members of the human race, which do not trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and confess that “Jesus is Lord†will in fact "roast and toast" (as you put it). John 3:18 (NIV) says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Furthermore, Romans 10:9-10 (NIV) states: “That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.†Let me ask you, do “ALL†Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these things as the truth? For all those that do not, then I believe they will “roast and toastâ€Â.

I also believe we are saved by grace through faith alone and not by works. Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV) says “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do†You tell me! Do ALL JW believe that, or do they ALL believe that “works†is part of the equation? If YOU tell me “by works†or “grace plus works†then I believe all will “roast and toastâ€Â.

And finaly, you asked if I promote salvation via profession to a certain faith group.... well you got me there I must admit I do, it's the Christian faith.

 

[bibleberean]

Good answer Video Crafter...

 

[antitox]

Yeah, so then why would you feel the need to ignore him? or ask which god he served? He never denied any of those things.

Skillet, I wanted to answer this because I have seen so much of it. Having spoken with JW's and Mormons a good deal there is a practice they use that generates the very argument in your statement.

It is true that they do not deny basic Christian stated beliefs. That's how they sound Christian. BUT they contradict those beliefs with those that they have changed or added. For example, Jesus being Michael the Archangel. This reduces Jesus to the status of an angel. Heb 1 states, "To what angel did God ever say, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?"

Half-truths are satan's domain. Appearing as though right and good yet containing a little bit of poison is exactly what these cults are about. That is the tripping mechanism to get Christians off course. This is why pseudo-Christians cults like JW's and Mormons are so dangerous. A friend of mine told me many years ago when I asked him how people accept the blatant lies in these cults, and he said, "they feed you slowly, a little at a time." You know, the ol frog in the boiling pot, until it's all accepted hook,line, and sinker.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I'm somewhat sitting the fence here; however, there ARE scriptures that DO appear to equate Michael the archangel with Jesus Christ. Since some of you are so condemning of others for this 'false belief', I'm assuming that you ARE aware as to what those scriptures are ...?

Whatever else may be problematic about those other 'cult' denominations mentioned, they COULD be forgiven for having taken on this particular belief anyway. Please ...would some of the more militant Christians on this thread be gentle with me?

 

[antitox]

I'm somewhat sitting the fence here; however, there ARE scriptures that DO appear to equate Michael the archangel with Jesus Christ. Since some of you are so condemning of others for this 'false belief', I'm assuming that you ARE aware as to what those scriptures are ...?

Whatever else may be problematic about those other 'cult' denominations mentioned, they COULD be forgiven for having taken on this particular belief anyway. Please ...would some of the more militant Christians on this thread be gentle with me?

Ok, show me what you got. I know of no scriptures in the bible that support such beliefs.

 

[videocrafter]

I'm somewhat sitting the fence here; however, there ARE scriptures that DO appear to equate Michael the archangel with Jesus Christ.

What church/religious organization to you attend Sputnik, are you Jehovah's Witnesses? If so, which scripture are you going to attempt to lead the sheep astray with this time? Daniel 10-12; 1 Thessalonians, 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Corinthians 15:44-50 ? At least tell us what translation you are using.

Tell me, are you going to present your false teaching in that order or are you going to shuffle them up a bit? Or maybe you're just wanting to know what verses we are ready to argue so that you can choose more wisely which untruths you want to deceive with?

 

[Vic C.]

I'm somewhat sitting the fence here; however, there ARE scriptures that DO appear to equate Michael the archangel with Jesus Christ. Since some of you are so condemning of others for this 'false belief', I'm assuming that you ARE aware as to what those scriptures are ...?

Whatever else may be problematic about those other 'cult' denominations mentioned, they COULD be forgiven for having taken on this particular belief anyway. Please ...would some of the more militant Christians on this thread be gentle with me?

The floor is yours, but be aware that there is as much Scripture (I'm being conserative here, there is much more) that proves that Jesus is much more that "just" an angel. Though He was a "messenger", He is also "Son of God", "Son of Man", Messiah, Christ, Savior and a whole host of name that are way above a "created" angel".

BTW, that is also a belief of the SDA, which I believe you are affiliated, correct? Either way, this is a doctrine I do not aggree with; but if you care to get the discussion going, you can do it here, start another thread or bump up one of the may threads we have on this already.

I ask one thing... ATTACK the issue, not the person.

 

[Soma-Sight]

I also believe we are saved by grace through faith alone and not by works.

Really?

How do you reconcile THIS?

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:also believe, and tremble.

20wiilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[Soma-Sight]

Therefore without Christ, you will spend an eternanity in hell after death.

28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

 

[Soma-Sight]

The watchtower.....

A good site to learn about JW's....

http://www.watchtower.org/

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Rule 8 - No Promotion of Other Religions:
You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than mainstream Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Debates of these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This is a Christian Forums as the name suggest. If you cannot abide with this, please do not use our site.

The watchtower is not a Christian organization and is not to be promoted within this board.

 

[Soma-Sight]

The watchtower is not a Christian organization and is not to be promoted within this board.

LD, if we are to "save" the false sheep of the JW, dont we need to know what their basic beliefs are?

This is not a promotion! Just a look at the false doctrines present!

 

[Vic C.]

I will allow the link by Soma. I will even add to it. This is relatively new to their site. http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm It is their New World Translation. Compare verses in it to any good interpretation. Heck, compare it to the NIV! :-D

For Starters...

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (KJV)

52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. (NIV)

52and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose,
53and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many (YLT)

52 And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
53 And coming forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and were revealed to many. (LITV)

2 And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, 53 (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people. (NWT) :o

Why do they add the word memorial and why is there a portion of the verse in ( )?

 

[videocrafter]

Videocrafter said: "I also believe we are saved by grace through faith alone and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)"

Really? How do you reconcile THIS? (James 2:14-20)

Before moving on, let me make a couple points concerning Ephesians 2:8-10. It’s only after the powerful gift of faith (which we need to accept the gift of salvation) does Christ free us to do good works. Salvation must come before good works.

Additionally, allow me to quote some footnotes from the Life Application Bible (LAB) concerning Ephesians 2:8-10. “When someone gives you a gift, do you say ‘That’s very nice, how much do I owe you?’ No, the appropriate response to a gift is ‘Thank you’ Yet how often, Christians, even after they have been given the gift of salvation, feel obligated to try to work their way to God…We become Christians through God’s unmerited grace, not as the result of any effort, ability, intelligent choice, or act of service on our part. However out of gratitude for this free gift, we will seek to help and serve others with kindness, love, and gentleness, and not merely to please ourselves. While no action or work we do can help us obtain salvation, God’s intention is that our salvation will result in acts of service. We are not saved merely for our own benefit but to serve Christ and build up the church.â€Â

Now to move on to your question; First let me ask that in the future, if you expect me to answer your questions relating to scripture, I kindly ask that you provide the scripture reference and translation you are quoting from. Furthermore, I will expect a little intellect rather then you simply pasting scripture into the forum. Anyone can cut and paste, but providing a little insight is required if you expect me to do the same.

For the benefit of others, you were referring to James 2:14-20 . The NIV translation puts it this way: “What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15. Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17. In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 8. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?â€Â

I really don’t understand why you stopped with verse 20, which starts a new paragraph. In any case, you asked how I would “reconcile†this passage. Let me make it clear, I don’t need to “reconcile†God’s word. To reconcile means: “to settle or resolve†God Himself has settled it whether we want to believe it or not, so there is no resolution required. In any case, I’ll be glad to share with you what I think this passage is saying, however my answer may will include thoughts on James 2:21-24 so I trust you will read that also.

We cannot earn our salvation by good works, however our good deeds show that our commitment to God is real. Romans 3:28 NIV says: “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.†This seems to contradict James 2:18 however Paul and James are saying the same thing. Although it is true that works can never earn salvation, true faith will always result in a changed life therefore good works will result. Paul argues against those who teach salvation is by works versus by faith, and James refutes those who confuse mere intellectual assent with true faith, after all even demons know who Jesus is, but they don’t obey him (James 2:19). Genuine faith involves total commitment.

James 2:21-24 credits Abraham to be righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar (Gen 22:9) Paul said he was justified because he believed God (Rom 4:1-5).

To quote the LAB James 2:21-24 “We are not justified by what we do in any way. True faith always results in deeds, but the deeds do not justify us. Faith brings us salvation; active obedience demonstrates that our faith is genuine.

 

[videocrafter]

Compare verses in it to any good interpretation. Heck, compare it to the NIV! :-D

Okay, that was funny. :

 

[antitox]

I thought I may have brought this up before, but I will do so again.

Years back when I was dealing with JW's a friend was helping me with some basic issues about JW heresies, and so forth. A column footnote in the JW bible references a verse in gospel of John 1. Where it states in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was "a" god. The column reference to this says "Grieber Bible." We obtained a copy of this book. Yohann Grieber's wife was a medium/clairvoyant. From my memory, I believe she saw the writing appear on the wall that was supposed to be how this translation got written.
We went to a JW's apartment and showed him this, he didn't know how to respond to it, he started to shake, tried to make excuses for it, got upset, and made us leave.

When dealing with any counterfeit, if you dig deep enough, it will always trace back to the same old arch enemy.

 

[videocrafter]

When dealing with any counterfeit, if you dig deep enough, it will always trace back to the same old arch enemy.

There's a lot of truth in that statement. It reminds me of a comment our pastor shared once on the subject of cults. I don't remember it word for word, so I won't try to quote it, but he asked: Have you ever wondered why no one has ever tried to counterfeit a $7.00 bill? Well, the answer is obvious. The point is, we can spend way too much time trying to learn everything about the cults, when in reality we must simply study God's Word throughly so we will know when someone is trying to present a false teaching.