Jehovah's Witnesses deny Jesus' promise to the thief: "Today you will be with me in paradise"

[KV-44-v1]

Alfred Persson
Hi.
There's a person actively belittling Jesus.
He uses Acts 2:36, Acts 10: 37,38 to support "Jesus not God" idea.
How can i respond?

 

[eddif]

We seem to be in full PaRDeS understanding.
If a donkey can talk to a prophet, why do we not see PaRDeS?

I use 1 Peter 2:24 to try and work through this conversation.

There sure seem to be levels of understanding, going on.

Jesus kept parables as two level understanding.
But
Jesus moved the discussion to different areas.
What?
Some parables are?:
Agriculture
Lost items
Social levels
etc.

As a redneck I do not have a bunch of fancy words. I feel we each are (at times) discussing the same thing from different viewpoints.

Mississippi tedneck
eddif

 

[KV-44-v1]

We seem to be in full PaRDeS understanding.
If a donkey can talk to a prophet, why do we not see PaRDeS?

I use 1 Peter 2:24 to try and work through this conversation.

There sure seem to be levels of understanding, going on.

Jesus kept parables as two level understanding.
But
Jesus moved the discussion to different areas.
What?
Some parables are?:
Agriculture
Lost items
Social levels
etc.

As a redneck I do not have a bunch of fancy words. I feel we each are (at times) discussing the same thing from different viewpoints.

Mississippi tedneck
eddif

pardes?? Huh??

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson
Hi.
There's a person actively belittling Jesus.
He uses Acts 2:36, Acts 10: 37,38 to support "Jesus not God" idea.
How can i respond?

Study the Holy Trinity Doctrine. You will see how scripture never contradicts Jesus is BOTH God and Man, Son of God/Son of Man.

Anyone who loves not the LORD Jesus Christ, let them be accursed:

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come! (1 Cor. 16:22 NKJ)

 

[KV-44-v1]

Study the Holy Trinity Doctrine. You will see how scripture never contradicts Jesus is BOTH God and Man, Son of God/Son of Man.

Anyone who loves not the LORD Jesus Christ, let them be accursed:

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come! (1 Cor. 16:22 NKJ)

yes but how can i respond? I want to refute his belittlement.
The Bible says to "give a reason for the hope that is in you". If Jesus "isnt" God then what hope do we have?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Study the Holy Trinity Doctrine. You will see how scripture never contradicts Jesus is BOTH God and Man, Son of God/Son of Man.

Anyone who loves not the LORD Jesus Christ, let them be accursed:

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come! (1 Cor. 16:22 NKJ)

And now he is using Acts 4:23-27 to try to belittle the Savior! Help!

Acts 26-27:
‘Why were the nations insolent,
And the peoples plotting in vain?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’
27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy [servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

 

[KV-44-v1]

He is now using John 14:28 to justify his belittling. Explain how this does not contradict Jesus' Divinity?

 

[Josef]

Jesus confessed Himself as Christ (Messiah) King of the Jews and therefore above every other king on earth.

It has everything to do with the baptism of fire (adversity) He faced and which His disciples would also partake. Being baptized by fire is like fire purifying metal.

Hey All,
Please do not turn Christ's suffering into a state of euphoria. The suffering was real. The agony was real. When He took the sin of the world upon Himself, He really was alone for the first time in forever.
Baptism is s a symbol of Christ's death and resurrection. Jesus was actually dying at these moments. The event doesn't need symbolization. Also, Jesus did not need purifying. He died to cleanse us. Jesus was already clean.

My friend you know the words. Now put them in order so they match what Scripture says. Keep studying to show yourself approved unto God.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[eddif]

This might help
Publican
a
Republican
Democrat
e
Spiritual

We tend to have our box of correct thinking. If it is not in our box it is wrong. It may be wrong, but how do we try to help bring everyone to the mind of Christ?

I have not arrived yet. I am just a redneck.
eddif

 

[eddif]

pardes?? Huh??

Pardes (exegesis) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

eddif

 

[eddif]

yes but how can i respond? I want to refute his belittlement.
The Bible says to "give a reason for the hope that is in you". If Jesus "isnt" God then what hope do we have?

We do not fight against flesh and blood, but against spiritual powers in high places.

We probably all start out on (he is the problem). Eventually it goes to (what evil power is the cause of the problem)?

There are battles to be fought. It is a spiritual battle. I have problems keeping it spiritual.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings KV-44-v1 and Greetings again Alfred Persson,

If Jesus "isnt" God then what hope do we have?

The hope of sharing everlasting life in Paradise with the thief, as promised to the thief in his dying moments. Jesus will return to raise him from the dead and establish His Kingdom on earth for the 1000 years. We can share in this hope as detailed by Paul in 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

Yes, Jesus is the appointed vessel through whom Salvation is available. Jesus is the Christ, the Saviour, The Son of God.
John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

B.t.w., I do not agree that this is the correct thread to discuss Biblical Unitarianism. Also you are advertising some verses that undermine the Trinitarian cause.

Anyone who loves not the LORD Jesus Christ, let them be accursed:
If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!

I would be move careful in invoking a curse on anyone, especially when in one instance you say "the LORD Jesus Christ and in the next sentence you say "the Lord Jesus Christ".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

He is now using John 14:28 to justify his belittling. Explain how this does not contradict Jesus' Divinity?

To refute JWs, you must know Christian doctrine, the Holy Trinity in particular. Until God opens your mind to the truth, JW logical fallacies will appear to be sound.

Their Apples are Oranges comparisons are convincing to the untrained mind. For example, "greater" is not the same word as "better" yet subtly they have defined both words as the same: "Apples are Oranges":

For JW Arianism to be correct, the word "better", not "greater" should appear:

"You have heard Me say to you,`I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said,`I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (Jn. 14:28 NKJ)

If you are King, and you have a child....you are "greater" in power and authority, but not "better" because your child is fully human as you.

Jesus is God's only Begotten Son, fully God like His Father. He is not "sub-God" just as your child would not be "sub-human":

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Jn. 1:18 NKJ)

Moreover, JW Arianism is brain dead. Does any mere human need to tell others, "God is greater than I?"

Of course not, EVERYONE knows that!

No need to declare the obvious UNLESS its not obvious. UNLESS there is some doubt.

Why would the disciples not already know the "Father is greater than the Son"? Because they understood Jesus is God in the Flesh:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)
...
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (Jn. 1:1-3, 14 NKJ)

Now we will learn if you are a JW pretending to be a Christian.

I almost became a JW over 40 years ago, but "Apostles of Denial" by EC Gruss convinced me they were wrong about the Holy Trinity. Since then a lot of other great apologetic books disproving JW doctrine have appeared. You can find them all over the Internet. You should seek your answers there or post specific verses here and ask for help. I don't have the time to go through each verse others have ably answered in all those books on the subject.

You said "he belittles Christ". I wouldn't try to prove anything to a mocker:

"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. (Matt. 7:6 NKJ)

Anyone who loves not the LORD Jesus Christ, let them be accursed:
If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come! (1 Cor. 16:22 NKJ)

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Actually, John the Baptist shouted from the rooftops who Jesus is:

Not until after He was baptized,

They did believe Jesus was a sinner, that is revealed in the gospel record.

Many didn't,

ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believe dhim: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Mt.21:32 KJV

But Jesus baptism was never cited as proof of that. They themselves went to John to be

I never said it did. My point is He only appeared to be a sinner and was falsely accused of being one.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hey All,
Please do not turn Christ's suffering into a state of euphoria.

I never said or implied the asnine idea that Jesus enjoyed suffering. He enjoyed doing Gods' will no matter what suffering He endured by the sinful acts of men inflicted on Him. His disciples did also,

And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. Act.5:41 KJV

Christs' sacrifice seen from Gods' point of view is right, but viewed from the Sanhedrins perspective is wrong.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings KV-44-v1 and Greetings again Alfred Persson,

The hope of sharing everlasting life in Paradise with the thief, as promised to the thief in his dying moments. Jesus will return to raise him from the dead and establish His Kingdom on earth for the 1000 years. We can share in this hope as detailed by Paul in 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

Yes, Jesus is the appointed vessel through whom Salvation is available. Jesus is the Christ, the Saviour, The Son of God.
John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

B.t.w., I do not agree that this is the correct thread to discuss Biblical Unitarianism. Also you are advertising some verses that undermine the Trinitarian cause.


I would be move careful in invoking a curse on anyone, especially when in one instance you say "the LORD Jesus Christ and in the next sentence you say "the Lord Jesus Christ".

Kind regards
Trevor

Its counter productive to address a post to different posters, its confusing what is being said to whom; and why do that? Too much work? I am notified when someone replies to me. I noticed you included me, only by chance.

I stated my thoughts about those who "belittle" Jesus attacking Christian doctrine, "let them be accursed".

It was implied he doesn't "belittle" because of ignorance but to preach a different gospel:

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ. (Gal. 1:8-10 NKJ)

Anyone who responds to the love Christ shown dying for their sins---with "belittling", while scheming to subvert the faith of a child of God with lies, deserves Gehenna:

42 and whoever may cause to stumble one of the little ones believing in me, better is it for him if a millstone is hanged about his neck, and he hath been cast into the sea.
43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
46 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
(Mk. 9:42-48 YLT)

 

[journeymanisnothing]

To refute JWs, you must know Christian doctrine, the Holy Trinity in particular. Until God opens your mind to the truth, JW logical fallacies will appear to be sound.

Their Apples are Oranges comparisons are convincing to the untrained mind. For example, "greater" is not the same word as "better" yet subtly they have defined both words as the same: "Apples are Oranges":

For JW Arianism to be correct, the word "better", not "greater" should appear:

"You have heard Me say to you,`I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said,`I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (Jn. 14:28 NKJ)

If you are King, and you have a child....you are "greater" in power and authority, but not "better" because your child is fully human as you.

Jesus is God's only Begotten Son, fully God like His Father. He is not "sub-God" just as your child would not be "sub-human":

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Jn. 1:18 NKJ)

Moreover, JW Arianism is brain dead. Does any mere human need to tell others, "God is greater than I?"

Of course not, EVERYONE knows that!

No need to declare the obvious UNLESS its not obvious. UNLESS there is some doubt.

What wasn't obvious to unbelievers is that Jesus always pointed mankind toward God.

Why would the disciples not already know the "Father is greater than the Son"? Because they understood Jesus is God in the Flesh:

They didn't understand that until after the Messiah rose from death.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)
...
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (Jn. 1:1-3, 14 NKJ)

Yes and John wrote this after he and the others ran in fear from the party who arrested God.

Now we will learn if you are a JW pretending to be a Christian.

See, this is the perplexing part of it. How on earth can you wonder about me being a JW, when I'm saying, "Jesus could never be separated from His Father. Not even for a nanosecond.

I almost became a JW over 40 years ago, but "Apostles of Denial" by EC Gruss convinced me they were wrong about the Holy Trinity. Since then a lot of other great apologetic books disproving JW doctrine have appeared. You can find them all over the Internet.

There all over this website in JW threads.

You should seek your answers there or post specific verses here and ask for help. I don't have the time to go through each verse others have ably answered in all those books on the subject.

I go to the Bible and pray for answeres

You said "he belittles Christ". I wouldn't try to prove anything to a mocker:

"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. (Matt. 7:6 NKJ)

Anyone who loves not the LORD Jesus Christ, let them be accursed:
If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come! (1 Cor. 16:22 NKJ)

I know God gave me the right to stop sharing the gospel with a person or a group,

whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. Lk.9:5 KJV

I don't think most churchgoees know the power of that kind of authority and that it belongs to us now, not later.

So much for those who think the meek are the weak.

As far as when the thief actually went to Heaven I'm not sure. My own personal belief is that our Lord had to ascend before the thief.

 

[Alfred Persson]

See, this is the perplexing part of it. How on earth can you wonder about me being a JW, when I'm saying, "Jesus could never be separated from His Father. Not even for a nanosecond.

That reply was addressed to KV-44-v1, not you.

The OP isn't about your theological errors. Make your own OP to address them.

When people try to understand scripture in total ignorance of the Holy Trinity, they discover nothing fits correctly. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is the picture the individual pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, reveal.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

That reply was addressed to KV-44-v1, not you.

I am sorry.

The OP isn't about your theological errors. Make your own OP to address them.

I understand it's about the Jws misundersranding of scripture. I was pointing out they twist other scriptures also.

Alfred Perssom:
When people try to understand scripture in total ignorance of the Holy Trinity, they discover nothing fits correctly. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is the picture the individual pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, reveal.

I agree and that can happen to anyone. Jws as well as respected Reformed theologians (like Martin Luther, etc) believe Paul is comparing Jesus with His Father here,

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted,which did put all things under him. 1Cor.15:27 KJV

So the Reformed doctrine and Jws are wrong.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I am sorry.

I understand it's about the Jws misundersranding of scripture. I was pointing out they twist other scriptures also.

I agree and that can happen to anyone. Jws as well as respected Reformed theologians (like Martin Luther, etc) believe Paul is comparing Jesus with His Father here,

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted,which did put all things under him. 1Cor.15:27 KJV

So the Reformed doctrine and Jws are wrong.

If you believe either are wrong, author a thread on why. Perhaps I'll join you there. But equating the two, is impossible. The Reformed represent a very scripturally based segment of the Protestants. JWs are a cult that sprang up in the late 1800s.

That the communal brain cell of Jehovah's Witnesses has left the building, is illustrated by the empty Tomb of Christ. Rather than say, along with the rest of the Church "He is risen!", they exclaim "look, His body dissolved into gases!"