Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Jehovah's Witnesses and other Cults

Personally, I would have a hard time labelling the JWs as a 'cult' by the definition of a cult. Charles Taze Russell is no more a charismatic leader of the JWs anymore than Charles Wesley is of the Methodists or John Calvin of the Puritans.

Most people unfortunately label religious groups as 'cults' simply because some of their beliefs don't agree with the mainstream.

Most cults are 'here and gone'

Charles Manson ran a cult
Jim Jones ran a cult
The Process Church was a cult
David Koresh and the Branch Davidians of Waco were a cult
The Heaven's Gate crew were a cult

I don't care how much you dislike JWs, you cannot even compare them to the above groups and by its simple definition, you cannot call them a cult. The most you can call them is a religious denomination with some heretical teachings.

That is all.

I also find it funny how some people will classify the SDAs as a cult by some of its teachings and yet ALL of them have or are being taught by some mainstream churches and have been followed for millenia in some form or another.



It just goes to show that some people define a cult as "something that doesn't agree with my views.
 
Yeah, the JW's are a cult...

everyone has a different definition.

Jehovah Witness's will follow their church even though their church teaches a false gospel and has made thousands of false prophecies.

It doesn't matter to me what others think... JW's are in a cult...
 
guibox said:
Personally, I would have a hard time labelling the JWs as a 'cult' by the definition of a cult. Charles Taze Russell is no more a charismatic leader of the JWs anymore than Charles Wesley is of the Methodists or John Calvin of the Puritans....
How's this definition? Do they fit this? I say they do. 8-)

To avoid careless labeling which could be harmful to a group and its adherents, it is important to know just exactly what a cult is, and how it is defined. A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers. Although most people think of cults as being religious, they can also be found in political, athletic, philosophical, racial or psychotherapeutic arenas.

The mind control, or brainwashing, exerted by cults often take the form of at least several of the following elements:

A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members - Many cults tend to dictate exactly what its followers should read, eat, how and with whom they should spend their time, and even what they should do in off hours. This totalitarian control is necessary for the leaders to indoctrinate the followers in everything they do, and is also an attempt to separate them from anything not associated with the cult. This is why cults often live together in groups.

A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority - Cult members are taught not to question the teachings, practices, or ideas of the leader. Many cult leaders truly are charismatic people, and are able to influence people to believe them. It is common that a cult member is not told everything up front when joining the group, but that they are taught increasingly controlling ideas and teachings as they go. In the case of some of the more well-publicized cults that have come and gone, it is also common that the leader's ideas and demands evolve over time, becoming increasingly controlling and restrictive. One very clear identifying element dealing with the leader of a cult is that the leader will always focus the attention and veneration of the members upon himself or herself. At the heart of a cult usually lies a very self-centered and self-seeking person.

A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group. This is another form of mind control-instilling guilt in the members if they hold anything back within the group. The members are taught that outsiders wouldn't understand or that they would only make fun of the ideas and practices and requirements for living within the group. Only specially-commissioned members are appointed to recruit members from outside. New members are usually encouraged to keep silent or even lie, especially to their families and close friends.
http://la.essortment.com/whatisdefiniti_rjli.htm
 
Vic said:
A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members - Many cults tend to dictate exactly what its followers should read, eat, how and with whom they should spend their time, and even what they should do in off hours. This totalitarian control is necessary for the leaders to indoctrinate the followers in everything they do, and is also an attempt to separate them from anything not associated with the cult. This is why cults often live together in groups.

Though many JWs are strict in this regard, I think all faiths do this to some extent and I don't think the JWs do it the extreme that this criteria calls for for being classified as a cult.

If I am a come from a conservative Southern Baptist organization and I go out and party and dance all the time, I'm sure the local church will have a sit down with me. If they see pornography on my desk while they are there, I can garantee they will have something to say about that.

If some mainstream christians go into their churches preaching Sabbatarianism, and annihilationis, I can guarantee that the 'saints' and the board will have something to say about controlling what you do and don't do and what you should believe or don't believe.

I don't think JWs are different in this regard, just as wrong as many others are

Vic said:
A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority - Cult members are taught not to question the teachings, practices, or ideas of the leader. Many cult leaders truly are charismatic people, and are able to influence people to believe them. It is common that a cult member is not told everything up front when joining the group, but that they are taught increasingly controlling ideas and teachings as they go. In the case of some of the more well-publicized cults that have come and gone, it is also common that the leader's ideas and demands evolve over time, becoming increasingly controlling and restrictive. One very clear identifying element dealing with the leader of a cult is that the leader will always focus the attention and veneration of the members upon himself or herself. At the heart of a cult usually lies a very self-centered and self-seeking person..

Again, I think that they are having a David Koresh and a Charlie Manson figure in mind here, not a starter of a denomination. To me, Russell is no more a cult figure or 'charismatic' leader then Charles Wesley, William Miller, John Calvin, Martin Luther or James and Ellen White.

Misguided? Perhaps. Charismatic cult leader??

Hardly

Vic said:
A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group. This is another form of mind control-instilling guilt in the members if they hold anything back within the group. The members are taught that outsiders wouldn't understand or that they would only make fun of the ideas and practices and requirements for living within the group. Only specially-commissioned members are appointed to recruit members from outside. New members are usually encouraged to keep silent or even lie, especially to their families and close friends.

Sure this could apply to JWs, but I think it could apply to many if not most of mainstream Christian churches. You'd be surprised how many leaders back peddle and white wash the truth of the Sabbath and conditional immortality of man and annhilation when caught with no explanation for clear teaching. So many church members are fed nonsense by their pastors and criticized for any who question it.

Ostracism, disfellowship and labelling are the way that most churches deal with those who question their cherished beliefs. Why are JWs singled out for their one tracked thinking?

Again, there is no convincing evidence (unless you really want to use the 'cult' paint brush very liberally) that shows that the JWs are a 'cult' when the nature of the definition is used to explain Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charlie Manson and Heaven's Gate.

There's no comparison.

Sorry.
 
And if they say that Jesus is NOT God, would they then be considered a cult by your definition?

How about that there is not such a thing as hell?

or only 144,000 get to live in the presence of God, while the rest of the JWs get to live on earth in a paradise utopia?

How about if you break away from the JW Kingdom Hall bunch, you are then ostracized?

The Kingdom Hall JWs is a cult, nothing more and nothing less.

"Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Charles Taze Russell, Brooklyn, NY: Satan is the originator of the idea of the Trinity. The Father is the supreme God whose real name is Jehovah. Jesus is a created being known originally as Michael the Archangel; he is “a god,†not Jehovah. Jesus only rose spiritually, not bodily, from the dead. The Holy Spirit is the impersonal active force of God. Only the anointed class (or little flock) numbering 144,000 will go to heaven, while faithful “other sheep†will live eternally on a paradise earth; the lost will cease to exist (annihilationism). Publishes the Watchtower and Awake! magazines, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (their own version of the Bible), as well as numerous books. Originally called International Bible Students, followers today are called Jehovah’s Witnesses. Research material available. Profile available." From http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#Watchtower
 
Solo said:
And if they say that Jesus is NOT God, would they then be considered a cult by your definition?

If that is your only definition of what a cult is, then yes, they would be...however so would a few members on this forum as well. However, I don't recall that being a criteria laid out by Vic.

Anti trinitarianism is not a cult criteria as is not Arianism, Pelagism or Pantheism. They are beliefs, not cultic doctrines.

Solo said:
How about that there is not such a thing as hell?

You're kidding, right?

Again, here is the mindset of 'You are a cult if you don't believe what I believe!'

What would you say if I told you that there is ample enough evidence denying the current, traditional interpretation of 'hell' straight from the scriptures? You realize that that would make great scholars such as Froom, Cullman, Stott, Pinnock and a host of others as 'cultists' even though they belong to mainstream Christian denominations?

That would make many other theologians from all faiths 'cultists' as they are studing the scriptures and coming to the same conclusions as JWs and SDAs in the study of 'hell'.

What do these theologians know? they are just deceived by cults. :roll:

Solo said:
or only 144,000 get to live in the presence of God, while the rest of the JWs get to live on earth in a paradise utopia?

First, that doesn't make one a cult, second, it doesn't sound any more far out then many pre-millenialists who believe in a secret rapture, some demonic figure gathering Jews and standing in the temple in Jerusalem or the 'law being reinstated for everyone' at the last days.

There are so many FAR OUT views on the Apocalypse that you would have to categorize most evangelical faiths as 'cults' if you defined it as such.


Solo said:
How about if you break away from the JW Kingdom Hall bunch, you are then ostracized

That is unfortunate, but that occurs in all faiths at some level. I still don't think that makes JWs a cult...just an unfortunate lot who don't understand Christian charity.

Solo said:
The Kingdom Hall JWs is a cult, nothing more and nothing less.

And wanting to wish it so with no reliable evidence or extremely weak evidence based on personal bias and elitist thinking doesn't make it so.
 
Your definition of a cult is narrow and devoid of any large group having the capability of brainwashing masses of people. The Russell bunch is called a cult by many of former members. Their tales are quite interesting. Of course, you have an opinion as do the rest of us. I believe that the Roman Catholic mess is also a cult. But I know you would disagree.

I would agree with you, however, by your definition, the JWs and the RCC are not cultic. By my definition they are.

I wonder which of us is right. Perhaps you. But I know one thing, they are going to hell if they have not been born of the Spirit, and they can rub elbows with Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc.
 
If that is your only definition of what a cult is, then yes, they would be...however so would a few members on this forum as well. However, I don't recall that being a criteria laid out by Vic
My criteria was incomplete. I will find my notes and post the complete list of what I believe points out the characteristics of a Christian cult. I emphasize Christian because I don't want anyone to get them confused with the occult.
 
I found it. This is a Sociological Perspective on what constitutes a cult. I think we can agree that when defining a Christian cult, we can include many of these traits. Actually, as Christians, we should be a bit more cautious.

Truncated... full text here: http://www.dtl.org/cults/treatise/jws-cult-1.htm

"The nine points are:
1. Authoritarian
2. Oppositional
3. Exclusivistic
4. Legalistic
5. Subjective
6. Persecution-Conscious
7. Sanction-Oriented
8. Esoteric
9. Antisacerdotal (Enroth, pp. 17-25).

1. Authoritarian

Enroth comments:
A crucial dimension of all cultic organizations is authoritarian leadership. There is always a central, charismatic (in the personality sense) leader, who commands total loyalty and allegiance . . . . The leader exercises authority over both doctrine and practice, and his/her interpretations of the "truth" are accepted by members without question (Enroth, pp. 17, 18).

Do JWs fit this point? Yes and no. No in the sense that the WT is not run by ONE authoritarian leader. It is run by a Governing Body of 11-18 men (Franz, p. 39). However, this group of men does rule the members of the WT in the manner Enroth describes....

2. Oppositional

Enroth explains what he means by this point, "Their beliefs, practices, and values are counter to those of the dominant culture. They often place themselves in an adversial role vis-a-vis major social institutions."

The JWs take pride in believing that they are separate from "the world."

Their own publications state:
Jehovah's Witnesses are neutral with regard to the political and military affairs of the nations. They do not interfere with what others do as to voting in political elections, running for or campaigning for political offices, joining the military etc. Since true dedicated Christians are "no part of the world," if one pursues a course in violation of his Christian neutrality, he disassociates himself from the neutral Christian congregation (Pay, p. 149).

Along with separating themselves from governmental institutions, JWs are also required to leave and/or refrain from joining or being involved in any way with any religious organization other than the WT.

The issue of a Christians relationship to the state is too complex of an issue to be pursued here. Suffice it to say, that any decision reached must take into account Paul's teaching on the subject in Romans 13 and John's attitude expressed in Rev 13. However, given the complexity of the issue, it is difficult to see how the WT can take such a dogmatic stance as to threaten with disfellowshipping, anyone who disagrees with their opinions....

3. Exclusivistic

Related to the oppositional character of cults is their elitism and exclusionism. The group is the only one which possesses the "truth" and therefore to leave the group is to endanger one's salvation. Usually the new "truth" is based on a new revelation given to the group's prophet/ founder/leader.

A former member of an aberrational Christian group describes the attitude of exclusiveness so typical of the cultic mind set.

Our leader was critical of all established denominational churches and people who didn't believe as he taught . I became mentally isolated because it was felt that nobody outside of Glory Barn teaching was walking in as much truth as we were and therefore their opinion was not valid. I became cloistered in a world of Bible meetings and spiritual pride. I felt that I had all the truth and that no other people had anything to offer (Enroth, pp. 19, 20)....

4. Legalistic

Are JWs legalistic? Psychologist Jerry Bergman lists 62 activities that JWs are forbidden to participate in (Bergman, pp. 104-7). He emphasizes that the list above is by no means exhaustive, but only a sample (Bergman, p. 107).

He comments, "The Governing Body has now, indeed, expressed God's law to JWs in the same form as the Mosaic Law, a list of do's and don'ts, rarely allowing them to use there own judgement . . . . There is much hairsplitting about inconsequential decrees while the unenforceable, weightier matters--love of neighbor, justice and faith--are neglected" (Bergman, p.104).

How does the WT justify this new law? Their handbook, Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock, is used to train their elders....

5. Subjective

Cultic movements place considerable emphasis on the experiential - on feelings and emotions . . . "Follow your feelings" is the message of Rajneesh and many other contemporary gurus (Enroth, p. 21).

Here is the first point at which JWs do not match up to Enroth's definition exactly. The JWs that I have talked to generally have not appealed to their feelings as proof that their teachings are true as say a Mormon would.

However, Enroth continues, "Subjectivism is sometimes linked to anti- intellectualism, putting down rational processes and devaluing knowledge and education" (Enroth, p. 21). The problem here relates back to point #1, authoritarianism.

6. Persecution-Conscious

Perceived persecution is one of the hallmarks of virtually all new religious movements. Their literature, public statements and in-house indoctrination all convey the theme that in one form or another their group is being singled out for persecution--by mainstream Christians, the president, parents or the government (Enroth, p. 22).

We are now back to a perfect description of JW mentality. Their literature states, "Why are Jehovah's Witnesses persecuted and spoken against? . . . Persecution comes because Jehovah's Witnesses put (Jesus') commands ahead of those of any earthly ruler" (Reasoning, p. 207).

Unfortunately, it is true that JWs have been persecuted. Bergman relates, "Although Witnesses may exaggerate this persecution, it is real and sometimes serious. In some non-western countries they have been hunted down like animals and thousands have been slaughtered . . . Even in the United States, a land founded on the principle of religious freedom, JWs have at times been persecuted" (Bergman, pp. 59, 60).

Of course, it is wrong for anyone to be physically persecuted for their religious beliefs. However, a couple of points need to be related in this regard....

7. Sanction-Oriented

Cults require conformity to established practices and beliefs and readily exercise sanctions against the wayward. Those who fail to demonstrate the proper allegiance, who raise too many questions, disobey the rules or openly rebel are punished, formally excommunicated or merely asked to leave the group (Enroth, p. 23).

For the WT, formal excommunication is the means of sanction used. The WT calls it disfellowshipping.

Bergman explains the harshness of the WT:
A JW is required to strictly follow all of the rules, however minor, which originate from WT Headquarters in Brooklyn. Love and acceptance are conditional, based upon rigid adherence to dogma established by the Governing Body. Little consideration is given to the necessity to learn from one's own experience . . . . Shortcomings, even honest mistakes, are often interpreted as evidence of deliberate sin and punished accordingly (Bergman, p. 82).

The same type of punishment is also levied on anyone who chooses to leave the organization on their own accord (Pay, p. 171). What does this punishment of disfellowshipping entail....

8. Esoteric

Cultic religion is a religion of secrecy and concealment . . . . This kind of esotericism, Alexander continues, "accepts the appropriateness (and practical necessity) of a deliberately created gap between the picture that is projected to the general public and the inner reality known to initiators (Enroth, pp. 23, 4).

The WT claims, ". . . the Christian witnesses of Jehovah are the best-oriented, happiest and most contented group of people on the face of the earth. They get along better with each other than do people of any other religion, tribe or social group . . ." ("Awake!" 3/8/60, quoted in Bergman, p. 38).

They also claim that the love manifested in their congregations is proof that they are the one true religion (You Can, pp. 189, 90).

However, once one gets inside the organization, a different picture emerges. In his book, The Mental Health of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Bergman documents that the rate of mental illness among JWs is 4-5 times the national average. After documenting this statement in the first three chapters of the book, he attempts to explain why this is the case in the next two chapters....

9. Antisacerdotal

Cults tend to be organizations comprised of lay people. There are no paid clergy or professional religious functionaries like those in traditional groups (Enroth, p.25).

The WT states:
None of the overseers receive a salary for the work that they do in the congregation. It is true that the work they do one behalf of their brothers may require many hours, and some of them may even cut down on the amount of secular work that they do, in order to have more time for the congregation. But they do this out of love for Jehovah and for his "sheep," not with expectation of any material gain (Organization, p. 150).

This practice does sound rather commendable. However, the lack of a paid clergy prevents the WT from having any true scholars in their organization....

Conclusion

I started this two-part article by asking the question, "Are Jehovah's Witnesses a cult?" I defined the word cult by using a nine point definition by sociologist, Ronald Enroth. Throughout this paper, I have demonstrated that the WT matches up almost perfectly to each point as defined by Enroth. Therefore, the conclusion reached is Jehovah's Witnesses are in fact a cult based on a sociological definition."
http://www.dtl.org/cults/treatise/jws-cult-1.htm
 
From a sociological perspective, I could agree with you, Vic. However, I don't think this is what most people have in mind when the word 'cult' is used. In this mindset, I feel the JWs are wrongly labeled and IMO this 'labeling' has caused much grief for my church being labeled a cult (though I'm sure many of the rabid anti-SDAs would make all your 9 points fit my church)

The other thing to consider is that (with the exception of maybe number 8 as a widespread criteria), all of your points can apply to the Christian church's many denominations in some form or another.

When I see preachers dancing and screaming up on the stage for people to 'feel the spirit' and whipping them into a frenzy while they roll around on the floor and babble incoherently, I see #1 and 5 to a tee. Nearly every church has #4 and 7 within their midst. Ask any Christian group in a third world country and I guarantee you they would agree with #6.
 
guibox said:
From a sociological perspective, I could agree with you, Vic. However, I don't think this is what most people have in mind when the word 'cult' is used. In this mindset, I feel the JWs are wrongly labeled and IMO this 'labeling' has caused much grief for my church being labeled a cult (though I'm sure many of the rabid anti-SDAs would make all your 9 points fit my church)

The other thing to consider is that (with the exception of maybe number 8 as a widespread criteria), all of your points can apply to the Christian church's many denominations in some form or another.

When I see preachers dancing and screaming up on the stage for people to 'feel the spirit' and whipping them into a frenzy while they roll around on the floor and babble incoherently, I see #1 and 5 to a tee. Nearly every church has #4 and 7 within their midst. Ask any Christian group in a third world country and I guarantee you they would agree with #6.
It's great that we can all belong to one cult or another. It is also nice that we can take the intent and meaning of a noun and completely butcher it apart from context. The truth of the whole matter is, that the only truth is the Word of God. Anything apart from that is a lie.
 
Solo:
The truth of the whole matter is, that the only truth is the Word of God. Anything apart from that is a lie.

Sputnik: Oh dear, doesn't EVERY Christian denomination fit into that category to one degree or another?
 
SputnikBoy said:
Solo:
The truth of the whole matter is, that the only truth is the Word of God. Anything apart from that is a lie.

Sputnik: Oh dear, doesn't EVERY Christian denomination fit into that category to one degree or another?

Of course not, because the bottom line in any cult is comes down to making Jesus less than who the bible says he really is (which includes making man greater than who he really is as well).
 
guibox said:
I don't care how much you dislike JWs, you cannot even compare them to the above groups .
Actually, in one simple respect you can. Each one of them leads it's members straight to hell. That is enough of a similarity to me to label them a cult.
 
CULT:

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.


I think everyone has the right to call a religion cult. It's not judging at all, it's the definition.
 
matt said:
CULT:

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.


I think everyone has the right to call a religion cult. It's not judging at all, it's the definition.

Cults are defined from a Christian perspective which includes the behavioral definition that the secularists use to eliminate the Christian stance on this. It would be easy for the muslims to call Christians a cult (which they do) or anyone else for that matter. But if you define it from a realistic perspective, it will be from Jesus's end of this, not the secular definitive.
 
Back
Top