journeyman
Member
Alfred, I will start a thread on it. May I have your permission to reprint your post above to start it with?
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Jehovah's Witnesses deny Jesus' promise to the thief: "Today you will be with me in paradise"
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
Why not rephrase it as you like? But, you have my permission to quote it if you like, but its your OP, it should only be a quote you comment on.
journeyman
Member
Thank you Alfred.
Hi Alfred Persson
Most punctation found in our translations of the Scriptures were added unto.
New Testament (NT) manuscripts were written without separation between words and sentences; little or no punctuation was used to indicate how the text should be read. The comma, for example, was introduced as late as the ninth century; before that, short pauses were sometimes indicated by means of a point on the line ( . ), while full stops were indicated by a high point ( ˙ ). Though no NT autograph has survived, most likely originally Luke 23:43 had no punctuation of any kind, as Papyrus Bodmer XIV-XV (or simply P75) seems to demonstrate. Written at the beginning of the third century, P75 is our oldest copy of Luke and it has no point either before or after sēmeron in our passage, though some punctuation can be found here and there.
So do consider that some human long after Luke wrote his testimony of Jesus' life, added that comma that forces us to read the passage as many do today. So Jesus could have well meant that he was speaking to the man today, about what will happen in the future, or he could have been telling him that within the next 24 hours, he would be with him. I tend to lean towards the former.
God bless,
Ted
I don't agree. I know commas and verse references were invented by humans, not inspired by God. The translation committees of scripture put the comma there, because it is implied by the context.
Its less likely the text should be read as Jesus "telling the thief TODAY", which is redundant. It would be odd if Jesus, speaking to someone who would die with Him that very day, had to specify "Today I say...."
The context is not where Jesus is correcting an accepted dogma: "you have heard it said...but today I say to you"
The thief was asking about the future, and Christ corrected him. Not "in the future", but "TODAY" your faith in Me will be rewarded.
"Despite all appearances you have faith in my claim to be the Messiah, therefore despite all appearances (our crucifixion and death that day) TODAY YOU will be with Me in Paradise!"
Not likely Christ would inform the thief WHEN He is speaking, the thief already knew that.
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Greetings again Alfred Persson,
Luke 23:39–43 (KJV adjusted): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Kind regards
Trevor
You continue to ignore the obvious, because you are so locked up with your immortal souls and going to heaven when you die. The thief is asking to be remembered for good in the future day at the Judgement Seat when Jesus returns from heaven to establish His Kingdom. Instead Jesus gives him an answer then and there, TODAY.
Luke 23:39–43 (KJV adjusted): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Kind regards
Trevor
Incorrect, it is you who ignore the obvious. The thief asked to be remembered in Christ's future kingdom, Jesus corrects him to say "truly I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in paradise." The very day both died.
We see this confirmed by the NT usage of "Verily Verily I say to you" (KJV) " by Jesus:
The phrase "Assuredly I say to you" always indicates the "unexpected" was about to be revealed. We see that everywhere Jesus used the phrase:
BYZ Matt. 5:26 Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἐξέλθῃς ἐκεῖθεν, ἕως ἂν ἀποδῷς τὸν ἔσχατον κοδράντην.
BYZ Matt. 26:34 Ἔφη αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ὅτι ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτί, πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι, τρὶς ἀπαρνήσῃ με.
BYZ Mk. 14:30 Καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ὅτι σὺ σήμερον ἐν τῇ νυκτὶ ταύτῃ, πρὶν ἢ δὶς ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι, τρὶς ἀπαρνήσῃ με.
BYZ Lk. 23:43 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
BYZ Jn. 3:3 Ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.
BYZ Jn. 3:5 Ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.
BYZ Jn. 3:11 Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ὅτι ὃ οἴδαμεν λαλοῦμεν, καὶ ὃ ἑωράκαμεν μαρτυροῦμεν· καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἡμῶν οὐ λαμβάνετε.
BYZ Jn. 13:38 Ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Τὴν ψυχήν σου ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ θήσεις; Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἀλέκτωρ φωνήσῃ ἕως οὗ ἀπαρνήσῃ με τρίς.
BYZ Jn. 21:18 Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ὅτε ἦς νεώτερος, ἐζώννυες σεαυτόν, καὶ περιεπάτεις ὅπου ἤθελες· ὅταν δὲ γηράσῃς, ἐκτενεῖς τὰς χεῖράς σου, καὶ ἄλλος σε ζώσει, καὶ οἴσει ὅπου οὐ θέλεις.
For those who don't read Greek, below is every instance where Jesus said "Assuredly I say to you". Notice how the phrase indicates something unexpected will be revealed, in every occurrence:
25 "Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:25-26 NKJ)
33 Peter answered and said to Him, "Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble."
34 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." (Matt. 26:33-34 NKJ)
29 Peter said to Him, "Even if all are made to stumble, yet I will not be."
30 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that today, even this night, before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times." (Mk. 14:29-30 NKJ)
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:39-43 NKJ)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.' (Jn. 3:3-7 NKJ)
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (Jn. 3:9-12 NKJ)
37 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake."
38 Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times. (Jn. 13:37-14:1 NKJ)
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.
18 "Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish."
19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me." (Jn. 21:17-19 NKJ)
Therefore, whether we put the comma before or after "Today", its still a promise to the Thief "today you will be with me in paradise". That reward for his faith in Jesus was totally unexpected.
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Greetings again Alfred Persson,
Kind regards
Trevor
Both Jesus and the thief were dead and in the grave that day.
Kind regards
Trevor
Please excuse any strange words. I am having some vision problems.
I don’t know if this is trivia?
It would have taken a word of knowledge for Jesus to know when they would die.
Not being a real student of this?:
Jesus died at 3PM?
Was in grave by 6PM?
The hour of Sacrafice was involved.
The coming sabbath was involved. Jesus came under the law, so all that can probably be found.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
I don’t know if this is trivia?
It would have taken a word of knowledge for Jesus to know when they would die.
Not being a real student of this?:
Jesus died at 3PM?
Was in grave by 6PM?
The hour of Sacrafice was involved.
The coming sabbath was involved. Jesus came under the law, so all that can probably be found.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Actually that is a pretty good post.
Jesus was in charge of several kingdoms.
The living
The dead
Healing
A book of of life yet to come
Other?
You were bumping up against all that in your post.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Therefore, your belief they were completely dead, and not just physically dead must be incorrect.
That is obviously incorrect, Jesus promised the thief he would be in paradise with Him that day:
And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)
If I believed the soul died when the body died, and saw this scripture where Christ promised "Today you will be with me in paradise", I would reconsider my beliefs. I wouldn't want to be like the Pharisees, who refused to hear the truth from Christ, even though they knew the scripture contradicted them:
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David."
43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him`Lord,' saying:
44 `The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool "'?
45 "If David then calls Him`Lord,' how is He his Son?"
46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore. (Matt. 22:41-46 NKJ)
Hi Alfred Persson
God bless,
Ted
Yes, and there are none so blind as those who will not see. You're reading it that way because you have accepted that the comma is where your translator has placed it. But the comma wasn't there in the original MSS. So, the comma could just as well have been intended to be here: "Assuredly I say to you today that you will be with me in Paradise." He is merely giving peace to the tormented thief's soul that at the resurrection of the dead, he would gain Paradise. And it likely wasn't capitalized, either.
God bless,
Ted
Greetings again Alfred Persson,
Kind regards
Trevor
I am not sure of what you are saying here. Death is death. A dead ant is a dead ant. A dead human is a dead human.
This is what I have discussed throughout this thread and disagreed with your conclusion.
This seems to be an obvious diversion. I endorse what Jesus stated to the Pharisees here.
Kind regards
Trevor
The human idea of sleep is sleep.
The human idea of death is death.
When it gets complicated is:
Jesus saying to his disciples Lazarus is sleeping.
Different viewpoint.
God sees things differently than man.
Unless
We have the mind if Christ in us.
Installing this mind in the tree on either side of the river requires opening the door to let Jesus into our mind.
Rednecks can have a tough time with higher order concepts.
eddif
The human idea of death is death.
When it gets complicated is:
Jesus saying to his disciples Lazarus is sleeping.
Different viewpoint.
God sees things differently than man.
Unless
We have the mind if Christ in us.
Installing this mind in the tree on either side of the river requires opening the door to let Jesus into our mind.
Rednecks can have a tough time with higher order concepts.
eddif
Paradise at that time was not in heaven but the heart of the earth which was also called Abraham’s Bosom.
JLB
I disagree. Paul said Paradise is in Third Heaven:
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:2-4 KJV)
Paul spoke of someone "caught up to the third heaven" when he was "caught up into paradise", therefore "Paradise is in Third Heaven."
We can confirm the precision of this logic using the following illustration:
If he was "caught up into the State of New York" when he was "caught up into New York City", then "NYC is in New York State".
Please notice I said “at the time”.
That would be before He descended and then ascended…
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40
Paul’s reference was well after He ascended to heaven taking the Old Testament saints with Him.
IOW’s when He said… today you will be with Me in Paradise, it was clear that He was going down into the heart of the earth, not the third heaven.
JLB
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Incorrect chronologically. You deduce paradise changed location because of what Christ did.
BUT:
Both Lazarus and Abraham were "gathered to his people" before Calvary.
Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. (Gen. 25:8 NKJ)
"So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom (Lk. 16:22 NKJ)
Therefore, when Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham he was taken to paradise in Third Heaven.
Therefore, "Abraham's bosom" or "paradise" for righteous souls didn't change location. Its always been in third heaven.
"Sheol/Hades (LXX)" is best conceived of as a "dimension", "an unseen realm" having compartments:
The wicked go into sheol/hades in the earth, the righteous go "upward" into "sheol/hades" that is in third heaven. Its also called paradise.
That is how the "rich man in hades" can look "UPWARD" and see Lazarus with Abraham in paradise:
"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:23 NKJ)
When Christ led "captives in His train" ascending from the lower parts of Sheol/Hades, there was no change in the location of paradise. Its always been in third heaven, with God. Christ led captives in Sheol/Hades, but not Abraham and Lazarus who were already in third heaven paradise.
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Oh well.
The kingdom is:
In us (spirit in human anatomy / symbolism)
In Abrahams bosom
In the 3rd heaven
In creation as symbols
Often we want one or another place, when we should be looking:
In Scripture
Prophets
Creation
Words Jesus spoke
If Christ is in us, uwe can not tell if we are in heaven
Mississippi redneck
eddif