Jesus as co-Creator

[stovebolts]

We were created by a living and loving God that wants NOTHING more than for us to share His love

This is the core theology behind the doctrine of Trinity... It was this perfect union between Father, Son and Holy Spirit that creation began... From God's desire to share his love, which is love, man was created holy in their image, in a holy land for the purpose of communion.

Love requires something to love for to love oneself, is vanity. YHVH is not vain... Instead, God, being Love (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) out of that great love did what love does and continues to do... it shares that love.

Peace and grace.

 

[samuel]

I do believe that teacher who made the statement, that we only have a limited knowledge was PAUL.

1Co:13:9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co:13:10: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co:13:11: When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co:13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And I do believe the last time I saw this statement, "we CAN be 'like God' RIGHT NOW". was made in the Garden of Eden, substituting the we! for you! of course. Seems like Kennith Copland also said something like this, a complete Heresy.

 

[BFSmith764]

I do believe that teacher who made the statement, that we only have a limited knowledge was PAUL.

1Co:13:9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co:13:10: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co:13:11: When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co:13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And I do believe the last time I saw this statement, "we CAN be 'like God' RIGHT NOW". was made in the Garden of Eden, substituting the we! for you! of course. Seems like Kennith Copland also said something like this, a complete Heresy.

To a certain extent they were already like God; God made them in His image and likeness. Satan the great deceiver deceived them into believing that God was holding out on them. But the truth is that if they had remained true to God's command, they would once they ate of the tree of life be truly and completely be like God. But then again, that's for another topic......now back to the topic at hand. :D

 

[Imagican]

I do believe that teacher who made the statement, that we only have a limited knowledge was PAUL.

1Co:13:9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co:13:10: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co:13:11: When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co:13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And I do believe the last time I saw this statement, "we CAN be 'like God' RIGHT NOW". was made in the Garden of Eden, substituting the we! for you! of course. Seems like Kennith Copland also said something like this, a complete Heresy.

Thank you BF.

Samuel,

you will hear no such principles as those offered through ministries such as KC offered by me. What I offered was NOTHING more than WE WERE created IN the image of God Himself. Now, when we are ABLE to come to an accurate understanding of WHAT that image IS, then we are able to see and accept that which has been offered. But you will NOT hear ME offer that YOU or anyone ELSE is able to COMMAND 'anything FROM God'. But what we have BEEN GIVEN is OURS.

Paul WAS a VERY humble man considering the KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING that he possessed. While his offering was a humble inclusion of himself in that which he offered for the SAKE of humility, he had BEEN shown that which FEW will ever see in the FLESH.

When that which is perfect is COME is NOT in reference to a literal 'arrival' of ANYTHING but TRUTH. That WHEN we are ABLE to come TO the truth, then that which we FIRST believed WILL be 'done away with and UTTERLY replaced' with the NEW. And Samuel. I can offer you the ANSWER to these words of Paul. They are NOT in reference to SOME mystery that is unobtainable RIGHT NOW. They are in reference to that which IS able to be obtained. And for FREE, right this very moment I am going to GIVE you this answer. I don't expect you to accept it but the 'planting of the seed' is enough for ME.

When that which is perfect comes is in reference to UNDERSTANDING PERIOD. And THIS understanding IS the purpose of OUR existence and the REASON that God chooses to SHARE Himself with US. And ONCE this understanding is REALIZED, all that PRECEEDED it WILL be 'done away with'. It has to DO with ONE THING. For NOW, we see through a glass DARKLY, (here is the FIRST clue, what IS God? Those that DON'T know God ARE IN DARKNESS), but THEN face to face, (this is WHAT HAPPENS when we BEGIN to KNOW God, NOT in another life other than this one, but BEING 'born again IN SPIRIT in THIS life), NOW I know in PART, (for that is where ALL of us ARE BEFORE coming to God), but then shall I know even as also I am known, (here's the CLENCHER; WHEN we COME to God, and UNDERSTAND WHO God IS, THEN were are ABLE to KNOW God as HE ALREADY KNOWS US).

Now Samuel, HERE'S THE answer. This ENTIRE offering concerns ONE principle and ONE principle alone. NO, it's NOT about a LATER life, it's about ANOTHER LIFE. One that is Spiritual rather than carnal. A question FIRST and THEN the answer that YOU WILL ALREADY KNOW when you ANSWER the question; What is the difference between THIS carnal life that we live BEFORE coming to God through Christ and that which exists THEN, AFTER being 'born again'? What IS God. What CAN we BE as well?

The answer Samuel is LOVE. That is the TOTAL purpose of God's interaction with man. That is the TOTAL purpose of OUR creation. Love and the SHARING of it with God and our neighbors. NOW, go back and SEE if this is NOT what Paul is offering. WHEN we come to an ACTUAL understanding of TRUE love, then that which we THOUGHT was love in the beginning WILL be 'done away' with. For what the CARNAL flesh THINKS of love is WHAT benefits the FLESH; SELF love. But WHEN we come to the TRUTH of love, then that which we FIRST believed to BE love will be done away with. And WHEN we are ABLE to come to an UNDERSTANDING of love, THEN and ONLY then are we ABLE to KNOW God as HE ALREADY KNOWS US.

You have JUST received revelation that goes BEYOND your 'Matthew Henry' commentary. You have gone BEYOND what MOST pastors would teach you. You have JUST been offered revelation of EXACTLY what Paul was offering. Read it,

If you DOUBT it, read what PRECEEDS these words. And if you STILL are unable to COME to an understanding as offered, let me know and I WILL SHOW YOU where this is PROVEN in scripture contained within OTHER verses.

But I BELIEVE that YOU WILL understand it. For I don't BELIEVE that this was offered by YOU as a 'random' statement. I believe that YOU are SEEKING the TRUTH and CAN see it when it is made UTTERLY apparent THROUGH truth and manifest THROUGH The Spirit.

Blessings, my brother and I HOPE that my words have been able to offer edification not ONLY to YOU, but to ALL that will read them.

MEC

 

[Free]

Now Samuel, HERE'S THE answer. This ENTIRE offering concerns ONE principle and ONE principle alone....The answer Samuel is LOVE. That is the TOTAL purpose of God's interaction with man. That is the TOTAL purpose of OUR creation.

Love is not the total purpose of man's creation but it does undermine your understanding of the nature of God.

 

[BFSmith764]

Now Samuel, HERE'S THE answer. This ENTIRE offering concerns ONE principle and ONE principle alone....The answer Samuel is LOVE. That is the TOTAL purpose of God's interaction with man. That is the TOTAL purpose of OUR creation.

Love is not the total purpose of man's creation but it does undermine your understanding of the nature of God.

I do believe that Imagican is correct, because what God desires is to share in the same relationship that the Father and the Son had with each other before time began; its a deep and intimate and loving relationship that only they know and can understand, and He desires that we join them in that relationship. God is holding nothing back from us; we are destined to become as one with the Father as the Son is one with the Father, and even now we are one with Him, though it at this point in time does not seem so.

Here is what Jesus said to Paul when he was before his conversion persecuting the Church; notice carfully what Jesus said.

Acts 22:7-8 (ESV)
7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' 8 And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.'

Jesus could have said, why are you persecuting my Church? Or why are you persecuting my people? No, but He said, "Why are you persecuting me?" Whatever happens to us God is experiencing it as well. Not that God's feels physical pain, but emotionally He is going through what we go through....He lives in us and we live in Him….this is the most intimate kind of relationship that only God and us through the Holy Spirit can have. No other created being will ever have such a relationship…..not any of the angels, only us.

 

[Free]

Love is a part, not the whole. God is love but he is also holy. So our purpose must be more than just to love God it must include his holiness. The answer is found in the worship of God.

 

[BFSmith764]

Love is a part, not the whole. God is love but he is also holy. So our purpose must be more than just to love God it must include his holiness. The answer is found in the worship of God.

Love is what makes God Holy; as the scripture says, God is Love. Everything about God is Love....but its not human love its divine Love.

 

[Imagican]

BF,

You are indeed an insightful and wise individual. I thank you for your offering and recognize the edification towards ALL that has been offered.

Free,

ALL the LAW and ALL the prophets hang on THESE TWO: Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as YOURSELF. These are NOT my words but those offered BY Jesus Christ.

When we break down these words INTO understanding, we are ABLE then to CLEARLY SEE that EVERYTHING, from the 'creation' of man, to the SENDING of His Son to DIE for us, all of it was performed for ONE purpose; LOVE. Couple this with the offering in scripture that God IS LOVE and we are left with NO other possible PURPOSE.

God is NOT a GREEDY God. He is NOT a SELFISH God. He IS a JEALOUS God and has EVERY right to BE so. But what He IS more than ANYTHING ELSE: He IS a GRACIOUS God. His LOVE is offered FREELY to all who are willing to ACCEPT it. His love knows NO BOUNDS. It is ENDLESS. It is PURE. and it is UNDENIABLE.

We WORSHIP that which we ADORE. Whether we are ABLE to come to an understanding of TRUE love or not, we WORSHIP that which we LOVE. In this respect God DOES desire our worship ABOVE all things. He has GIVEN us EVERYTHING that we ARE and that we are ABLE to possess. He EXPECTS recognition for this. But NO amount of ritual or pomp is ABLE to bring about an UNDERSTANDING of GOD's LOVE.

The Jews were 'given' the LAW for ONE purpose. Read The Word and it becomes APPARENT that there was ONLY one pupose for it; TO TEACH. Not for the simple sake of OBEDIENCE. But for the LESSON it was DESIGNED to TEACH. And THAT lesson was simple: LOVE. Love God above all else, and love your NEIGHBOR as YOURSELF. EVERY aspect of the LAW was offered to SHOW us HOW we are ABLE to love. For to DO those 'things' which the LAW forbade is to IGNORE love and offer HATE instead. We MUST offer the OPPOSITE of LOVE in order to STEAL from our neighbors. We MUST offered the OPPOSITE of love in order to 'bear false witness' AGAINST our neighbors. We MUST offer the opposite of love in order to KILL our neighbors.

God's ULTIMATE offering of His love towards US was the offering up of His ONLY begotten Son for OUR sins. In order to bring us INTO His fold, He SENT His precious Son to DIE in OUR PLACE. For FROM THE BEGINNING, the punishment for sin was DEATH. In order to fulfill this Punishment ONCE and for ALL, God sent HIS SON to bear the burden of this punishment so that ALL who were WILLING to accept it would NOT have to suffer so. And there was ONLY one REASON that God DID this: His love for US. A DESIRE to SHARE this love WITH us.

Does ANYONE believe that Paul or ANY of those that died for Christ did so for ANY OTHER reason than the LOVE that had been SHARED with them? Does ANYONE believe that they simply did so out of DUTY? Rediculous. Paul suffered whatever was THROWN at him for the same REASON that Christ willing allowed Himself to be NAILED to a 'cross'. LOVE. Some of His LAST WORDS, "Father FORGIVE THEM for they know NOT what they do''. While He would surely have had EVERY reason from OUR understanding, (that of this world, full of darkness and hate), to BEG His Father to destroy those that would treat Him in such a manner, INSTEAD, being FULL of love, begged His Father instead to FORGIVE those that UNRIGTEOUSLY persecuted Him.

While the secular world has ALWAYS been 'caught up' in the MYSTERY of this life. Unable to COME to an understanding of God or LOVE, it was NOT meant to BE SO. While the secular world constantly sought out NEW ways to appease gods that they had 'created' in THEIR own image, the TRUE God has consistently sent HIS PROPHETS to offer the TRUTH of His existence. And while MUCH of this 'secular world' has ALWAYS founds it's WAY to 'creep into' the hearts and minds of men, God has ALWAYS found ANOTHER way to make His presence KNOWN to us.

The point of these words: The churches as we see them today have done NOTHING but fall AWAY from the truth as offered by God and followed the TEACHINGS of men to the point that the message is FADING again. That there are those among us who would INSIST that we MUST gather EVEN if the GROUP follow 'false teaching' is NOTHING other than this SAME secular confusion that has consistently permeated that which TRULY pertains to God. Those that would INSIST that one MUST do it THEIR way, MUST believe as THEY do, those that would offer hateful words and deeds against their brothers and sisters for NO OTHER purpose than a refusal to ACCEPT as THEY DO, these are NOT 'children of God' but LOVERS of THIS WORLD. SEEKING to bring ALL to this SAME destruction of heart.

No, my friends, there is NO love without forgiveness. And there is NO forgiveness without LOVE. And we can please God NOT IN THE LEAST without THE attribute He has instilled in our hearts. We can DO nothing FOR God other than offer a willing LOVE for Him. And as BF has so poiniently pointed out, EVERYTHING that we DO to EACH other, we DO TO God Himself. For it is NOT a 'sin' against our brothers or sisters that we perform, it IS sin AGAINST God. Christ points this out PERFECTLY clearly when He states that what ANYONE does to the LEAST of HIS they DO TO HIM.

And a little 'bit' of wisdom; Christ offers PLAINLY that what He came and taught US was NOTHING other than what HIS FATHER had TAUGHT Him. An OUTRIGHT statement that GOD was responsible for THAT which Jesus OFFERED. That even the power that He exhibited was GIVEN Him BY the Father. He was SENT by The Father. And He NOW sits at the RIGHT hand of the FATHER. And ALL this offered as example of God's LOVE.

Not some three headed sixteen armed god as those created by men, but A loving and nurturing God that WE were created in the IMAGE of. A God that IS able to REVEAL Himself to those that are willing to LOVE Him in return.

I find it difficult to understand how these words could BE refuted by ANYONE that KNOWS God. But then it's OBVIOUS that there ARE many that simply follow as the Hebrews and Jews did SO MANY years ago. Attempting to FULFILL a purpose through WORKS instead of faith. For IF there IS faith in the hearts of those that believe and follow, then the LOVE is apparent in the fruit that they bear. That there are SO many that CLAIM to follow but have little love in their hearts plainly offers that these are simply followers of SELF and OTHER MEN rather than LOVERS and followers of God.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Here is what Jesus said to Paul when he was before his conversion persecuting the Church; notice carfully what Jesus said.

Acts 22:7-8 (ESV)
7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' 8 And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.'

Jesus could have said, why are you persecuting my Church? Or why are you persecuting my people? No, but He said, "Why are you persecuting me?" Whatever happens to us God is experiencing it as well. Not that God's feels physical pain, but emotionally He is going through what we go through....He lives in us and we live in Him….this is the most intimate kind of relationship that only God and us through the Holy Spirit can have. No other created being will ever have such a relationship…..not any of the angels, only us.

Yes, that is a profound thought. It was counter-cultural, that God could "experience" such things. But now that God has become man, we believe He can experience, along with us, our various pains and trials. It is an intimate relationship.

I had read somewhere of a saint commenting on the angels being "jealous" of man. She commented that they are "jealous" of man because we suffer and can receive the Eucharist, two points of contact where we meet Christ so intimately and which the angels cannot. An interesting meditation.

Regards

 

[BFSmith764]

Here is what Jesus said to Paul when he was before his conversion persecuting the Church; notice carfully what Jesus said.

Acts 22:7-8 (ESV)
7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' 8 And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.'

Jesus could have said, why are you persecuting my Church? Or why are you persecuting my people? No, but He said, "Why are you persecuting me?" Whatever happens to us God is experiencing it as well. Not that God's feels physical pain, but emotionally He is going through what we go through....He lives in us and we live in Him….this is the most intimate kind of relationship that only God and us through the Holy Spirit can have. No other created being will ever have such a relationship…..not any of the angels, only us.

Yes, that is a profound thought. It was counter-cultural, that God could "experience" such things. But now that God has become man, we believe He can experience, along with us, our various pains and trials. It is an intimate relationship.

I had read somewhere of a saint commenting on the angels being "jealous" of man. She commented that they are "jealous" of man because we suffer and can receive the Eucharist, two points of contact where we meet Christ so intimately and which the angels cannot. An interesting meditation.

Regards

I don't believe that they are jealous (Satan and his demons are enraged at this though), but they are curious as to how God will do these things, but I get your point though.

1 Peter 1:12 (BBE)
12 And it was made clear to those prophets that they were God's servants not for themselves but for you, to give you word of the things which have now come to your ears from the preachers of the good news through the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; things which even angels have a desire to see.

 

[Imagican]

Mec, do you always have to talk in riddles? A little plain talk, please, for this old Mary-worshipping Catholic

I didn't realize that it was a 'riddle'. But I will clarify my offering;

I admit, we are able to understand FEW things COMPLETELY, whether of a 'religious nature or simply that which pertains to this world. But God, our Father, HAS revealed Himself TO US. And in this respect we ARE able to KNOW Him. He has revealed Himself to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. while NO MAN has EVER 'seen' God, His Son has DECLARED Him TO US. He has come in the IMAGE of His Father and has OFFERED us a REAL example of WHO and WHAT God IS; for the Son was FULL of the Spirit OF The Father.

I DO NOT worship some 'mystery god'. I KNOW and worship a LOVING and LIVING God that HAS offered understanding of Himself through His Son and the apostles. For 'mystery gods' abound, and HAVE since the dawn of mankind. These, WITHOUT any power of their OWN and dependant upon that offered them through their creation by, and worship of men.

Our God is LIKE us. He CREATED us in HIS IMAGE. No, not bodily, for that is a mere vessel in which is contained our TRUE selves. But in spirit were we created in HIS image. And that spirit IS the Spirit of LOVE which God IS. WE TOO are able to share in this IMAGE; the LOVE that we were created THROUGH. For it WAS love that inspired OUR creation. A DESIRE to 'share it' that inspired God to CREATE man.

While MANY would wish to believe that there is some 'Benevolent' BEING that sits on high DEMANDING that we offer up SACRIFICE FOR HIM, those that KNOW God, know that this is NOT the God that IS Creator. Our TRUE God IS our Creator. Complete in the fulness of His ESSENCE which IS LOVE. A love which HAS been offered usward. For WE TOO are able to BECOME the sons of God. To BE the sons of God. For that IS the PURPOSE of our creation.

While He DOES desire our LOVE, (worship), He is NOT some ALL commanding and demanding DICTATOR as some would portray Him to BE. The laws that He has offered were offered out of LOVE NOT 'selfishness'. Designed to TEACH us HOW to 'become' the sons of God. Offered in an attempt to TEACH us WHAT He IS and what WE can Become.

While perfectly able to destroy as well as create, His DESIRE is to have us LOVE Him as HE loves US. And IF one is able to come to an understanding of TRUE love, then it is clear that WHEN God has destroyed, it was FOR Love. For what loving and caring parent would allow His children to suffer? Those that He has destroyed He did so out of Love. Anyone that would deny this must DO SO out of a lack of understanding of WHO and WHAT God IS.

While there has been much misunderstanding created and perpetuated by the churches, the TRUTH is that God IS Love. God LOVES His children. ALL mankind ARE His children or He could NOT BE the Creator. Some CHOOSE to be separate from God. And for this REASON, one day, this earth and MOST of it's inhabitants WILL be destroyed. Not out of HATE, for God IS Love. But out of His love for mankind will He ONE DAY end the suffering of those that DO NOT KNOW HIM.

Now come those that HATE God. For these, He has created a PLACE OF suffering. For there are those that do not KNOW God and there are those that HATE God. Satan and his followers, (those that CHOOSE to HATE God), WILL be punished. For their TREATMENT of God and their neighbors, they will suffer. The EXACT nature of this suffering has NOT been revealed through scripture. But THAT it EXISTS is without doubt offered in Word.

Everything that exists was CREATED BY God. That it was done THROUGH Christ offers that WE were created in order to SHARE the relationship that Christ has with His Father. For, as Christ IS 'one' with His Father, so TOO are WE able to become ONE with Christ. The relationship that has been offered has been offered THROUGH Christ.

Does the Son KNOW the Father? Of course. And WHEN we 'become ONE with Christ', WE TOO are able to KNOW the Father. For WHEN we become ONE with Christ, the Father SEES His Son in our hearts when He looks usward.

We were NOT 'created' to simply worship an IDEA. We were created to SHARE our existence WITH the Father. To KNOW Him as He KNOWS us. But this cannot be DONE without KNOWING that the relationship EXISTS. Christ CAME to REVEAL this relationship. To SHOW us 'the way'. Previous God had limited His RELATIOINSHIP to CERTAIN individuals. Revealed Himself to FEW. But Christ BROUGHT God, (the KNOWLEDGE of), to ALL who are willing to come to an understanding of and a sharing with Him and HIs neighbors of; LOVE.

I know, more riddles? Hardly. Only to those that DO NOT KNOW what I speak is this revelation hidden. Paul TAUGHT no 'mystery God'. He taught us that God IS Love. That WE are the 'children of God'. We are NOT expected to BLINDLY worship some 'UNKNOWN god'. We are to have FAITH in a LOVING and LIVING God. Our Father who art in heaven.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And watch how SIMPLE it IS to come to a CONCLUSION of the words that I offer. Not MY words, but those offered up OF God:

For God SO LOVED the world.............................. Familiar with these? Ever actually LISTENED to WHAT they OFFER? Read em. Read em AGAIN. Then, THEN you may well be ABLE to UNDERSTAND the PURPOSE of Christ. These words offer NO understanding of God COMING in the flesh. These words offer PERFECTLY CLEARLY Who Christ IS and WHY He came. NOT myterious words in the LEAST. PLAIN, outright words of TRUTH.

John.3

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Two more verses that are pertinent to this topic:

[34] For he, (Jesus Christ; HIS SON), whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Here we have PLAIN words that it was NOT God who CAME, but God WHO SENT............

[35] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

And here AGAIN we have God WHO IS THE FATHER, LOVING His SON who He, (God), has GIVEN 'all things into His, (the Son's), hands.

Here are words that are not MINE OWN. These words are offered up of John, the same man that 'trinitarians' use to PROVE their doctrinal beliefs. Yet John NEVER offers ANY 'triune' nature, nor any MENTION of 'trinity'. He NEVER states ANTTHING remotely associated with: One MUST believe in a 'trinity' to have life eternal. NOTHING of the sort. What he offers is the SAME as EVERY offering concerning Salvation: Jesus Christ IS the Son of God. PERIOD. No mystery here. And Christ IS a 'part of the Godhead'. But the Father IS 'greater' than the Son. God IS the God of Christ as well as OUR God. God IS The Father. The Son IS what the Word states: The SON of God.

When we SEE that 'trinity' was designed by those that OBVIOUSLY had NO relationship with The Father, for IF they had KNOWN God, then they would have KNOWN that there IS but ONE. And there is ONLY ONE 'begotten OF God'. and that all OTHER things exist THROUGH The ONLY begotten, but BY God. For even the SON prayed that, "THY will be DONE".

co-Creator indeed. But BY and THROUGH the WILL of God, who IS the Father. One God, One Son, One Spirit. Three without doubt. But NOT able to BE labeled with words or names OTHER THAN who and WHAT they are: the Godhead. The Family of God. And IF this 'trinity' exists, where do WE fit into this 'trinity' for WE TOO are ABLE to BECOME ONE with Christ.

When we 'break it down' into understandable 'pieces', we can clearly see that there is MORE than 'three', for there are the ANGELS, and MANKIND as well. ALL a PART of God's Creation. How can WE be a PART of this LOVING family if there are ONLY three parts? And exactly WHERE do the 'angels' FIT IN?

Take these quesions into consideration and you will CLEARLY SEE that 'trinity' is NO 'clearer' definition of the relationship between Father, Son and Spirit. It simply LIMITS it to it's OWN definition. And one that is MORE mystery than clarification. For 'trinity' IS indeed a mystery. And IF a mystery, how do you SUPPOSE that it has BECOME so 'all important' in denominationalism? For a mystery IS something that CANNOT BE understood. It is SOMETHING that is simply accepted WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well, this whole discussion spills over into belief in the Trinity. The Bible says that "GOD" created the heavens and the earth. Since Jesus IS GOD - the Second Person of the Trinity - that means he is creator, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The only way you can say Jesus is not creator is by denying that Jesus is God. That is the ancient heresy of Arianism, which the JW's still believe.

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Everyone!

Here's an obvious but seldom-recognized fact about The Word BECOMING the son of God: Jesus was not the Son of God until He was born in the flesh through Mary. Before that He was The Word, an equal and integral part of "The Existing One":
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Phl 2:5-1 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery (booty, spoil) to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (underlines, parentheses and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This obvious fact doesn't change much except to bring out the equality of The Word with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

By the way, somewhere in God's bible I remember reading a verse about creation that showed the participation of The Father, The Word, and the Eternal Spirit. I have been looking for it for months. Anyone know?

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
------------

 

[Imagican]

While what you offer 'sounds good', allow me to point out something PARTICULAR:


9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (underlines, parentheses and color emphases are my own).

Note the word ALSO as offered above. A pure indication that Christ and God ARE separate as to identity. And note that even though the offering COMPARES Christ, (or the Word from your offering), to God, it clarifies the disctinction in that it SHOWS that GOD Himself hath highly exalted Him. And it was GOD that GAVE Him a NAME above all others. And that ALL this was FOR the Glory of GOD the Father.

MEC

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Imagican

No argument on your post. I am certainly not of the "ONE" camp.:D I do think however that it is impossible for Man to fully comprehend the absolute unity between the Father, the Word, and the Eternal Spirit.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[Imagican]

Hi Imagican

No argument on your post. I am certainly not of the "ONE" camp.:D I do think however that it is impossible for Man to fully comprehend the absolute unity between the Father, the Word, and the Eternal Spirit.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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And that's ALL I have attempted to offer; that 'trinity' is an ATTEMPT to define 'something' that MAY WELL BE undefinable in such terms that WE are ABLE to understand.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

And that's ALL I have attempted to offer; that 'trinity' is an ATTEMPT to define 'something' that MAY WELL BE undefinable in such terms that WE are ABLE to understand.

MEC

I shall take this opportunity to agree with you. Human language cannot capture what God is: It is too limited. But we can know SOME things. I have found that Thomas Aquinas has given me the best grasp on understanding what I can about the Triniy

 

[Veritas]

I agree with both of you (CC and MEC). ...and if I may, I think Peter Kreeft's "Summa of the Summa" presents Aquinas' writings very well. If anyone's looking for a good synopsis.