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Jesus and His Father are not the same Person

I am sorry for my ignorance, but you have lost me. Does that somehow say that Jesus is wisdom?

I am done with this thread. I have said my peace, and now I move on to another discussion.
See you in another thread. :wink:

One last thought, doesn't you said say that Jesus is God? That is what I thought.
 
Christine,

It is very easy for some of us to grasp that Jesus Christ is MOST CERTAINLY a "part" of God. No doubt. But, 'trinity' insist that Jesus IS God. Now, what could possibly take ANYTHING away from Christ that is HIS, by accepting and worshiping Him as God's SON? If God empowered Christ to do that which He has done, how can I be blamed for offering anything other than what Christ Himself offered? Christ NEVER claimed to BE GOD. Of course, scripture can be twisted to 'indicate' otherwise, but the 'truth' is that Christ NEVER, NO, NOT ONCE, did He claim to BE GOD.

And it takes quite a stretch of the imagination to make Him so. Jesus expressly stated over and over again that He was/IS the Son of God. Now who must change these words in order to create their doctrine? Not I, for I simply accept Christ for who He TOLD us He IS. There is a Father, there is a Son and there is the Holy Spirit. But, these are NOT interchangeable. We are to worship ONE GOD AS GOD. No more, no less. We have ONE SON, OUR SAVIOR.

Christ Himself stated that His power CAME FROM GOD. He states that He was SENT BY GOD. For there to be a son, there has to be a 'creator' of this Son. Whether He be created a trillion years ago, or ten thousand, or two thousand, this makes NO difference whatsoever. But for there to be a Son, there MUST be a 'creator' of such.

I believe that what ginger has offered is the Word. The word refereing to it in these passages is 'wisdom'. Now, for those that would think this 'silly', tell me this: what IS wisdom? Figure that one out and you will easily be able to see that very easily this 'wisdom' could have been the Word of God. Hence, since in the beginning was the Word.......................
 
Besides being what I believe, this is the truth.

My Heavenly Father is God. Jesus my redeemer, God’s Son is the Word of God. The Holy Spirit that dwells within and has given me life, is the Spirit of God.

I can’t understand why Trinitarians want to exclude those like me from the body of Christ solely because of not believing that God exists in three persons. And when did Jesus say even anything remotely like, “you must believe that I am God and that the Holy Spirit is God in order to inherit eternal life.â€Â

If it was so important – and obviously to the Trinitarians it is the crux of the matter – why did Jesus not state it?
But what was it that Jesus said? “You must be born again.†And what was the explanation given by Jesus to Nicodemus about this? “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.â€Â

I would suggest that whoever wants to know the criteria for being born again, for being a Christian, should go and learn what this means.

Sadly it is almost as though a line has been drawn. On one side, those who want to believe in the trinity endeavour to exclude those who don’t, from the kingdom. And on the other side, those like myself who have been given eternal life by God grace through Christ, dare not say that this one or that cannot know God as we.

So I ask myself, why is this? Why do some place obstacles before people in order to prevent them from entering the kingdom of God? And why do others who know God’s grace, not do this?
 
Agreed Mutz.

And Stove, I look forward to your return and YES, by ALL means, I, for one, am 'up' to your challenge.

But, not only will I be offering 'scripture' to back up my claims, I will be offering 'history' as well. So come prepared my friend.

And thanks Brad, for your offering.

And guys, I hope that all who question this doctrine, and all who either accept or deny it will join us in our 'little debate'. It should prove 'quite' interesting.

Until then, Stove, God Bless and a safe return Stove.

MEC
 
Of course they are not the same person.

However, Trinitrians do like to use slippery words to claim all three together are also one person. Thats the three person = one person God who keeps referring to himself as "I."

The response is predicatable. Whip out the word "being" and see where it goes ferya.
 
mutzrein said:
SpiritualSon said:
Test
Click to expand...

How many questions?
Click to expand...

mutzrein,
God is one in Person and in Essence.
The Father and Son are the Soul and Body of Jesus Christ, and this makes one Divine Person. Jehovah God the Father became a Person, under the name Jesus Christ. The Divine, which is the Father, took on a Human. Jesus said, no one has seen the Father nor know His form.

Harry :fadein:
 
SpiritualSon said:
mutzrein said:
SpiritualSon said:
Test
Click to expand...

How many questions?
Click to expand...

mutzrein,
God is one in Person and in Essence.
The Father and Son are the Soul and Body of Jesus Christ, and this makes one Divine Person. Jehovah God the Father became a Person, under the name Jesus Christ. The Divine, which is the Father, took on a Human. Jesus said, no one has seen the Father nor know His form.

Harry :fadein:
Click to expand...

Here is another clear identifications of God and Jesus;

Matt 3:l6-l7 "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

I moved to similar thread, I hope you join us :D
 
Gingercat, you're missing the point. Did you read the links that Nocturnal provided explaining the concept of the trinity?

I agree with you that God the Father and Jesus are seperate, but that doesn't mean that Jesus isn't God.
 
Here are some verses from the New Testament. These are not to convince anyone to prove that Jesus is God, or an angel, or a Created Being. They are just some various things Jesus said about the father in The Gospels. It is important that we remember what Jesus taught us about The Father.
You know what I believe, if you have read my posts in this thread, I am not going to repeat myself. God is The Father, and His rules apply. They are very important!!

Mat 5:45 In this way you show that you are children of your Father in heaven. He makes his sun rise on people whether they are good or evil. He lets rain fall on them whether they are just or unjust.

Mat 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask Him?

Mat 10:20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered to Me by My Father. And no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

Mar 8:38 Therefore whoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My Words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man shall also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
 
Listen to what you people have bought into:


God number one = The Father

God number two = The Son

God number threee = The Spirit

Now if I add this up I DO NOT get three in one, I simply get 'three'. I don't know about you guys, but I think I learned in first grade what one plus one plus one equals. So, regardless of your Roman mathematics, I 'still' get three.
 
It is not exactly like that. All people have three parts. We have a body. We have a mind. We have a spirit. Each of these things is US. It is not anyone else. People who believe in the Trinity believe that God is the same, as we are made in God's image. God has a body, God has a mind, God has a spirit. God's mind would be The Father, his body (or The Word of God) is The Son, and His Spirit, The Holy Spirit. God created us. If a man makes an android, that android would not ever be as good as a human, in the same way we are not as good as God.

An explanation would be this, my body would not do anything that my mind would not tell it to. Jesus says He does what The Father does can be explained by the same reasoning. There are a lot of things that my spirit would do, if my body could do those things. Jesus could do what His Spirit told him to.

That would also explain the statement about Jesus being at the right side of God. Jesus, as The Word of God, would and could appear that it is separate, but in reality it is not. Just as my voice moves away from my body as I speak.

It is hard for me to explain, since I don't completely understand it, and cannot comprehend everything God is.
 
And see how distinctly you have accepting the teaching of the word, Word. Your teachers have taught you that THE Word is simply Christ. Funny, but if the Word were NOTHING more or less than Christ Himself, why use the word Word? If there is NOT a specific meaning of this Word, why was it used? Ever thought about that? Of course not. You were taught that the Word IS Christ and shown how it 'fits' into 'trinity' and that was that.

OBVIOUSLY, the Word is something other than Christ Himself. Georges explanation makes PERFECT sense. Perhaps the Word 'became' Christ, but obviously the two are NOT meant to be synonymous.

Christine, I ask you the same question that I have asked over and over again of others: Who taught you that God IS a 'trinity'? Be honest now. I am curious and don't ask this simply to be facetious.
 
Imagican said:
Listen to what you people have bought into:


God number one = The Father

God number two = The Son

God number threee = The Spirit

Now if I add this up I DO NOT get three in one, I simply get 'three'. I don't know about you guys, but I think I learned in first grade what one plus one plus one equals. So, regardless of your Roman mathematics, I 'still' get three.
Click to expand...

Uh.....don't forget, if the Father and the Son are one, and we are one with the Father and Son....then we are God also.....Is Pauline Christianity Polythestic?
 
Georges said:
Imagican said:
Listen to what you people have bought into:


God number one = The Father

God number two = The Son

God number threee = The Spirit

Now if I add this up I DO NOT get three in one, I simply get 'three'. I don't know about you guys, but I think I learned in first grade what one plus one plus one equals. So, regardless of your Roman mathematics, I 'still' get three.
Click to expand...

Uh.....don't forget, if the Father and the Son are one, and we are one with the Father and Son....then we are God also.....Is Pauline Christianity Polythestic?
Click to expand...
 
Georges said:
Uh.....don't forget, if the Father and the Son are one, and we are one with the Father and Son....then we are God also.....Is Pauline Christianity Polythestic?
Click to expand...

Thank you for showing us our blind spot, George :-D
 
Jesus just isn't The Word, He is The Word of God. You know it true, it is a direct quote from John.

Whether you believe Jesus is God, or if you believe that God created Jesus in the womb of Mary you know that He is The Word of God.

As for who first taught me The Trinity. The first time I heard of it was by a minister of the Church I had just joined back when I became a Christian. I have had time to go around it, to study the scriptures. To be perfectly honest, I am not 100% sure of the Trinity. I do, however, believe that Jesus is God. There is only one God, and Jesus was God come down to Earth as an infant and as "The Son of Man". I have evidence that Jesus is God, but very little for The Trinity.
Now I have said it. I have admitted for the first time what I truly believe.
 
Imagican said:
Listen to what you people have bought into:


God number one = The Father

God number two = The Son

God number threee = The Spirit

Now if I add this up I DO NOT get three in one, I simply get 'three'. I don't know about you guys, but I think I learned in first grade what one plus one plus one equals. So, regardless of your Roman mathematics, I 'still' get three.
Click to expand...

1 X 1 X 1 = 1
 
Imagican said:
Christine,

It is very easy for some of us to grasp that Jesus Christ is MOST CERTAINLY a "part" of God. No doubt. But, 'trinity' insist that Jesus IS God. Now, what could possibly take ANYTHING away from Christ that is HIS, by accepting and worshiping Him as God's SON? If God empowered Christ to do that which He has done, how can I be blamed for offering anything other than what Christ Himself offered? Christ NEVER claimed to BE GOD. Of course, scripture can be twisted to 'indicate' otherwise, but the 'truth' is that Christ NEVER, NO, NOT ONCE, did He claim to BE GOD.
Click to expand...

Who wrote the law? Jehovah or Jesus?

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"-John 10:34
 
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