Jesus and His Father are not the same Person

[gingercat]

Act 2:34 " ' The Lord said to my Lord: "sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." '; God the Father talking to His Son Jesus.

Act 7:56 "'Look," he said "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

There are many similar verse like these.

 

[ChristineES]

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

There are many other quotes like that.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

“Jesus and His Father are not the same Personâ€Â

That is correct. Which is why the Trinity is described as such:

‘“The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence.â€Â’
(Source, and for more explanation: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm)

 

[gingercat]

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

There are many other quotes like that.

Jesus is God's first Creation and He has been God's the most, next to God's right hand assistant. God is all mighty and Jesus is mighty. Jesus helped God the Father to create everything else.

They are working together and harmonious in their work. Of course they are one in spirit.

 

[Novum]

Jesus is God's first Creation and He has been God's the most, next to God's right hand assistant. God is all mighty and Jesus is mighty. Jesus helped God the Father to create everything else.

The first line of the bible disagrees with you. Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[gingercat]

Jesus is God's first Creation and He has been God's the most, next to God's right hand assistant. God is all mighty and Jesus is mighty. Jesus helped God the Father to create everything else.

The first line of the bible disagrees with you. Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God does not have beginning. so this is talking about Jesus. This is Jesus' beginning.

 

[thessalonian]

John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
[4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
[5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
*
*
*
[14]
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.


Hmmm. The WORD was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That would be Jesus, the Word which was/is God. Pretty clear.

 

[Novum]

God does not have beginning. so this is talking about Jesus. This is Jesus' beginning.

It says "heavens and earth", not "Jesus".

 

[gingercat]

Hmmm. The WORD was God.

Jesus is still mighty next to God. So it is not exaggerating to call Him God. But they are not one Person.

 

[gingercat]

God does not have beginning. so this is talking about Jesus. This is Jesus' beginning.

It says "heavens and earth", not "Jesus".

Be specific please. There are many verses saying heaven and earth.

 

[Novum]

Be specific please. There are many verses saying heaven and earth.

I said I was talking about Genesis 1:1. There is nothing prior to this verse.

 

[thessalonian]

Hmmm. The WORD was God.

Jesus is still mighty next to God. So it is not exaggerating to call Him God. But they are not one Person.

As has been said above. I agree they are not one person. Pretty standard trinitarian theology. Being a person is not the same as being a God. Personhood has to do with individuality. But the three persons in the Trinity are one God. Jesus is God. It is not an exageration at all. Jesus is the Word became flesh and the WORD WAS GOD! Pretty clear. Yet we know there are not three Gods so in some fashion we know that Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one God. Three persons.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I'm not going to battle it out because I'm not entirely sure of the relationship between God and Jesus.

I do have a question for Trinitarians, however. If the Trinity is correct, are each the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost fully God? If the Father and the Son were to somehow be wiped from existence would we be fine with just the Holy Ghost?

 

[gingercat]

Be specific please. There are many verses saying heaven and earth.

I said I was talking about Genesis 1:1. There is nothing prior to this verse.

Be patient, I will be back. :D

 

[thessalonian]

I'm not going to battle it out because I'm not entirely sure of the relationship between God and Jesus.

I do have a question for Trinitarians, however. If the Trinity is correct, are each the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost fully God? If the Father and the Son were to somehow be wiped from existence would we be fine with just the Holy Ghost?

Yes, they are not fractions of God. There is not three God's. There is one God. Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet they are one God. This is a mystery. One which pure rationalism and human understanding cannot comprehend. God is spirit and so the physical rules by which we understand things do not apply. In the physical realm, bob and joe can't be one human. But in the spiritual realm there are many things we cannot understand. We must accept some things on faith.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in all Christians? I would hope so because that is what the scriptures tell us. Yet there are not a billion Holy Spirits. Nore can there be piecies of the Holy Spirit in each Christian because God is not divisable. There is one Holy Spirit. How can this be? Well you tell me? There are many mysteries of the nature of God.

 

[Duder]

.

Act 2:34 " ' The Lord said to my Lord: "sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." '; God the Father talking to His Son Jesus.

Act 7:56 "'Look," he said "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

There are many similar verse like these.

Greetings, Gingercat -

Try this little thought-experiment: You are looking through a small hole in a fence. On the other side of the fence, a cat walks past the hole. First you see a head, and then you see a tail. The cat turns around and again walks past the hole, and once more you see a head, and then you see a tail.

Never having seen a cat before, and knowing nothing about the true nature of cats, you assume that the head and the tail are two separate things or events, and that the event "head" is the cause of the event "tail". Because of your narrow field of view they appear to be different things that happen in succession.

However, if your perspective were wider (you look over the fence and not through the hole) , you would see that the head and the tail were all of a piece, and that what looked like two separate things or events when you were looking through that little hole turns out to be one head-tailed cat.

While it makes sense in a certain context to refer to the head and tail as if they were separate things, in the largest context there is no separation between them.

All of that is simple enough to understand. And I think it is a good metaphor for describing the apparent separateness but the actual unity of the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son are not different things, though it may appear so while we are looking through the little hole of the human perspective. And really, the Father is not the cause of the Son - we are ultimately talking about a Father-Sonned God who is all of a piece, just like the head-tailed cat.

The human intellect works by chopping reality up into pieces and then relating the pieces one to another. But Jesus says in John 10:30 that He and the Father are one. He is challenging us to understand that the logical chopping we do is often conventional, and not descriptive of reality as it really is.

For the purposes of discussion in the proper context, it is appropriate to think of the Father and the Son as being separate Persons. But we must remind ourselves that in the largest perspective they are the same.

.

 

[thessalonian]

Duder,

However imperfect it may be I like that analogy. No analaogy of course can fully encompass the depth and breath of God in the Trinity, but you know that. Thank you for it.

 

[Imagican]

And 'why' would there be a 'need' to 'create' this 'trinity'? The Catholics who created it are the same ones responsible for it 'still' being accepted as 'doctrine' by almost ALL the denominations. These, both Catholics and other denominations that accept this doctrine will insist that if one doesn't accept it they are NOT born again, and can't be saved.

Funny, but neither Christ Himself, nor His apostles taught such nonsense. It took those that murdered Christ over two hundred years to create and begin to enforce this doctrine. Seems as though something SO important to Christianity would have been offered by God or His Son. As for the Holy Spirit, I have never felt a conviction towards 'trinity' other than that it is 'man-made' doctrine and therefore of none effect.

And, why do you think that those that accept it are so adamant towards others accepting it too?

I know this: An alcoholic, a drug addict, or a thief, rarely hang-out with others that are NOT like-minded. I am not accusing ANYONE of ANYTHING. Just a little food for thought.

Jesus IS the Son of God. I KNOW this. God is the Father of Christ. I KNOW this. I KNOW nothing of the 'trinity' except that it is a pagan name used to describe the Godhead. I prefer to use those sound words offered by the prophets, apostles and CHRIST HIMSELF. I know the relationship that I have developed with the Father through the Son so therefore KNOW that an acceptance of 'trinity' IS NOT necessary in order for salvation to be of effect.

So, to sum it up: I have the Word. And in the Word, there is NO 'trinity'. I know the Father through His Son. I worship ONLY ONE GOD AS GOD. I worship Jesus Christ AS THE SON of God. And I, for one, am very secure in this understanding. For it was 'GIVEN' to me. NOT something that I simply 'choose' to believe, but that which has been offered in understanding.

Making Jesus God simply turns Him into 'another' idol to be worshiped AS God. Jesus IS the Son of God and their 'exact' relationship is NOT something that ANY ONE OF US will completely understand until a 'later time'. To even try to discern or describe or label something that we have an incomplete knowledge of is nothing other than vanity. Thinking that we are smart enough to KNOW EVERYTHING is pure 'self'. Trust in God and trust in Christ and leave the 'man-made' stuff to men of this world that must insist upon their understanding rather than the simplicity that is in Jesus Christ.

 

[stovebolts]

The Trinity states that there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

our??

Hebrew Trinity
Oneness (Achdut) - In the Shema we read, “Shema Yisrael (Hear, 0 Israel): Adonai Eloheinu (the Lord our Gods), Adonai Echad (the Lord is one). Interestingly, the word echad in Hebrew can imply a unity in diversity (the word for one and only one, i.e., unique, is more often rendered as yachid). For example, in Exodus 26:6 the parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that “it shall be one (echad) tabernacle,†and Ezekiel spoke of two “sticks†(representing fragmented Israel) as being reunited into one:
“and they shall be one (echad) stick in My hand†(Ezekiel 37:19). Moses also uses echad in Genesis 2:24 when he says: “And they (husband and wife) will become one flesh (basar echad).â€Â


1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Man consists of a Body, a Soul and a Spirit. Yet are we one? Or are we three?

It is interesting to note that in Exodus 26:6 the parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that “it shall be one (echad) tabernacle,â€Â

Three seperate areas all designates to serve in different areas, yet one entity never the less. Yes, the outer court, the inner court and the inner most place. Three, yet one. Still further, the book of Hebrews tells us that the tabernacle was but a copy of heavenly things...

Am I simply a body, or do I have a body?
Am I simply a Soul, or do I have a soul?
Am I simply a Spirit, or do I have a spirit?

 

[Imagican]

And I ask any that believe in 'trinity', why would God be so vague about such an important issue? And, why wouldn't He have simply revealed Himself as 'God in the flesh'?

Instead we have God, the Father of the Son, Jesus Christ. And I still say that THIS is what was revealed to those that originally received the Holy Spirit, (the apostles and those to who they introduced to the Spirit).

I ask that anyone who doesn't yet understand this 'trinity' thing, (that being MOST 'trinitarians' themselves, for I have YET to have one offer an explanation that is any more understandable than Godhead itself), do a little research into the creating of it, and WHO created it, before even trying to state a belief in it or attempt to teach it to others.

I know Stove, there are many things in the Bible that we can use to 'prove' things to ourselves and others. Many of these things are 'truth', yet as obvious in all the different denominations, many are NOT the 'truth'. When one considers the pagan origin of EVEN THIS WORD, 'trinity', it becomes VERY suspect in it's indications.

And, as I pointed out in my previous post, WHY do 'trinitarians' place such importance in the matter? I have had them go so far as to tell me to my face that if I deny the 'trinity' that I am 'anti-Christ', lost without the possibility of salvation. Now, why would someone, ANYONE be so adamant about me accepting this doctrine? It's like they are 'hell-bent' on forcing it upon EVERYBODY. This is NOT a doctrine that can be justified in the Word. YES, there are many ways in which scripture can be manipulated to indicate this 'trinity', but there is MUCH more that shoots it down in flames.

As there are 'other' entities in heaven, So too are the Father and the Son. Are not all the 'other' entities a 'part of the whole' also? Yet we were told that they are certainly NOT equal to Father, Son or even US. The Bible plainly states that Jesus Christ will one day be our KING, NOT our God. They will still exist simultaneously, yet separate in their very nature. The Bible states that NO man has EVER seen the complete glory of God, yet there were many, many, many people that were eyewitnesses of Christ.

So, what I offer is this: We have a word that describes the relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is Godhead. Offered to us in the Word. Now, why would I turn from this and accept 'something' else that was created by man instead of following what we have been offered in the Word. And, how could something SO important NOT be offered in the Word to begin with?

There hasn't even been an attempt at anyone yet to answer any of these questions. Plenty to point out that the word Bible isn't in the Word. Plenty to offer John 1:1-3, plenty to defend this doctrine wholeheartedly. But not once has anyone offered an explanation of the WHY. And guys, I NEED to know the WHY before I will take man's word over that of God. I know what the Bible tells us about God and Christ and it does NOT tell me that they are a 'trinity'. Especially a 'holy trinity'. This is 'man-made' theology created by a people that were already familiar with a 'trinity' in their pagan religions and simply chose to see one in Father, Son and Spirit. Nothing more, nothing less. And the fact that they had to torture and murder people for hundreds of years to 'force' the acceptance of this doctrine is further 'proof', (as far as I'm concerned), that this doctrine is 'man-made' and NOT the teaching of Christ or the apostles.

But, if what 'trinity' offers is NOT the 'truth' and worshiping Jesus AS God is WRONG, there is MUCH to be lost in it's acceptance. I choose to worship the ONE AND ONLY GOD, AS GOD. fault me if you must, but that is MY understanding of the Word. And, I worship Christ as the Lamb or God, His Son and my Savior. I have much scripture that offers this very teaching, and this is what I choose to follow.

Forbid NOT to wed. Call NO man Father. Thou shall worship NO graven image. And those that choose to ignore these are those that created this 'trinity'. These that would worship dead Saints and even a Woman, calling her 'Queen of Heaven'. NOPE, you won't get me into this one folks. You may choose their teachings that are contradictory to the Word, but I'll take the Word over their words ANY DAY.