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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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gingercat
Guest
Novum said:
Jesus was created before beginning.
Prov 8:22-31
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
Those verses are all about Jesus! :D
Did anyone say anything about a need? As has been stated several times before, it is simply an attempt to take into account all that Scripture reveals about God. Like you, gingercat focuses only on the Scriptures that reveal that Jesus and the Father are not same person but ignores many other passages that state, both explicitly and implicitly, that Jesus is God, that he shares in the same nature as God.Imagican said:
If you ignore Christ referring to himself as "I AM" and the "Son of God," then you sure would cut out a lot of passages. If you ignore Thomas' worship of Christ saying "My Lord and my God," and ignore certain things Paul and John state, you would also cut out a lot of passages. But then you are just doing what I stated above: sticking only to the verses which speak of the distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, while ignoring the clear implication of many other passages.Imagican said:
Ignoring the "poisoning the well" fallacy, the doctrine took a long time to develop as it is very complex and it is difficult to keep the intended meaning of all the relevant passages while bringing out what they all say together.Imagican said:
Because it is a matter of the very nature of God. Why are you so adamant that everyone who believes it should reject it?Imagican said:
Add up all the pagan words used in the Bible, especially those that are in reference to God. Then we'll talk.Imagican said:
So? In stating such you are implying that there has been no one in history who has been given the understanding that God is triune. Don't you find that just a bit prideful?Imagican said:
There you go being adamant again.Imagican said:
But it is much more complete then you let on. Not only that, the same passages we believe shows that Christ is God you say don't show that at all so you are trying to discern just as much as we. You are just as guilty of the same charge.Imagican said:
But yet you just stated: "Jesus IS the Son of God. I KNOW this. God is the Father of Christ. I KNOW this. I KNOW nothing of the 'trinity' except that it is a pagan name used to describe the Godhead."Imagican said:
Pure self right there.
This, just after all the above and stating that "making Jesus God" is idolatry. Who is doing the insisting? Who is being adamant?Imagican said:
To sum up Imagican, I have found that your whole post uses poor reasoning and you are just as guilty of everything you accuse trinitarians of, just as guilty.
I
Imagican
Guest
No, Thess, I am NOT. I have not tried to 'create' ANYTHING. I have simply offered that others HAVE. And still others choose to believe that which has been' made-up.
And NO Noc, in this we would have to agree to disagree. 'Trinity' is NOT a Christian doctrine for there are many many Christians that do NOT accept it. It is a Catholic doctrine introduced into most doctrines of Christianity. But our first leaders, (the apostles), did NOT teach this to the CHURCH that they formed. It took at least a hundred years AFTER the last of them died for this doctrine to be created. Funny, those that murdered Christ would be the ones that God revealed this 'trinity' to when He didn't even reveal it to the apostles of Christ who were commissioned to START the Church.
The way 'trinity' is presented by most 'trinitarians', this is fundamental knowledge. I beg to differ. It's only fundamental to those that have 'learned' it from other men. But, if one were to sit back and trace the history of 'trinity', it's easy to see how one can change even the Word itself, if given enough time to 'wipe-out' all that oppose it. And that is exactly what the Catholic Church did. They tortured, cast out, or murdered all who opposed it for hundreds of years. I'm quite sure that for hundreds of years, most people would have cringed at the thought of denying the 'trinity' for fear of the repercussions.
Even Martin Luther who recognized MUCH of the false doctrine of the Catholics was unable to see 'trinity' as such for it had been drilled into the minds of those that the RC had control over for so long that most weren't even able to see it for what it is EVEN when presented with the Word.
You know guys, if you gave me the time and resources, i could force each and every one of you to believe that a cat is a dog and a dog is a cat. It's called brain-washing and torture and murder are certainly effective tools to produce desired thinking in those that they are employed against. Read your history folks.
These creators of 'trinity' are the same people that believed to emulate Christ meant to murder, or enslave anyone that refused to accept Him as their Savior. Get it? MURDER those that refused to accept Christ as their Savior. No, not forgive and pray for them, MURDER or ENSLAVE them. All in the NAME OF CHRIST.
Now, ask yourself, were these 'truly' following the Son of God? Did these EVEN KNOW the Son of God? If so, how do you explain their treatment of their fellow man. Christ loved us enough to give His life for us. The RCC hated men enough to kill them if they didn't bow to their gods, or priests. Is this really any SORT of Christianity? Really?
Now, we know that there would be a 'falling away'. Most believe that it 'is to come'. Wrong, sorry to burst your collective bubbles, but the 'falling away' began immediately after the formation of the true Church. As with anything beholden to men, the churches were formed and men began to lord over them. THE CHURCH is the body of 'true' believers. It is NOT simply 'a church' or group of worshipers.
And after ALL the warning throughout the NT, there are still those that don't get it. Those that 'truly' act like they believe that there can be SO many different denominations and that they are ALL a part of THE CHURCH. Sorry folks, just like there is ONLY one God, there can be ONLY ONE TRUE CHURCH. And i contend that since NO ONE has yet to answer my question concerning this issue, that they must ALL be wrong. If not, then SOMEBODY tell me which one is the 'true' CHURCH. Anyone but Thess that is, (he he he just joking, but I already know your answer). And even then Thess, your answer would not differ from mine, BUT BY ONE.
And NO Noc, in this we would have to agree to disagree. 'Trinity' is NOT a Christian doctrine for there are many many Christians that do NOT accept it. It is a Catholic doctrine introduced into most doctrines of Christianity. But our first leaders, (the apostles), did NOT teach this to the CHURCH that they formed. It took at least a hundred years AFTER the last of them died for this doctrine to be created. Funny, those that murdered Christ would be the ones that God revealed this 'trinity' to when He didn't even reveal it to the apostles of Christ who were commissioned to START the Church.
The way 'trinity' is presented by most 'trinitarians', this is fundamental knowledge. I beg to differ. It's only fundamental to those that have 'learned' it from other men. But, if one were to sit back and trace the history of 'trinity', it's easy to see how one can change even the Word itself, if given enough time to 'wipe-out' all that oppose it. And that is exactly what the Catholic Church did. They tortured, cast out, or murdered all who opposed it for hundreds of years. I'm quite sure that for hundreds of years, most people would have cringed at the thought of denying the 'trinity' for fear of the repercussions.
Even Martin Luther who recognized MUCH of the false doctrine of the Catholics was unable to see 'trinity' as such for it had been drilled into the minds of those that the RC had control over for so long that most weren't even able to see it for what it is EVEN when presented with the Word.
You know guys, if you gave me the time and resources, i could force each and every one of you to believe that a cat is a dog and a dog is a cat. It's called brain-washing and torture and murder are certainly effective tools to produce desired thinking in those that they are employed against. Read your history folks.
These creators of 'trinity' are the same people that believed to emulate Christ meant to murder, or enslave anyone that refused to accept Him as their Savior. Get it? MURDER those that refused to accept Christ as their Savior. No, not forgive and pray for them, MURDER or ENSLAVE them. All in the NAME OF CHRIST.
Now, ask yourself, were these 'truly' following the Son of God? Did these EVEN KNOW the Son of God? If so, how do you explain their treatment of their fellow man. Christ loved us enough to give His life for us. The RCC hated men enough to kill them if they didn't bow to their gods, or priests. Is this really any SORT of Christianity? Really?
Now, we know that there would be a 'falling away'. Most believe that it 'is to come'. Wrong, sorry to burst your collective bubbles, but the 'falling away' began immediately after the formation of the true Church. As with anything beholden to men, the churches were formed and men began to lord over them. THE CHURCH is the body of 'true' believers. It is NOT simply 'a church' or group of worshipers.
And after ALL the warning throughout the NT, there are still those that don't get it. Those that 'truly' act like they believe that there can be SO many different denominations and that they are ALL a part of THE CHURCH. Sorry folks, just like there is ONLY one God, there can be ONLY ONE TRUE CHURCH. And i contend that since NO ONE has yet to answer my question concerning this issue, that they must ALL be wrong. If not, then SOMEBODY tell me which one is the 'true' CHURCH. Anyone but Thess that is, (he he he just joking, but I already know your answer). And even then Thess, your answer would not differ from mine, BUT BY ONE.
stovebolts
Member
Imagician,
I think that Free did an excellent job refuting your post and thus, there is little need for me to directly respond to your post. However, I would like to set my sights on you for a moment and expose how silly you are actually being as you rant your anti catholic rhetoric.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Think about this. I believe the principal applies…
Simply put, your assumption is not only incomplete, but it is incorrect as well.
Actually, I stumbled across my understanding of the trinity by sheer accident. I was not seeking it, it simply popped out of scripture one day. I find it ironic that you did not respond to my last post directly. Stop sidestepping the issue with rhetoric and stay focused and we might get this resolved.
I have nothing to prove, but much to share. It is a shame when we wretched people come together as a group and abuse scripture to such a degree, that we loose it’s meaning out of sheer fear of being associated with another evil group... (tongue in cheek humor here). But to break things down a bit. Tri means three, ity means quality, in means to encapsulate. In essence, we have the quality of three encapsulated into one… Dictionary.com uses this definition.
Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.
Notice the word theology… This word is not in the Bible either, yet our very understanding of God is shown through our theology from an intellectual and emotional perspective. Suspect all you want, it doesn’t change the reality.
I am not forcing anything on you. Get rid of your baggage as it must weigh you down as clearly shown in the angst of your posts. Psychologists would call your remarks displaced anger and you must know that it is not good for you. We really need to eliminate all the pronouns out of this discussion as it only adds to the aberration being conveyed.
Now, to address you statements. You are as guilty as those, or should I say that you are as hell bent as those or better yet, you manipulate scripture as much as… get the point? We call that being a hypocrite. But worry not, I’ve been one myself and may even be one now without even knowing it. That’s the beauty of being a hypocrite, we rarely know that we are being one.
Anyway, my time has expired (and only halfway down the list)
Would you like to discuss scripture and theology or would you enjoy this banter back and forth of stifled opinion? If it is the later, then we shall continue on this path barring the mod’s don’t give us a warning or lock the thread. If it be the first option, then let us commence in a way that is conducive to good logic. Here is what I would suggest.
1. Let us stick to one topic at a time and not hop around as if we were on a bunny trail.
2. A direct question deserves a direct answer.
3. Questions need to be asked in an orderly fashion.
Now, would you be so kind to tell me directly what is wrong with this statement and answer my three questions.
The Trinity states that there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.
our??
Hebrew Trinity
Oneness (Achdut) - In the Shema we read, “Shema Yisrael (Hear, 0 Israel): Adonai Eloheinu (the Lord our Gods), Adonai Echad (the Lord is one). Interestingly, the word echad in Hebrew can imply a unity in diversity (the word for one and only one, i.e., unique, is more often rendered as yachid). For example, in Exodus 26:6 the parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that “it shall be one (echad) tabernacle,†and Ezekiel spoke of two “sticks†(representing fragmented Israel) as being reunited into one:
“and they shall be one (echad) stick in My hand†(Ezekiel 37:19). Moses also uses echad in Genesis 2:24 when he says: “And they (husband and wife) will become one flesh (basar echad).â€Â
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Man consists of a Body, a Soul and a Spirit. Yet are we one? Or are we three?
It is interesting to note that in Exodus 26:6 the parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that “it shall be one (echad) tabernacle,â€Â
Three seperate areas all designates to serve in different areas, yet one entity never the less. Yes, the outer court, the inner court and the inner most place. Three, yet one. Still further, the book of Hebrews tells us that the tabernacle was but a copy of heavenly things...
1. Am I simply a body, or do I have a body?
2. Am I simply a Soul, or do I have a soul?
3. Am I simply a Spirit, or do I have a spirit?
I think that Free did an excellent job refuting your post and thus, there is little need for me to directly respond to your post. However, I would like to set my sights on you for a moment and expose how silly you are actually being as you rant your anti catholic rhetoric.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Think about this. I believe the principal applies…
Simply put, your assumption is not only incomplete, but it is incorrect as well.
Actually, I stumbled across my understanding of the trinity by sheer accident. I was not seeking it, it simply popped out of scripture one day. I find it ironic that you did not respond to my last post directly. Stop sidestepping the issue with rhetoric and stay focused and we might get this resolved.
I have nothing to prove, but much to share. It is a shame when we wretched people come together as a group and abuse scripture to such a degree, that we loose it’s meaning out of sheer fear of being associated with another evil group... (tongue in cheek humor here). But to break things down a bit. Tri means three, ity means quality, in means to encapsulate. In essence, we have the quality of three encapsulated into one… Dictionary.com uses this definition.
Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.
Notice the word theology… This word is not in the Bible either, yet our very understanding of God is shown through our theology from an intellectual and emotional perspective. Suspect all you want, it doesn’t change the reality.
I am not forcing anything on you. Get rid of your baggage as it must weigh you down as clearly shown in the angst of your posts. Psychologists would call your remarks displaced anger and you must know that it is not good for you. We really need to eliminate all the pronouns out of this discussion as it only adds to the aberration being conveyed.
Now, to address you statements. You are as guilty as those, or should I say that you are as hell bent as those or better yet, you manipulate scripture as much as… get the point? We call that being a hypocrite. But worry not, I’ve been one myself and may even be one now without even knowing it. That’s the beauty of being a hypocrite, we rarely know that we are being one.
Anyway, my time has expired (and only halfway down the list)
Would you like to discuss scripture and theology or would you enjoy this banter back and forth of stifled opinion? If it is the later, then we shall continue on this path barring the mod’s don’t give us a warning or lock the thread. If it be the first option, then let us commence in a way that is conducive to good logic. Here is what I would suggest.
1. Let us stick to one topic at a time and not hop around as if we were on a bunny trail.
2. A direct question deserves a direct answer.
3. Questions need to be asked in an orderly fashion.
Now, would you be so kind to tell me directly what is wrong with this statement and answer my three questions.
The Trinity states that there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.
our??
Hebrew Trinity
Oneness (Achdut) - In the Shema we read, “Shema Yisrael (Hear, 0 Israel): Adonai Eloheinu (the Lord our Gods), Adonai Echad (the Lord is one). Interestingly, the word echad in Hebrew can imply a unity in diversity (the word for one and only one, i.e., unique, is more often rendered as yachid). For example, in Exodus 26:6 the parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that “it shall be one (echad) tabernacle,†and Ezekiel spoke of two “sticks†(representing fragmented Israel) as being reunited into one:
“and they shall be one (echad) stick in My hand†(Ezekiel 37:19). Moses also uses echad in Genesis 2:24 when he says: “And they (husband and wife) will become one flesh (basar echad).â€Â
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Man consists of a Body, a Soul and a Spirit. Yet are we one? Or are we three?
It is interesting to note that in Exodus 26:6 the parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that “it shall be one (echad) tabernacle,â€Â
Three seperate areas all designates to serve in different areas, yet one entity never the less. Yes, the outer court, the inner court and the inner most place. Three, yet one. Still further, the book of Hebrews tells us that the tabernacle was but a copy of heavenly things...
1. Am I simply a body, or do I have a body?
2. Am I simply a Soul, or do I have a soul?
3. Am I simply a Spirit, or do I have a spirit?
S
Sothenes
Guest
2 Peter says there is a Person called the Father, and he's God. And Acts chapter 5 says there is a person called the Spirit and he's God.
And John 1 says there is a person called the Word and he's God.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."-John 1:1
"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God."-Acts 5:3-4
I was reading in my Bible, "Then the LORD (YHVH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHVH) out of heaven;"-Genesis 19:24
I know from the previous chapter that it says,"I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."-Genesis 18:21 If he went down then how can he rain fire from heaven?
And John 1 says there is a person called the Word and he's God.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."-John 1:1
"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God."-Acts 5:3-4
I was reading in my Bible, "Then the LORD (YHVH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHVH) out of heaven;"-Genesis 19:24
I know from the previous chapter that it says,"I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."-Genesis 18:21 If he went down then how can he rain fire from heaven?
T
thessalonian
Guest
Sorry, they are not Christians. You can't call God a chimpanzee and still be a Christian. You have to know who he is. I don't care if you don't beleive in the word trinity. But if you reject the heart of the doctrine you do not know who God is and have made your own god who is not a god. Sorry. It's just a simple fact. Either you or I are not a Christian because one or both of us do not know who god is. It is you however who believes that you can figure out who God is all by yourself. Calculating him from scripture. You can not.
You seem to be hung up on this pagan thing. Got news for you. There are things that are related to paganism in the Bible. Paul quotes pagan sages. He also uses a pagan god to explain Christ to the athenians. Peter uses a pagan word for hell. The three wise men are pagans. That some pagan terminology is used to explain God in terms that the newly converted gentile Christians could understand is not what you make it out to be. They did not have minds of Jews. They thought differently and so pagan terms were incorporated in to the Christian vocabulary. Heck you even have them incorporated in to your own vocabulary. The days of the week and months of the year are pagan. Many other things you don't even realize. Catholic baggage I suppose. Are you going to start using the biblical terms "first day of the week, second day..."? I doudt it.
stovebolts
Member
<<Bump>>
Imagician,
I'm waiting for your biblical opinion, errr
: .. I meant response.. :angel: Will you, can you directly respond to this piece by piece? We can break it down to Hebrew and greek if you want :wink:
Imagician,
I'm waiting for your biblical opinion, errr
: .. I meant response.. :angel: Will you, can you directly respond to this piece by piece? We can break it down to Hebrew and greek if you want :wink: StoveBolts said:
G
gingercat
Guest
Stove,
I have moved to another same kind of thread and will not respond to this anymore.
Thanks. :D
I have moved to another same kind of thread and will not respond to this anymore.
Thanks. :D
G
Gendou Ikari
Guest
Well, since the Holy Ghost is omnipresent, God is technically in everything even the Adversary. And being, "in" the way you mean it follows the same principle.
stovebolts
Member
gingercat said:
Don't be so vain sis, I was not addressing you, I was addressing Imagician.
But, since you did respond, would you like to state where my previous post is in err? Specifically that is without needless commentary?
G
gingercat
Guest
StoveBolts said:
Stove, why all of a sudden, your posts have become so touchy?
I already reponded to your posts. You did not respond to mine.
I said I will not repond anymore because I started this thread. I was only trying to be courteous.
stovebolts
Member
Why am I so touchy? Because both you and Imagician have no intention of doing any serious study of scripture. Both of you are extreemly weak in scripture (coming from me, that's sad as I admit that I am weak in scripture) but bold in worldly opinion and quite franlkly, your opinion / conviction is just that and holds very little authority in the scriptures.
Point blank, I'm loosing my patience while both of you bunny hop from one topic to the next intermingling your agenda's all over this forum without taking any accountability or resolving any issues what so ever.
I challenge both you and Imagician to a serious debate on the Trinity. A debate rich in scripture and lacking in both opinion based on emotions or worldly knowledge.
Think about it. I will be back on Monday. I doubt you can break my below argument into pieces and devalue them using scripture alone.
So? Are either of you up to the challenge? If so, start by answering the three questions stated above.
Cheers.
Point blank, I'm loosing my patience while both of you bunny hop from one topic to the next intermingling your agenda's all over this forum without taking any accountability or resolving any issues what so ever.
I challenge both you and Imagician to a serious debate on the Trinity. A debate rich in scripture and lacking in both opinion based on emotions or worldly knowledge.
Think about it. I will be back on Monday. I doubt you can break my below argument into pieces and devalue them using scripture alone.
StoveBolts said:
So? Are either of you up to the challenge? If so, start by answering the three questions stated above.
Cheers.
G
gingercat
Guest
StoveBolts said:
Those verses have nothing to do with my OP and my point is that Jesus is God's first creation. You cannot refute it with those verses.
How about the verses I listed up? You don't have anything to refute them!!!!
BTW, you don't seem to be reading any of my verses I quoted. If you are, you could not be listing those verses.
Those silly questions you are asking have nothing to do with the topic. Please don't start your usual beating- around- the- bush debate.
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
Do you believe the correct translation should be "Gods" then? If not, what is your point?
Only when it is understood in the context of the subject that you are talking about one (i.e.) "group" of things. Echad appears over 900 times in the OT and, in an overwhelming number of instances, refers to an INDIVIDUAL person, place, or thing.
Yachid only appears 12 times in the scripture and carries with it a connotation of "forsakeness" or desolation", which is why it is used so seldomly. Can we imagine that the normative word for a single or individual thing would only be used 12 times in the entire OT? That only 12 times in almost 1000 pages of text a truly single/individual item was referred to, since "yachid" is supposedly the correct term? There is a perfect word to describe a truly individual thing and that word is ECHAD, used in that manner around 800 times.
Trinitarian deception. They look for exceptions to the usage of a word then imply that that is the usual connotation. Ask any kindergarten kid in Israel what echad is and they will hold up one finger. Echad is the number one in Hebrew. Of course it can apply to one group as well as it operates the same way our word "one" does. But "one" carries no implication of plurality in and of itself. Ancient or modern Hebrews would scoff at the thought that the word echad, used of God, implies any suggestion of plurality of "person" in God. Even some Trinitarian scholars have now distanced themselves from the argument you employ. Get with the program.
C
ChristineES
Guest
gingercat said:
That was Wisdom Solomon was talking about. All those quotes are about Wisdom. Are you saying that Jesus is Wisdom? He is The Word of God (John, Chapter 1, verse 1), although he had wisdom, it says nowhere that He is Wisdom.
G
gingercat
Guest
ChristineES said:
What is the proof of your claim?
C
ChristineES
Guest
gingercat said:
Right here, the beginning of Proverbs, chapter 8 that you did not post. (verses 1-21);
Pro 8:1 Does not wisdom call? And does not understanding put forth her voice?
Pro 8:2 She stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the path.
Pro 8:3 She cries in the gates, before the entrance of the city, at the doors.
Pro 8:4 To you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
Pro 8:5 O simple ones, understand wisdom; and, fools, be of an understanding heart.
Pro 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
Pro 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is hateful to my lips.
Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; nothing twisted or perverse is in them.
Pro 8:9 They are all plain to him who understands, and right to those who find knowledge.
Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Pro 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Pro 8:12 I, wisdom, dwell with sense, and find out knowledge of discretions.
Pro 8:13 The fear of Jehovah is to hate evil; I hate pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the wicked mouth.
Pro 8:14 Counsel and sound wisdom are mine; I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign and princes decree justice.
Pro 8:16 Princes rule by me, and nobles, all the judges of the earth.
Pro 8:17 I love those who love me; and those who seek me early shall find me.
Pro 8:18 Riches and honor are with me; enduring riches and righteousness.
Pro 8:19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and what I give is better than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment;
Pro 8:21 I may cause those who love me to inherit riches; and I will fill their treasuries.
I
Imagican
Guest
StoveBolts said:
Simply put, your assumption is not only incomplete, but it is incorrect as well.
I see that you dispute my offering with nothing other than a statement that it was wrong. Again, you obviously made this post simply to argue rather than 'offer' anything of consequence.
Actually, I stumbled across my understanding of the trinity by sheer accident. I was not seeking it, it simply popped out of scripture one day. I find it ironic that you did not respond to my last post directly. Stop sidestepping the issue with rhetoric and stay focused and we might get this resolved.
No comment.
I haven't responded to your 'last post' because I have been busy and don't appreciate your insinuation that I 'side-stepped' anything. Stove, take a deep breath and count to ten, otherwise your true colors may begin to show and you know you don't want that to happen now do ya? he he he.[/color]
I have nothing to prove, but much to share. It is a shame when we wretched people come together as a group and abuse scripture to such a degree, that we loose it’s meaning out of sheer fear of being associated with another evil group... (tongue in cheek humor here). But to break things down a bit. Tri means three, ity means quality, in means to encapsulate. In essence, we have the quality of three encapsulated into one… Dictionary.com uses this definition.
Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.
Notice the word theology… This word is not in the Bible either, yet our very understanding of God is shown through our theology from an intellectual and emotional perspective. Suspect all you want, it doesn’t change the reality.
Oh, but you obviously do. You were trying then and you are trying now to 'prove' this 'trinity'.
Sharing is irrelevant if not down-right harmful if not done through wholesome words and a sense of edification for those it is offered. And I agree with the abuse issue, so, be careful.
If you can't use the Bible as the 'proof' of what you say then it is of NO accord. And Stove, I fear NOTHING other than the rebuke of the Lord. I certainly don't 'fear' being associated with ANYTHING or ANYONE. I simply don't choose to follow them either unless they are in lined with the 'truth'.
And NO, your attempt at masking the creation of this word 'trinity' is NOT something that I'll let you mislead others into believing. It IS of pagan origin and didn't even exist in Christianity until introduced by those that already used this concept and word in their previous pagan ritual.
Stove, you intellectualize or emotionalize all you want my friend, it doesn't alter reality either.
I am not forcing anything on you. Get rid of your baggage as it must weigh you down as clearly shown in the angst of your posts. Psychologists would call your remarks displaced anger and you must know that it is not good for you. We really need to eliminate all the pronouns out of this discussion as it only adds to the aberration being conveyed.
Now, to address you statements. You are as guilty as those, or should I say that you are as hell bent as those or better yet, you manipulate scripture as much as… get the point? We call that being a hypocrite. But worry not, I’ve been one myself and may even be one now without even knowing it. That’s the beauty of being a hypocrite, we rarely know that we are being one.
Another nice one Stove, you accuse others of side-stepping, yet that is exactly how you started this paragraph. You KNOW as well as I how 'trinitarians' view this doctrine. I am quite sure that you are also aware of what the Catholic Church put people through for hundreds upon hundreds of years over it. I didn't direct the statement that I made at you. It was a generalized statement concerning the credence placed upon 'trinity' by ALL who accept it.
Yeah Stove, I am an angry man with displaced anger. I would have never understood my problems in this life if it were not for those like yourself that care enough to help me understand. Sorry, my friend, but don't expect me to pay you for this session of 'psyco-analizing'. I do appreciate your concern for my mental well-being though.
And NO, Stove, I am NOT a hypocrite for the 'reason' that you have offered. I have created NOTHING. I simply offer that the 'creation' is NOT scriptural nor EVER offered by Christ or His apostles.
And, I think that you have made a monumental effort in the exposing of your 'true' self and I thank you for that. It always helps to really know who one is dealing with in matters of faith. I have NOT altered or changed my stance once on the matter of this subject. It is clearly known by all who have followed my posts in the threads that deal with such. I have stated over and over that I harbor NO ill will for ANY Catholic on this PLANET. I simply disagree with their doctrine and have done my best to expose the 'creation' of 'trinity'. Fault me if you will, and vent your anger as you see fit. But please don't accuse me of anything that I am NOT.
Anyway, my time has expired (and only halfway down the list)
Would you like to discuss scripture and theology or would you enjoy this banter back and forth of stifled opinion? If it is the later, then we shall continue on this path barring the mod’s don’t give us a warning or lock the thread. If it be the first option, then let us commence in a way that is conducive to good logic. Here is what I would suggest.
1. Let us stick to one topic at a time and not hop around as if we were on a bunny trail.
2. A direct question deserves a direct answer.
3. Questions need to be asked in an orderly fashion.
I have yet to be 'told' by anyone how i am to offer what I do, other than the rules of the forums themselves, but, to answer your question; yes, I will do my best.
Now, would you be so kind to tell me directly what is wrong with this statement and answer my three questions.
The Trinity states that there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
This again is as misleading as could be made possible. That is ONLY a tit of what the doctrine of 'trinity' states.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.
our??
And to claim that you have a 'better' understanding of 'exactly' WHO 'our' is would be to offer NOTHING but your own personal speculation. NO ONE knows exactly what this means.
Hebrew Trinity
Oneness (Achdut) - In the Shema we read, “Shema Yisrael (Hear, 0 Israel): Adonai Eloheinu (the Lord our Gods), Adonai Echad (the Lord is one). Interestingly, the word echad in Hebrew can imply a unity in diversity (the word for one and only one, i.e., unique, is more often rendered as yachid). For example, in Exodus 26:6 the parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that “it shall be one (echad) tabernacle,†and Ezekiel spoke of two “sticks†(representing fragmented Israel) as being reunited into one:
“and they shall be one (echad) stick in My hand†(Ezekiel 37:19). Moses also uses echad in Genesis 2:24 when he says: “And they (husband and wife) will become one flesh (basar echad).â€Â
I'll not debate a single word of this for i have no knowledge of much of what you speak. I'll try to make a brief study of it, but don't be dismayed if I don't get around to it anytime soon.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Man consists of a Body, a Soul and a Spirit. Yet are we one? Or are we three?
Nope. But we are also a number of other things too but we'll save this for my time is running short. But I would like to add that when a man takes a wife that they become ONE. Are they really a four armed, two headed creature though? Are they 'really' one, or is this simply a term used to indicate the 'oneness' of purpose rather than an actual 'oneness' of 'being'?
It is interesting to note that in Exodus 26:6 the parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that “it shall be one (echad) tabernacle,â€Â
Three seperate areas all designates to serve in different areas, yet one entity never the less. Yes, the outer court, the inner court and the inner most place. Three, yet one. Still further, the book of Hebrews tells us that the tabernacle was but a copy of heavenly things...
Interesting, no doubt, but to speculate as to it's relation to 'trinity' is NOTHING more than that, pure speculation.
1. Am I simply a body, or do I have a body?
2. Am I simply a Soul, or do I have a soul?
3. Am I simply a Spirit, or do I have a spirit?[/quote:af295]
If these are the three questions, I am confused as to their purpose but will 'play the game' any way.
1. NO, I suppose
2. NO, I hope.
3. NO, again, I hope.
Stove, my friend, I do NOT 'hate' ANYONE. I fear the damage that can be done to those that follow 'false doctrine'. My love for my brothers and sisters insists that I do what I am capable of to warn them. If you feel that I am wrong that is your choice. I am simply trying to assert mine.
I have studied 'trinity' enough to understand it's 'creation'. I 'believe' that I KNOW it's purpose. For the sake of those that cling to this belief, I will keep that to myself, for mine is NOT to attack my brothers and sisters in Christ, but mine is CERTAINLY to offer that which I understand. I would NOT deny you this respect, why would you choose to deny it to me?
I don't know where you are going but I hope it's on a vacation and the stress of what it takes to prepare for one is the 'reason' for this 'seeming' attack against me personally. Perhaps when you return much of the pressure will have been released and we may continue to discuss issues of importance with each other like the 'brothers' that I hope you know that we are.
Love ya brother.
MEC
For those that have been following this thread, I want to apologize to anyone that may have read certain statements that I have edited out of this post. I had no right to say such things and they have been recanted. If you know what I'm talking about please forgive me. For those that don't know what I am talking about, all I can say is this is 'good' for I would NOT like to allow my stupidity to ba a representative of my will towards the good people here.
G
gingercat
Guest
ChristineES said:
Your interpretation doesn't go along with these:
Col 1:15
Supremacy of Christ
"He is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation.
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together, And he is the head of the boy, the Church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everthingFhe might have the supremacy. for God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
Do I need to continue?