Jehovah's Witnesses deny Jesus' promise to the thief: "Today you will be with me in paradise"

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

I agree. The thief was looking forward to the return of Jesus to be in his kingdom, but Jesus was telling him that that day, “today,” was the day he would be with Jesus, in paradise.

You are reaffirming the normal translation, placing the comma before "Today". Now I am no Greek scholar in any form, but two Greek scholars at least have allowed my perspective. Rotherham also is known for his "Emphasis" in his "Emphasised Bible" and I understand that he has made a special study of the sequence of the Hebrew and Greek words, and he can give a decision as to where the "emphasis" of a sentence should be placed. Now I DO NOT know if this is the case here.

Does it ever make sense to talk to someone and say, “I say to you today…”? Is that ever used elsewhere in the Bible?

Yes, it makes complete sense in the context as a direct answer to what the thief asked. You seem to fail to see any connection between the two statements.

Well, first, you are assuming what the thief believed about immortal souls.

Yes, he believed in the resurrection, not only of Jesus, but also himself when Jesus would return.

Second, even if he did believe in the immortality of the soul, should he believe any differently than even the disciples who were expecting a military victory to vanquish their enemies and establish the kingdom of God?

The thief is set forth as possessing remarkable faith towards the end. There were perhaps only a few others, who believed that a crucified Jesus could still be the Messiah, and that his crucifixion was somehow the means of forgiveness of sins, as clearly asked by Jesus shortly before. We are given the picture that it was only towards the end that the various pieces of understanding by the thief started to click together.

Should Jesus not correct this false idea that that was imminent?

Jesus supplied a parable regarding this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

The Apostle Paul faced much the same situation as the thief when he was about to depart from this present world. Like the thief he anticipated suffering a violent death, as he was about to be "offered". Paul does not look forward to going to some nether world called "Paradise" where his immortal soul would be comforted and blessed until the return of Christ, and then the Judgement and the Kingdom. Rather Paul speaks directly about both the Judgement Seat and the Kingdom when Jesus returns. It is as if Paul's next conscious moments will be when these events occur.

2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Despite all that Paul had done, and what his faith was at that time, he still anticipated that he would have to line up at the Judgement Seat to receive his reward of everlasting life in the future Kingdom of God on earth. Behind him would be Timothy and many of us, some who love his appearing and others who were not really interested. We are encouraged by Paul's example and confidence that he will be accepted before the righteous Judge, but nevertheless we all need to face the Judgement Seat at the return of Jesus.

Yes, the thief was thinking of the Kingdom and the Judgement Seat and I believe that Jesus gave him a simple, straight answer, then and there, that he would be approved and enter into the Kingdom, Paradise, the Garden restored. If you demand that Jesus must disclose something new, then it is not the change from the Kingdom to an immortal soul nether world, it is the fact that the thief will not have to line up behind Paul and in front of us at the Judgement Seat. He was given a Pass already, and he was comforted then and there that he would find his rest in the Kingdom, no anxious worry about his acceptability, no need to continue to plead and weep for all his past errors, but a quiet comfort looking forward to that blessed time.

Kind regards
Trevor

I agree Paul was looking for his crown in Christ's Kingdom, after the resurrection. Crowning a soul in paradise is premature. Paul was looking forward to being in paradise with Christ, immediately after he died:

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:6-10 NKJ)

Notice, there is no delay. Immediately one is "present with the LORD" upon absence from the body. But the crown comes after the resurrection, after we appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

That is true for these souls under the altar. They are given robes, not crowns because that would be premature. Their reward is coming after their resurrection:

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

Notice when the crown are given, at the "first resurrection". It is then we become "kings" of Christ:

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Rev. 1:5-6 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6 NKJ)

In light of these scriptures, Christ's promise to the thief was 'today, when you are absent from the body, you will be with me in paradise."

 

[journeymanisnothing]

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

Quite frankly Alfred,
JWs' don't really understand what Jesus was saying because they fail to realize Jesus came into this world as an example of how God wants us to live. As an example of how God wants us to show His character to the world. He wants us to really love our enemies. In other words to be conformed to the image of his Son Rom.8:29 KJV

Not only JWs', but many reformed churches do not understand how learning to love others as God does can be very painful because God does His enemies who have no regard for Him.
This is what "the chastening of the Lord" is. This is what Jesus who needed no correction submitted Himself to. As an example of how longsuffering God is toward sinners,

Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example 1Pet.2:21 KJV

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

Notice, there is no delay. Immediately one is "present with the LORD" upon absence from the body. But the crown comes after the resurrection, after we appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

I do not read immortal souls into this reference.

That is true for these souls under the altar.

Nor with this reference either.

In light of these scriptures, Christ's promise to the thief was 'today, when you are absent from the body, you will be with me in paradise."

I disagree. I have fairly completely given my perspective. When I have time I may look at a few Commentaries to see if they allow my perspective. I appreciate your interaction, but time to part company.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Quite frankly Alfred,
JWs' don't really understand what Jesus was saying because they fail to realize Jesus came into this world as an example of how God wants us to live. As an example of how God wants us to show His character to the world. He wants us to really love our enemies. In other words to be conformed to the image of his Son Rom.8:29 KJV

Not only JWs', but many reformed churches do not understand how learning to love others as God does can be very painful because God does His enemies who have no regard for Him.
This is what "the chastening of the Lord" is. This is what Jesus who needed no correction submitted Himself to. As an example of how longsuffering God is toward sinners,

Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example 1Pet.2:21 KJV

I'm sorry. Can't see the connection between Christ rewarding the Thief for his faith in Christ at a time when faith was contradicted by everything happening, and loving enemies.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I do not read immortal souls into this reference.

Nor with this reference either.

I disagree. I have fairly completely given my perspective. When I have time I may look at a few Commentaries to see if they allow my perspective. I appreciate your interaction, but time to part company.

Kind regards
Trevor

Neither did I, God alone has immortality. But souls survive physical death.

Scripture describes souls under the altar in heaven:

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

A few commentaries agree with your interpretation, see the bolded below in the Exegetical Summary [of commentaries].

But the reasons for reading it as you do, are unsound as Jesus subsists in two natures, and is everywhere (including paradise) as infinite Spirit God the Son, and localized as the Son of Man on the cross as He spoke:

QUESTION—What is the force of σήμερον ‘today’ in Jesus’ reply?
‘Today’ contrasts with the future coming of Jesus when he comes as king [BECNT, Crd, NIC, Su, TH]. The criminal was thinking about attaining life at the Second Coming, but Jesus assured him that he would immediately enter paradise, the heavenly realm where the righteous are gathered [BAGD, Lns]. He won’t have to wait until the messianic age but it would happen when they both died on that day [Su].
1. ‘Today’ means before sunset when that day ended [Alf, Arn, BECNT, Gdt, Lns, NIC, NTC]. The word ‘with’ states that they will both be in paradise before night sets in [Lns]. This refers to the immediate present, not a few days later when Jesus would be resurrected and would ascend to heaven since Jesus was never in limbo [BECNT]. When Jesus ascended to heaven a few days later in his human nature and resurrected body it was different from his death when his soul went immediately to the abode of God [Lns]. When Jesus died, his soul went immediately to Paradise and this is the same for those who believed in him [Arn]. Or, when Jesus descended in the depths of the earth to announce his triumph to the imprisoned spirits they were perhaps in Paradise [Alf].
2. ‘Today’ was not that very day, but the day when Jesus would inaugurate his messianic salvation when he was exalted by entering into his glory [AB, MGC, NAC, WBC]. The creedal teaching of Jesus’ descent into Hell is a problem if this meant that very day [AB]. Three days would pass as Jesus descended into Hades after his death and afterwards be resurrected and then ascend to heaven [MGC].


BECNT Bock, Darrell L. Luke. 2 vols. Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1994 and 1996.

Crd Creed, John Martin. The Gospel According to St. Luke. London: MacMillan, 1930.

NIC Geldenhuys, Norval. Commentary on the Gospel of Luke. New International Commentary on the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1951.

Su Summers, Ray. Commentary on Luke. Waco, Texas: Word, 1972.

TH Reiline, J., and J. L. Swellengrebel. A Handbook on The Gospel of Luke. New York: United Bible Societies, 1971.

BAGD Bauer, Walter. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. Translated and adapted from the fifth edition, 1958 by William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich. Second English ed. revised and augmented by F. Wilbur Gingrich and Frederick W. Danker. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979.

Lns Lenski, R. C. H. The Interpretation of St. Luke’s Gospel. Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1946.

Su Summers, Ray. Commentary on Luke. Waco, Texas: Word, 1972.

Alf Alford, Henry. The Four Gospels. The Greek Testament, vol. 1. 1874. Reprint. Chicago: Moody, 1968.

Arn Arndt, William F. Luke. St. Louis: Concordia, 1984.

BECNT Bock, Darrell L. Luke. 2 vols. Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1994 and 1996.

Gdt Godet, F. A Commentary on the Gospel of St Luke. 2 vols. 1870. Reprint. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1957.

Lns Lenski, R. C. H. The Interpretation of St. Luke’s Gospel. Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1946.

NIC Geldenhuys, Norval. Commentary on the Gospel of Luke. New International Commentary on the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1951.

NTC Hendriksen, William. Exposition of the Gospel According to Luke. New Testament Commentary. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1978.

Lns Lenski, R. C. H. The Interpretation of St. Luke’s Gospel. Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1946.

BECNT Bock, Darrell L. Luke. 2 vols. Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament. Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1994 and 1996.

Lns Lenski, R. C. H. The Interpretation of St. Luke’s Gospel. Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1946.

Arn Arndt, William F. Luke. St. Louis: Concordia, 1984.

Alf Alford, Henry. The Four Gospels. The Greek Testament, vol. 1. 1874. Reprint. Chicago: Moody, 1968.

AB Fitzmyer, Joseph A. The Gospel According to Luke. 2 vols. Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1981 and 1985.

MGC Pate, C. Marvin. Luke. Moody Gospel Commentary. Chicago: Moody Press, 1995.

NAC Stein, Robert H. Luke. New American Commentary. Nashville, Tenn.: Broadman, 1992.

WBC Nolland, John. Luke. 3 vols. Word Biblical Commentary. Dallas: Word Books, 1989 and 1993.

AB Fitzmyer, Joseph A. The Gospel According to Luke. 2 vols. Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1981 and 1985.

MGC Pate, C. Marvin. Luke. Moody Gospel Commentary. Chicago: Moody Press, 1995.

-Blight, R. C. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of Luke 12–24 (2nd ed., p. 518). SIL International.

 

[Josef]

I agree. The thief was looking forward to the return of Jesus to be in his kingdom, but Jesus was telling him that that day, “today,” was the day he would be with Jesus, in paradise.

Does it ever make sense to talk to someone and say, “I say to you today…”? Is that ever used elsewhere in the Bible?


Well, first, you are assuming what the thief believed about immortal souls. Second, even if he did believe in the immortality of the soul, should he believe any differently than even the disciples who were expecting a military victory to vanquish their enemies and establish the kingdom of God? Should Jesus not correct this false idea that that was imminent?

Hey All,

"Does it ever make sense to talk to someone and say, “I say to you today…”? Is that ever used elsewhere in the Bible?" Quote from Free

It makes sense if you are dying and there will not be a tomorrow for you. Think about it.


Now let's answer your questions TrevorL.

"My questions now are:
1. Where is Paradise located?" Question from TrevorL

Paradise is a place of blessing where the righteous go after death. The word paradise is usually used as a synonym for “heaven” (Revelation 2:7).

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So Paul equates the third heaven with paradise. I believe it is fair to say paradise is used as a synonym for heaven.

2. "Was the Thief in Paradise with Jesus on that day?" Question from TrevorL
That is what Jesus said. Jesus did not misunderstand the thief. The statement is declarative. (Actually, the thief did not ask to be with Jesus. The thief just told Jesus to remember him.)

Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief actually did not ask to go with Jesus into paradise. The thief knew he was not worthy. He had broken the Law. But Jesus knew that the thief, by asking for rememberance, was really asking for forgiveness.
Jesus made him worthy that day. Amen!

The apostle Paul wrote of someone (probably himself) who “was caught up to paradise” (2 Corinthians 12:3). In this context, paradise obviously refers to heaven.


3. "Is the Thief still in Paradise and has Jesus moved on?" Question from TrevorL

Where else would he be?
If you were in paradise, would you want to be anywhere else?

4. "Do immortal souls go to heaven of hell at death? (as is commonly stated at gravesides, for example: "she is looking down at us now")" Question from TrevorL

I believe believers go to heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I hope these answers help

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[eddif]

I agree Paul was looking for his crown in Christ's Kingdom, after the resurrection. Crowning a soul in paradise is premature. Paul was looking forward to being in paradise with Christ, immediately after he died:

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:6-10 NKJ)

Notice, there is no delay. Immediately one is "present with the LORD" upon absence from the body. But the crown comes after the resurrection, after we appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

That is true for these souls under the altar. They are given robes, not crowns because that would be premature. Their reward is coming after their resurrection:

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

Notice when the crown are given, at the "first resurrection". It is then we become "kings" of Christ:

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Rev. 1:5-6 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6 NKJ)

In light of these scriptures, Christ's promise to the thief was 'today, when you are absent from the body, you will be with me in paradise."

In the body or out of the body the assurance exists.
In the body:
Especially the cerebellum planted on either side of the river clear as crystal.
And the 24 rib elders bowing before the natural pacemaker of the heart. (Very complex at heart)
…
Out of the body:
Scripture explains all that happens regarding the resurrection.
So
It is easy to see the ( whether in the body or out of the body I know not.

Human anatomy and scripture run parallel.

Made in the image of God.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josef,

Now let's answer your questions TrevorL.

I appreciate what appears to be a sincere attempt to answer my questions, but I am in no way convinced by the blending together of many verses and ideas. For me to answer all that you have stated will start to turn this thread into a mortal man vs immortality of the soul discussion. I would prefer to leave this thread as a discussion on Luke 23:43 and I am very happy with the perspective that I have given.

As far as the subject of the mortality of man is concerned, my foundation Scripture is:
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
I will not discuss this any further in this thread.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I'm sorry. Can't see the connection between Christ rewarding the Thief for his faith in Christ at a time when faith was contradicted by everything happening, and loving enemies.

That's what the other thief thought. He rejected repentance. Our King didn't need to repent. He wasn't dunked by John to be forgiven (as some may have assumed.)

 

[Alfred Persson]

That's what the other thief thought. He rejected repentance. Our King didn't need to repent. He wasn't dunked by John to be forgiven (as some may have assumed.)

Sorry, don't know what "dunked by John to be forgiven" means, or who thought Jesus needed to repent. The other thief was just a mocker.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Sorry, don't know what "dunked by John to be forgiven" means, or who thought Jesus needed to repent. The other thief was just a mocker.

I mean when He was baptized and it's obvious the religious leaders portrayed Him as a sinner.
This is why scripture says, "he was numbered with the transgressors."

He was slandered. Understand?

 

[Runningman]

Hey All,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

"Jehovah's Witnesses claim the comma should be placed after "today" to show Jesus promised the Thief "you will be with me in my future Messianic Kingdom" and not "today you will be with me in the paradise for departed souls in heaven". Although the vast majority of English Translations put the comma before "today", Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are biased towards traditional Christian beliefs about the afterlife." Quote from Alfred Persson

Here is how you know what people like Jehovah's Witnesses are incorrect either knowingly, or by plain ignorance. Commas did not exist in the Greek language during biblical times. So anybody arguing correct placement of a comma, that did not exist, is automatically incorrect in their interpretation. JWs here been taught on what to say about Jesus and the thief on the cross. So they are regurgitating what they have been fed by JW training. Error begets error.

So now you know how to respond should you hear this fallacy.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

On the matter of comma placement, isn't it subjective depending on the message being conveyed? While the JWs may be wrong about a number of things, they may be right about this if their placement of the comma is substantiated by scripture. In that case, if eternal life is indeed in the age to come, then on this particular point they may not be wrong at all.

Jesus taught eternal life isn't actually until the age to come, i.e., the future. The placement of the comma in Luke 23:43 is not necessarily wrong.

Mark 10​

29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for My sake and for the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundredfold in the present age—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, along with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. ​

​

Luke 20​

35But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.​

​

​

 

[Josef]

On the matter of comma placement, isn't it subjective depending on the message being conveyed? While the JWs may be wrong about a number of things, they may be right about this if their placement of the comma is substantiated by scripture. In that case, if eternal life is indeed in the age to come, then on this particular point they may not be wrong at all.

Jesus taught eternal life isn't actually until the age to come, i.e., the future. The placement of the comma in Luke 23:43 is not necessarily wrong.

Mark 10​

29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for My sake and for the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundredfold in the present age—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, along with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. ​

​

Luke 20​

35But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.​

​

​

Hey All,
Again, there are no commas used in the Greek texts. They were added later. They play no part in meaning of a passage. Any argument about where they are placed will automatically fail.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[eddif]

I would prefer to leave this thread as a discussion on Luke 23:43 and I am very happy with the perspective that I have given.

Is this your thread? I thought Alfred started the thread? I will go back and look.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Josef]

I mean when He was baptized and it's obvious the religious leaders portrayed Him as a sinner.
This is why scripture says, "he was numbered with the transgressors."

He was slandered. Understand?

Hey All,
Jesus was was "numbered with the transgressors" because the chief priests accused Jesus proclaiming Himself a king, and therefore independent of Caesar and Rome.

Luke 22:70-71 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
Luke 23:1-2 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

This has nothing to do with Jesus' baptism.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Alfred Persson]

I mean when He was baptized and it's obvious the religious leaders portrayed Him as a sinner.
This is why scripture says, "he was numbered with the transgressors."

He was slandered. Understand?

I took my "like" back because, as Josef pointed out and I should have also, Jesus baptism had nothing to do with sin. That is why John didn't want to do it:

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. (Matt. 3:13-15 NKJ)

If the religious leaders slandered Jesus for being baptized, its not in the Bible record. As they themselves went to John to be baptized, its not likely they would slander Jesus for doing the same.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hey All,
Jesus was was "numbered with the transgressors" because the chief priests accused Jesus proclaiming Himself a king, and therefore independent of Caesar and Rome.

Luke 22:70-71 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
Luke 23:1-2 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

Jesus confessed Himself as Christ (Messiah) King of the Jews and therefore above every other king on earth.

This has nothing to do with Jesus' baptism.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

It has everything to do with the baptism of fire (adversity) He faced and which His disciples would also partake. Being baptized by fire is like fire purifying metal.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I took my "like" back because, as Josef pointed out and I should have also, Jesus baptism had nothing to do with sin. That is why John didn't want to do it:

For our Lord needing baptism for sin of course not because He wasn't a sinner. Still, Jews know from their scriptures that all men are sinners. Rabbinic Judaism teaches that the Messiah (although the greatest teacher Israel will ever have) will die as other men do leaving the throne of David to his son and so on until the resurrection and then it gets fuzzy.

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. (Matt. 3:13-15 NKJ)

Right and my point was, How many people standing around who knew this man from Nazereth and his family, watched Him grow up, went to His bar mitzvah? They didn't know why He was there. They probably assumed Jesus was there seeking repentance like everyone else.

If the religious leaders slandered Jesus for being baptized, its not in the Bible record.

I never said they slandered Him for being baptized. I said slandering Him was a baptism of fire. All persecution of believers is baptism by fire.

As they themselves went to John to be baptized, its not likely they would slander Jesus for doing the same.

Their attitude toward the Messiah was, Who does this guy think he is? ,

we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24 KJV

Scripture could not prove Jesus is the Messiah until He rose from the dead.

 

[Alfred Persson]

For our Lord needing baptism for sin of course not because He wasn't a sinner. Still, Jews know from their scriptures that all men are sinners. Rabbinic Judaism teaches that the Messiah (although the greatest teacher Israel will ever have) will die as other men do leaving the throne of David to his son and so on until the resurrection and then it gets fuzzy.

Right and my point was, How many people standing around who knew this man from Nazereth and his family, watched Him grow up, went to His bar mitzvah? They didn't know why He was there. They probably assumed Jesus was there seeking repentance like everyone else.

I never said they slandered Him for being baptized. I said slandering Him was a baptism of fire. All persecution of believers is baptism by fire.

Their attitude toward the Messiah was, Who does this guy think he is? ,

we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24 KJV

Scripture could not prove Jesus is the Messiah until He rose from the dead.

Actually, John the Baptist shouted from the rooftops who Jesus is:

24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, saying, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
26 John answered them, saying, "I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know.
27 "It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose."
28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
30 "This is He of whom I said,`After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.'
31 "I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water."
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
33 "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me,`Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
34 "And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God."
35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples.
36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God!" (Jn. 1:24-36 NKJ)

They did believe Jesus was a sinner, that is revealed in the gospel record. But Jesus baptism was never cited as proof of that. They themselves went to John to be baptized.

3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.'"
4 And John himself was clothed in camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him
6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
10 "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. (Matt. 3:3-15 NKJ)