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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Jesus didnot fulfill his prophecy in the bible..Can anyone answer it!!!!!!!!
No, quite the contrary. I don't see the "issue" as you do. As I have already explained. My point is not, does not, consider "Friday," as you seem to think it does. Instead of fighting or trying to provoke, will you not pause and ask what I think? If you did, I would tell you that I'm not 1000% positive but I agree with tim-from-pa (and you, if I understand your position, it's difficult for me to hear you because of the noise levels). I am not sure that we disagree on the issue. I have read your statements in the other thread with an ear to hearing, but you may correct me if I am wrong about your opinion, no problem.
tim-from-pa
Member
Thanks for the support for some of those who quoted me and praised my views. A lot has been added since I saw this thread last, and I got to it late, so I'm tired now and want to go to bed. 
But I will answer Sparrowhawke and "thisnumbersdisconnected" about the verses about the women and the spices. The fact that the women bought spices after the Sabbath, prepared them and then rested again on the Sabbath not only implies two Sabbaths, but a non-Sabbath in between so that they had time to prepare them. So the Thursday crucifixionists can't really use these passages to prove their view, as it's just as detrimental to their view as the Friday view.
But I will answer Sparrowhawke and "thisnumbersdisconnected" about the verses about the women and the spices. The fact that the women bought spices after the Sabbath, prepared them and then rested again on the Sabbath not only implies two Sabbaths, but a non-Sabbath in between so that they had time to prepare them. So the Thursday crucifixionists can't really use these passages to prove their view, as it's just as detrimental to their view as the Friday view.
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
Burial spices were not something that a family kept around the house. They were purchased only when they were needed. No one knew Christ was going to be crucified that day, so they wouldn't have gone out and purchased them until He was dead. And if it was Thursday, under the "two-Sabbath" view, they couldn't have purchased them anyway. There is no way Wednesday is the crucifixtion day. It is too far out from Sunday to work. There would be four nights, not three, before the Resurrection occurred.
You're right about that part. And regarding spices and what exact day or hour or what shop or who sold and all that? We still don't know. So many invented reason to argue here. I can accept your reasoning but that's what it is, reasoning. The Scripture takes priority in my view and I believe also in yours. I'd need more than conjecture to overthrow what appears to be a very clear testimony about a possible time frame. Let me be quick to point out that the Scripture doesn't straight up come out and say, "HEY! YOU GUYS IN THE FUTURE, HERE's THE DEAL:" either. I'm content with that.
Also, I remember reading something about the spices and Judas, don't you? The anointing angers some of the onlookers because the perfume could have been sold for a year's wages—which the Gospel of Mark enumerates as 300 denarii—and the money given to the poor. I'd have to look beyond Wiki to find out and frankly don't have time but here's the rest of what was said there. "Matthew's gospel states that the "disciples were indignant" and John's states that it was Judas who was most offended. John adds that he was bothered because he (Judas) was a thief and desired the money for himself. Jesus is described as justifying the action of the woman by stating that the poor will always exist, and can be helped whenever desired.
The event (or events - see discussion below [Wiki link: Anointing of Jesus]) is reported in Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 7, and John 12."
Last edited by a moderator:
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
This event involved the bottle of nard, which was not a burial spice. It was too expensive to be used as such, as it was imported from India. It was a perfume, a sedative, dried leaves of the spikenard plant could be used as incense, it was even used by the Romans for a food flavoring an an ingredient in beer. It had nothing to do with spices being "on hand" the day Jesus was crucified. I'm still looking for it, but I spoke about the need to buy spices the day of the crucifixion as I remember reading that, for reasons of superstition and an obscure pharasetical rule that the spices were as unclean as the dead body upon which they were used, the Jewish people did not keep them on hand.
Thank you, TND and godspeed on your journey, this little one and the larger one that draws nigh.
Lets us assume you are 100% correct in your stand that Jesus was not in the grave three days. What your stand is confirming is: God, not Jesus, in Genesis 3:15, is not telling the truth. This would mean Satan is not a liar, that God is? This would make the complete Bible a falsehood. Please, do not take my view of your statement as an effort to pound you into a hole, and force you to abandon your question of the issue. There is a jillion others facts in the Bible that prove the Bible true, that Gods written word is correct, and can be trusted.
Can your question be explained? It would seem the day counting of hours in a day can be correct ,or, perhaps there are other Scriptures that prove the matter out. If you recall, there were different accounts of how many were seen in the tomb. That was solved by those who made accounts of the number, were standing in different locations, and could not see all those in the tomb.
Is it a possibility this could fall into something like that?
Huh?
Huh?
Which question?
Yea.... I follow ya.... So what would you suggest?
I'm not really interested in how many were in the tomb at this time.... Is there a reason we should be looking at it?
I believe from Gods command to test all Scriptures, that it is our duty, as you are doing, to follow that command. But, a full test that will prove, or disprove is what should be our goal. We should think, as we test, that we do not side for, or against, but to come to an accurate knowledge of the subject.
"I'm not really interested in how many were in the tomb at this time.... Is there a reason we should be looking at it?"
This is only to show, a difference in what was true...is all are true, from different views.
It would seem the day counting of hours in a day can be correct ,or, perhaps there are other Scriptures that prove the matter out.
Yea.... I follow ya.... So what would you suggest?
I would suggest a complete examination of the scriptures for other time readings.
Can your question be explained?
Which question?
Your statment on the subject, is a question...is your statment true, or false?
Lets us assume you are 100% correct in your stand that Jesus was not in the grave three days.
Huh?
If Jesus was not in the Grave three day by your full day count...where do we go from there?
"I'm not really interested in how many were in the tomb at this time.... Is there a reason we should be looking at it?"
This is only to show, a difference in what was true...is all are true, from different views.
It would seem the day counting of hours in a day can be correct ,or, perhaps there are other Scriptures that prove the matter out.
Yea.... I follow ya.... So what would you suggest?
I would suggest a complete examination of the scriptures for other time readings.
Can your question be explained?
Which question?
Your statment on the subject, is a question...is your statment true, or false?
Lets us assume you are 100% correct in your stand that Jesus was not in the grave three days.
Huh?
If Jesus was not in the Grave three day by your full day count...where do we go from there?
Dominic,
If your whole point is to ask if I've considered all four Gospels, I have. In fact, I have used all 4 gospels to point out something that isn't being discussed enough (in my opinion, of course). That is that all 4 gospels tell when the women came to annoint the body, not necessarily when Jesus raised. In all 4 accounts, Jesus was gone by the time they got there. Whether you want to say it was Saturday night shortly after 6 PM or you want to say it was Sunday morning at sunrise. All four gospels agree that Jesus was not in the tomb when they came.
This is important because none of them ever say he rose at Sunrise or was in the tomb even for a second when the sun was up on Sunday. In fact they all agree that he was gone before the Sun came up. This further damages the Friday model. It was already not even a portion of 3 nights, but it wasn't even a portion of 3 days. In other words, if I am to beleive that Jesus was crucified on Friday and was in the heart of the earth until before Sunrise on Sunday, that is only a portion of 2 days and 2 nights.
So while I believe Matthew to be the most detailed and chronologically accurate of the accounts, I don't discount the other accounts. While they may not support me as strongly as Matthew, they don't hurt the Wednesday model for a crucifixion, but they definitely rule out a Friday crucifixion.
If your whole point is to ask if I've considered all four Gospels, I have. In fact, I have used all 4 gospels to point out something that isn't being discussed enough (in my opinion, of course). That is that all 4 gospels tell when the women came to annoint the body, not necessarily when Jesus raised. In all 4 accounts, Jesus was gone by the time they got there. Whether you want to say it was Saturday night shortly after 6 PM or you want to say it was Sunday morning at sunrise. All four gospels agree that Jesus was not in the tomb when they came.
This is important because none of them ever say he rose at Sunrise or was in the tomb even for a second when the sun was up on Sunday. In fact they all agree that he was gone before the Sun came up. This further damages the Friday model. It was already not even a portion of 3 nights, but it wasn't even a portion of 3 days. In other words, if I am to beleive that Jesus was crucified on Friday and was in the heart of the earth until before Sunrise on Sunday, that is only a portion of 2 days and 2 nights.
So while I believe Matthew to be the most detailed and chronologically accurate of the accounts, I don't discount the other accounts. While they may not support me as strongly as Matthew, they don't hurt the Wednesday model for a crucifixion, but they definitely rule out a Friday crucifixion.
Greetings Domenic,
Perhaps what Slider is saying here is that you may be confused about his "stand" on the matter. That happens with me sometimes, especially if I am actively listening and not replying to what is being said in the contrary. Sometimes, a person may come in part-way through a conversation and might not realize that although I do appreciate binary (black & white) thinking because it's a useful tool when one is first starting to understand a concept, the better tool comes later when the opinion one holds is so solid that it can entertain the thoughts of others without more than a shrug. When that happens with me, I wouldn't necessarily correct somebody else, just because what they said appears wrong, but instead would say something to keep them talking.
So that way, I might be able to use their point of view so as to enrich my own. Not saying anything about Slider's opinion on the matter except I think the he does believe in a 72 hour time frame and that he has been adamant about that in other posts. He will correct me if I'm wrong about that and I would welcome the correction.
But enough about me, back to you, Domenic. Are you certain you know what Slider thinks regarding the "Sign of Jonah," and the 3 days and 3 nights spent in the grave?
Cordially,
Sparrow
I've brought this up often. There are difference in the accounts but that does not mean there are irreconcilable differences. There is a "whole harmony" that not only includes this time-frame but it also includes the time that Noah's arc landed. It also includes Scripture found in Leviticus and Exodus and elsewhere. From that perspective might a synthesis be formed. But from the analysis (the breaking apart and careful examination of the pieces of the puzzle) might also come other gemstones. I like both processes, personally, but am timid to give my whole thought here or elsewhere. Part of that stems from my dissertation and work-in-progress that I'm writing or plan to right, "The Art of Bah-Humbuggery," but then again, this too is a different subject.
~Sparrow
tim-from-pa
Member
Earlier I posted
The reason is simply this, Yeshua said to them, “Are there not twelve hours in the day?
I actually had another person argue with me how many hours there were in a day (aren't there 24?) but I pointed out this meant the daytime (but they apparently did not agree or understand).
But I understand. The issue is not how many hours, but the statement makes sense. I knew Yahweh made me into a gnomonist for a reason. That statement is a code for us sundial makers as to how they kept time, Roman, Greek and Hebrew kept 12 hours in a day, and that was represented (maybe Yeshua was even thinking of it) by a hemispherium sundial. The point being is that since Yeshua was defining a day as 12 hours, something very precise measured by sundials, then he was being specific when he later stated "3 days and 3 nights" as in Genesis --- these are entire days, just as in Genesis. So, we can multiply 6 x 12, can't we? and get the total hours in the grave.
The fact that he stated 12 hours, thinking of the hemispherium sundial, rules out any alternate definitions of a day, or "part of a day" as we gnomonists know that a day contains 12 hours. In other words, that statement alone is a code and clue that it ceases to be an idiom and to be taken literally.
So, that's why I take it literally. And as a side note here, using inclusive reckoning has the specific events of his death, his burial, and resurrection occur in the midst of days, thus throwing off the Hebrew feast days fulfillment which makes these events have to happen between days. In other words, I'm saying that the death had to happen late on the 14th of Nisan (or Abib), He had to be laid in the tomb at the start of the 15th (Unleavened Bread) and arose by the 18th (15+3) for Firstfruits. When we consider "inclusive reckoning, we have him buried yet on the 14th and start counting to 3 at that point(unscriptural), and if he arose Sunday morning, we have him dead yet on part of the Firstfruits (unscriptural) so it goes beyond mere counting. But if we consider the feast days, he MUST be buried at sundown and arise at sundown on whatever day he arose. when we consider inclusive reckoning, it does not make any sense if we restrict those events to sundown.
I did not say in all these posts why I believe that. I thought I did, but that was elsewhere as this "3 day and 3 night" controversy comes up every year so I am involved in several right now.
The reason is simply this, Yeshua said to them, “Are there not twelve hours in the day?
I actually had another person argue with me how many hours there were in a day (aren't there 24?) but I pointed out this meant the daytime (but they apparently did not agree or understand).
But I understand. The issue is not how many hours, but the statement makes sense. I knew Yahweh made me into a gnomonist for a reason. That statement is a code for us sundial makers as to how they kept time, Roman, Greek and Hebrew kept 12 hours in a day, and that was represented (maybe Yeshua was even thinking of it) by a hemispherium sundial. The point being is that since Yeshua was defining a day as 12 hours, something very precise measured by sundials, then he was being specific when he later stated "3 days and 3 nights" as in Genesis --- these are entire days, just as in Genesis. So, we can multiply 6 x 12, can't we? and get the total hours in the grave.
The fact that he stated 12 hours, thinking of the hemispherium sundial, rules out any alternate definitions of a day, or "part of a day" as we gnomonists know that a day contains 12 hours. In other words, that statement alone is a code and clue that it ceases to be an idiom and to be taken literally.
So, that's why I take it literally. And as a side note here, using inclusive reckoning has the specific events of his death, his burial, and resurrection occur in the midst of days, thus throwing off the Hebrew feast days fulfillment which makes these events have to happen between days. In other words, I'm saying that the death had to happen late on the 14th of Nisan (or Abib), He had to be laid in the tomb at the start of the 15th (Unleavened Bread) and arose by the 18th (15+3) for Firstfruits. When we consider "inclusive reckoning, we have him buried yet on the 14th and start counting to 3 at that point(unscriptural), and if he arose Sunday morning, we have him dead yet on part of the Firstfruits (unscriptural) so it goes beyond mere counting. But if we consider the feast days, he MUST be buried at sundown and arise at sundown on whatever day he arose. when we consider inclusive reckoning, it does not make any sense if we restrict those events to sundown.
Yea... About that.... Everyone is assuming that no one annointed the body. Now, no one has given satisfactory answer about when the women bought spices and when they prepared them. But no pun intended.... The body of Jesus was annointed before the burial to a degree.... Check out John 39:39 and John 39:40. Someone did have some burial spices.... Perhaps they did purchase them in haste, but the Bible doesn't say that.
Amen! I agree with you on that!!!!!
Yea well, you are going on that Jesus rose on Sunday at the rising of the Sun, and every Gospel says by that time he was already risen. Matthew says he was out of the tomb by 6 PM on Saturday, thus making it a perfect 3 days and 3 nights. BUT, if we go by the Friday crucifixion, even if he did raise on Sunday at sunrise (SOMETHING THE BIBLE SAYS DIDN'T HAPPEN AND SOMETHING) it's not three days and three nights. Going by tradition and not the Bible, that's only 3 days and 2 nights. That's something traditionalists can't grasp or simply refuse to understand. Yet Jesus said 3 days and 3 nights.
The fact is that when we consider all four Gospels, Jesus was out of the tomb BEFORE sunrise on Sunday. Like I have continously said, the earliest account is that he was out by 6 PM Saturday. That is what Matthew said. He gave the most accurate, detailed and overall he pays more attention to Chronological events than any other. Even above John. But what is more telling is that ALL accounts note that Jesus rose before Sunday "day" came to be. So tradition is wrong. Jesus was not in the tomb 3 days and 2 nights. The best case scienerio is that it was two days and two nights, even if I believe the rediculous notion that a fraction of a day (like 90 minutes out of 12 hours) constitutes a whole day.
If Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth 2 days and two nights, I would doubt my theory. But he didn't. And the fact that Jesus said there were 12 hours in a day tell me that he meant us to be accurate. Now, Tim seems to be taking it to a whole new level and wants to talk about sundiles and proper clocks..... I won't go that far. I'll let him to that. But on the basic level, I understand what he is saying.
And I think it's stupid to believe the Jews in that time considered a fraction of the day to be a whole day. It's been pounded into our heads as a major point that they did. Again, we aren't even talking about what the Jews believed -- a rebellious group that was constantly in trouble because they couldn't follow God to his exact words when he told them to do so! I don't care what the Jews regarded as a "day". God said he saw the day as 12 hours and the night as 12 hours. Tim can have his sundiles all he wants, and I support him on that and perhaps I should study up on them more....
But folks.... He he.... You ain't got even a portion of 3 days and 3 nights even with your traditional beliefs and much less so with your liberal view of the Bible when it says Jesus was already gone by the time the sun rose on Sunday.
So you want to say, "Jesus couldn't have died on Wednesday, becuase that is too much time! That's 4 nights and 3 days!" or whatever garbage you put forth! Yea..... But you ignore the fact that even the most traditional model says it's not enough time. That is a hypocritical responce!
Again, read Jas 1:17. There is no variableness in God. When he says something it's on the money. I don't care what the unproven customs of the Jews were. I don't care what they considered a day was. I don't care what you THINK it was either.... Because the Jews seemed pretty keen to start the Sabbath right on time.... They seem to want to begin the Sabbath at 6 PM or whenever the Sun goes down... It seems to me that they don't play around with that.
They were in a pretty big hurry to get him buried.... But heck... 3 hours, 90 minutes, 1 minute... Yea... That's a full day! Yea, sure....