Jesus' Formula for forgiveness.

[Poster]

Jesus’ formula for forgiveness

Jesus has a formula for forgiveness.

It is throughout the Gospels, we’ve all heard it clearly, spelled out, sometimes with parables, and clear live examples are given by Jesus himself.

There are two possible formulas for forgiveness.

First off, John 3:16 says that you gotta believe in Jesus. At a minimum, to believe in someone means to believe what they say. Rarely does ‘believe in’ mean that the person is God, if ever.

Which does Jesus actually say, which is Jesus’ actual formula to be forgiven?

1. “You must believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice.â€Â

Or

2. “You must forgive others to be forgiven. If you do not forgive others, you won’t be forgiven.â€Â

Now, we all agree that Jesus at least said #2 and never clearly, in one speech, he never said #1. (We have John ch 1, 8 and 10 to discuss, no question, but those chapters do not have #1, and secondly, do not necessarily have Jesus stating he is God. He was ‘sent’ by God, and like all prophets, he spoke for God. Moses wasn’t God and Moses was ‘sent’ by God. More on these later.)

One could argue, by piecing together words cut out here and isolated sentences there, yes, we have Jesus use the word ‘sacrifice’ and ‘blood’. But those cases do not have Jesus saying, “You must believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice.â€Â

Jesus doesn’t *have* to say #1 clearly, I’m just pointing out that he did not, in fact, say #1 clearly at all. If at all.
I’m saying he did say #2 clearly, it’s a common theme throughout his ministry, hard to miss.

It’s a separate argument that given all the instances of clear cases of #2, clear, in context, with parables, with live cases before him, #2 seems to be, in fact, Jesus’ formula for forgiveness.

Evidence to my argument is that Jesus told people that they were “forgivenâ€Â, past tense, before the cross, without teaching them formula #1 at all. The context of each case clearly has, as the reason for their being ‘forgiven’ that they forgave others in some way.

It is not clear that even Jesus’ own disciples knew he of the point of the cross [if any] so surely people who just met Jesus, and were ‘forgiven’, past tense, did not need to believe that Jesus was both God and their sin atonement sacrifice. The context of each case even permits that they knew neither that Jesus was God, nor their sin atonement sacrifice, yet they were forgiven.

Is #1 possible? Anything is possible. My point is that given that Jesus tried so hard to get across #2 as his formula, and never once stated #1 clearly or at one sitting, then if you are playing the odds, #2 is your bet, if you go by context and reject out of context splicing. (It's possible that Jesus 'sacrificed' himself for his teachings. His only teachings were #2, not #1.)

I know that it’s possible that #1 is a sufficient condition, while #2 is but a necessary condition. However, you need something other than the bible, you need Church traditions to decide that possibility over-rides the over-whelming sermons that Jesus actually gave.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[St Francis]

Why does it have to be either/or? Why not both/and ? (...plus a few other things to boot?)

 

[Poster]

Matthew 6:14-15 (New International Version)
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

If the above is true, then if I forgive men when they sin against me (easy enough) then I am forgiven, whether or not I do anything else. Now if I have to accept Jesus as God and sin atonement sacrifice,then forgiving others would not be enough to be forgiven, making verse 14 false.

How many times does Jesus say I have to believe he is God to be forgiven?

Zero.

How many times does Jesus claim to be a sin atonement style sacrifice?

Zero. (He did 'sacrifice' his life so men can have the knowledge of forgiveness. What is that, see what knowledge Jesus actually gave, just check his sermons. All over the Gospels.

You have some of them memorized:

Luke 6:37 by heart, and it is in context, on point.

Luke 6:37 (New International Version)

Judging Others

37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.


Wow! It doesn't say a thing about me having to believe Jesus being God my sin atonement sacrifice.

And how could someone be 'forgiven' past tense if Jesus hadn't died yet?

Does it really make sense that God can't possibly forgive us...
unless we torture Him to death? Only THEN does God gain the ability to forgive?

If so, how did Elisha get to heaven?

If so, why does Luke say some people were without sin?

If so, how could King David be without sin, yet we know he sinned? Is it possible he was forgiven without the cross?

Yes, especially since Jesus never said anybody had to believe he, Jesus, was God their sin atonement sacrifice.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Luke 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

If I have to believe Jesus is God, then why does the NT say such a thing?

and why can't Jesus, just once, say that I have to believe that I must believe he is God to be forgiven? or my sin atonement sacrifice?

Why did he try to avoid being caught by the Romans? He didn't want to be killed?

Why didn't he come right to Adam, wouldn't that have saved thousands of years of souls going to hell with no chance to be saved?

Why must it be that every Filipino up until Magellan 500 years ago is going to hell simply because they had no chance on earth to hear the name of Jesus or the story of the cross?

If I'm going to hell for failing to accept Jesus as my sin atonement sacrifice, if that was the whole point of Jesus coming here and suffering, wouldn't it have been nice if he mentioned it, just once?

So what does Jesus do instead? He goes on a campaign to tell me that to be forgiven, I have to forgive others.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Gee, that doesn't sound like I have to believe Jesus is God, my sin atonement sacrifice.

At least, not according to Jesus.

Respectfully submitted and thank you for your post.

 

[St Francis]

How many times does Jesus say I have to believe he is God to be forgiven?
Zero.

I disagree because: 1) Jesus said he was God, and 2) Jesus said you must follow him

How many times does Jesus claim to be a sin atonement style sacrifice?
Zero.

The Bible is the written word of God, and the Bible most surely says about Jesus, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). He is the sacrafice, the "lamb".

 

[Poster]

In what verse does Jesus say he is God?

It's one thing to say Jesus takes away the sins of the world.

Well, he didn't actually take them away, not exactly, not according to either plan for forgiveness.

If as God / sin atonement sacrifice, Jesus didn't take away the sins of the world unless you do something, namely, believe Jesus is God, sin atonement sacrifice.

Or, as Jesus actually said, by giving people the knowledge of how to be forgiven.

So, he didn't take away any sins unless you *do* something, either #1 believe he is God, sin atonement sacrifice, or, as he *actually said over and over again*, #2 forgive others to be forgiven.

How did he actually say to be forgiven? It's all over the Gospels, all the time:

John 20:23 (New International Version)
23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Where's the requirement to believe that Jesus is God? Where's the requirement for a sacrifice?

Here?

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

(yet modern Christians say that people are condemned to hell)

If I am to believe in Jesus at Mat 12:7, then he's either trying to trick me or he actually meant what he said, over and over, I must forgive others. If I do, according to Jesus, I'm saved. If I don't, I'm not saved. He never clealry claimed to be God, and he certainly never said I had to believe he is God to be forgiven. When the topic came up (at John 10) he argued that that's *not* what he meant.




So, if Jesus said to follow *him*, why do Christians not do exactly that? Follow what the man said, what's wrong with doing that?

As a side note, Passover lambs are not 'sin atonement' sacrifices. If Jesus followed all the laws, then for his whole life even he brought a Passover lamb every year, even the last one (he was murdered after the Last Supper. Not 'sacrificed' by the Romans - though he did 'sacrifice' his life by taking the risks for his teachings of forgiveness. That's not the same kind of 'sacrifice' as an offering. The Romans came and got him to kill him, the Romans didn't 'sacrifice' Jesus, he 'sacrificed' his own life for his teachings. It seems whenever he could avoid being killed, he did so, except if it meant bloodshed of his followers or the Romans who came to get him.

bold added:

Isaiah 55:
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.

7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.


Notice the word, 'freely'. Meaning, no charge.

Christians say this is impossible, God is too perfect, He can't forgive, we need a man to save us from the maker of Hell, God (sounds like God and the Devil serve the same purpose).

but God says that despite that Christians can't figure out how God can forgive, God replies:

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.


So, God *can* forgive, way back in the time of Isaiah, 'freely'.

bold added:

Luke 1:
5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron.
6 Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly


'blamelessly'?

Perhaps it's easier to be forgiven than the Church has lead us to believe.

Matthew 9:5
Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?

Try each in a hospital or in front of any person in a wheel chair.

It's easier to say 'Your sins are forgiven.'

I wouldn't dare say, 'Get up and walk.'

Would you??

Jesus knew that so many people were forgiven, past tense, because they qualified to be forgiven.

He wasn't claiming to be God.

He always preferred 'Son of Man' (son of men are not God).

If he allowed, 'Son of God, which from time to time he did, he always either said he was 'sent' by God or he was being beaten so that it was obvious that the did not think he was God.

Of course, in the Old Testiment, 'son of God' was the phrase for man.

The Romans, who became the Christians, thought that a 'son of god' was a god, Julius Caesar did that just 50 year before Jesus, so there was a confusion between the Jews and non-Jews over what being a 'Son of God' meant (no capital letters in speech).

Job 26:
6 how much less man, who is but a maggotâ€â€
a son of man, who is only a worm!"


So, what was Jesus saying, when they accused him of claiming to be God?

'Yes, I am God.'

No. He did not say that.

He said,

John 10:
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God cameâ€â€and the Scripture cannot be broken 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

e John 10:34 Psalm 82:


Psalm 82
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."


Obviously Jesus was not claiming to be God, he was saying that the Jewish use of the term 'gods' (as footnoted by the NIV to Psalm 82) proves that it's OK for any man to claim to be a god, because the Jewish sense of the word is not God the creator.

The context of John 10 bears this out.

37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.

Not that if I claim to be 'sent' by God, that's not a claim to *be* God.

Moses was sent by God. Moses was not God.


St Francis, thank you very much for your post.

Respectfully,

Poster

 

[St Francis]

In what verse does Jesus say he is God?.....

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9). And yes, Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"â€â€invoking and applying to himself the personal name of Godâ€â€"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mouâ€â€literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus "who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus (Rev. 1:17). This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

The first Christians believed this also. Here are some quotes:

Ignatius of Antioch: "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides: "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Clement of Alexandria: "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginningâ€â€for he was in Godâ€â€and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

...It's one thing to say Jesus takes away the sins of the world....

...and that was accomplished by the shedding of His blood... ..the sacrafice of "the lamb": Jesus.

 

[Poster]

John 8:14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.


''who sent me'

Jesus is 'sent' by God and speaks for God.

Moses and other prophets did the same thing.

That doesn't make them God, correct?

Jesus doesn't state that his death itself removed the sins.

Rather, Jesus states that forgiving others removes sins.

Jesus was killed, Jesus 'sacrificed' his life for his teachings.

The Romans did not kill Jesus with the intent to 'sacrifice' him so the sins of the world would go away. Rather, they killed Jesus because of what he taught. Jesus died for his teaching. He taught the same thing over and over, forgive to be forgiven, with examples, giving live cases, and reasoning to that end. He never argues that he needs to be killed, or we won't be forgiven, he never says I have to believe he is God to be forgiven.

Was Jesus telling the truth when he said that if I forgive others, I will be forgiven?

If Jesus said that people were forgiven before the cross, then they were forgiven without the cross.

If Jesus says God does not require sacrifices, then God doesn't.

Does not Jesus 'correct' their misunderstanding of what he was saying by bringing Psalms 82, which shows that men are, in Hebrew, 'gods' and yet not God?

Thank you for your post.

 

[Veritas]

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Do you know who wrote this, and when?

 

[Vic C.]

OT

... Rather, Jesus states that forgiving others removes sins.

Jesus was killed, Jesus 'sacrificed' his life for his teachings.

The Romans did not kill Jesus with the intent to 'sacrifice' him so the sins of the world would go away. Rather, they killed Jesus because of what he taught. Jesus died for his teaching. He taught the same thing over and over, forgive to be forgiven, with examples, giving live cases, and reasoning to that end. He never argues that he needs to be killed, or we won't be forgiven, he never says I have to believe he is God to be forgiven....

Hi Poster.. welcome to the site.

If I may use your quote to clarify something...

Jesus was not crucified for His teachings. Yes, He was despised for His teachings and eventually it led to the Jews wanting Him dead. It was also not the Romans, per say. They were the "tool" God used, of course. It was an agreement between Roman rule and the Jews that made it customary during the Passover feast to release one prisoner.

They opted to free Barabbas and crucify Jesus instead. He was a substitute, in a manner of speaking. Very fitting indeed, in the overall plan of God. Very fitting also, that this takes place at Passover. Nothing in God's plan is coincidental.

What was Jesus' crime? In the eyes of the Jews, He was a heretic, guilty of blasphemy. But we must take the whole of God's written word of we are to understand why Jesus had to die. Craig nailed it with his quote form Isiah. Jesus gave His life willingly for us, because that was God's decree.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Did Jesus argue that His must die? A reading of John 13-17 declares yes and gives many reasons why, as does many other writings in the Bible.

 

[Poster]

Craig, Isaiah hundreds of years before Jesus, referring to the Jewish people.
We both agree that wasn't Jesus who wrote that. Your argument is that Isaiah is saying that Jesus must (someday be God) our sin atonement sacrifice because we are 'healed' through his death right?
We can discuss what Isaiah meant there, the glaring problems with that chapter referring to Jesus,
["he will see his offspring and prolong his days" must be figurative if it refers to Jesus, so we're picking and choosing what is literal and what we can ignore, right?]

But we both agree that Jesus himself did not teach this, correct?

Even if it is true that we must believe Jesus is God, our sin atonement sacrifice, Jesus himself did not teach that in the Gospels, nor did Jesus appeal to Isaiah 53 to apply to himself, nor did Jesus ever say we have to believe Isaiah 53 (either your understanding or mine). Correct?

Vic C, thank you for permitting me to post on this wonderful and vibrant site, looks like a very well taken care of and 'safe' place to discuss, and thanks for welcoming me.


John 15:9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

That's not a command to believe Jesus is God / sin atonement sacrifice. If anything, it implies Jesus is not God. Does God love himself? That doesn't read as a proclamation that I must believe Jesus is God my sin atonement sacrifice.

12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

That *IS* consistent with his constant and ubiquitous teachings, that we must forgive each other to be forgiven. If you love someone, you have forgiven them (indirectly) .

12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

That's not Jesus saying we must believe he is God, our sin atonement sacrifice at all.

That's Jesus telling us to love each other, even to the point of US laying down OUR lives for our friends. Note that the context of verse 14 shows he's still telling US what to do through verse 13.

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

That doesn't sound like Jesus is claiming to be God. Jesus learned from God. It wouldn't make sense to say that God learned from God.

And what, exactly, has Jesus 'made known' to us at this point in the NT? That he had to die on the cross as God our sin atonement sacrifice and that we must believe that?

Not yet (if ever). Nobody seems to be aware of that idea yet, if ever in the Gospels. Rather, what has Jesus taught, over and over, what has been 'made known' to us?

Mat 18:
35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

'unless you believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice' ?

No. That's not what Jesus 'made known'.

You have to FORGIVE to be forgiven.

That may sound too simplistic, but you gotta admit it is logical, direct and fair.

And it's what the man actually taught, over and over, directly, with examples, and with live cases.

He said people were 'forgiven' who had shown forgiveness or love for others, long before the cross, and nobody knew Jesus was God yet nor did they know he was supposed to be their future sin atonement sacrifice.




Thank you both for your important comments, time and attention.

 

[Veritas]

Craig, Isaiah hundreds of years before Jesus, referring to the Jewish people.
We both agree that wasn't Jesus who wrote that. Your argument is that Isaiah is saying that Jesus must (someday be God) our sin atonement sacrifice because we are 'healed' through his death right?

Yes.

We can discuss what Isaiah meant there, the glaring problems with that chapter referring to Jesus, ["he will see his offspring and prolong his days" must be figurative if it refers to Jesus, so we're picking and choosing what is literal and what we can ignore, right?]

How literal is "pierced by our transgressions" in the first place? About as literal as "I'm a offspring of God"?

But we both agree that Jesus himself did not teach this, correct?
Even if it is true that we must believe Jesus is God, our sin atonement sacrifice, Jesus himself did not teach that in the Gospels, nor did Jesus appeal to Isaiah 53 to apply to himself, nor did Jesus ever say we have to believe Isaiah 53 (either your understanding or mine). Correct?

I'd say that assumption is wrong.

We'll start in the Gospel of John. Consider the following about what Jesus said:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." John 3:14-21

Comments?

John 15:9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

That's not a command to believe Jesus is God / sin atonement sacrifice. If anything, it implies Jesus is not God. Does God love himself? That doesn't read as a proclamation that I must believe Jesus is God my sin atonement sacrifice.

12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

That *IS* consistent with his constant and ubiquitous teachings, that we must forgive each other to be forgiven. If you love someone, you have forgiven them (indirectly) .

12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

That's not Jesus saying we must believe he is God, our sin atonement sacrifice at all.

That's Jesus telling us to love each other, even to the point of US laying down OUR lives for our friends. Note that the context of verse 14 shows he's still telling US what to do through verse 13.

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

That doesn't sound like Jesus is claiming to be God. Jesus learned from God. It wouldn't make sense to say that God learned from God.

And what, exactly, has Jesus 'made known' to us at this point in the NT? That he had to die on the cross as God our sin atonement sacrifice and that we must believe that?

Not yet (if ever). Nobody seems to be aware of that idea yet, if ever in the Gospels. Rather, what has Jesus taught, over and over, what has been 'made known' to us?

Mat 18:
35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

'unless you believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice' ?

No. That's not what Jesus 'made known'.

You have to FORGIVE to be forgiven.

That may sound too simplistic, but you gotta admit it is logical, direct and fair.

And it's what the man actually taught, over and over, directly, with examples, and with live cases.

He said people were 'forgiven' who had shown forgiveness or love for others, long before the cross, and nobody knew Jesus was God yet nor did they know he was supposed to be their future sin atonement sacrifice.

Yes, forgiving others is something we must do as a follower of Christ. No, the disciples were pretty clueless at the time, but they "got it" after Christ's resurrection and the atonement was given for us. It makes sense that after God has forgiven so much through the atonement of His Son - that yeah - who are we NOT to forgive a petty little sin of one other person. What do we have to give up compared to what He gave up for us. He gave up His life. We can surely forgive others.

 

[Poster]

Hi Craig,

Thank you for your time and replies.



So we at least agree that during Jesus' life:

1. Jesus did not teach: we had to believe Jesus is God to be forgiven.

2. Jesus also did not teach that we must believe his death would be a 'sin atonement'? [I stipulate and agree that he at least thought of his death as some sort of 'sacrifice' for his teachings, whatever they were, and that whatever his teachings were, they were critically important somehow.]

And we agree that Jesus taught that if we forgave others, we would be forgiven? Can we agree that this was the most common theme he preached? I'm ready to examine each of his few sermons to find this theme, I'll do the work. The 'forgive others' theme can be found in almost every speech.

"You must believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice," Requires almost as many cut and pastes as there are words in that sentence. It's never stated clearly, not once.

The word, "Trinity" isn't even in the entire bible.


Respectfully submitted,

Poster

 

[Veritas]

Hi Craig,

Thank you for your time and replies.

So we at least agree that during Jesus' life:

1. Jesus did not teach: we had to believe Jesus is God to be forgiven.

Well, that's kinda a funny way to state what He taught. We need to believe in Jesus and what he tells us (John 3:16). We need to believe that God saves. Jesus taught that, and did that (Again, John 3:16). So if Jesus saves... we come to the conclusion He's God. Plus Jesus expressly said He was God (John 8:58).

2. Jesus also did not teach that we must believe his death would be a 'sin atonement'? [I stipulate and agree that he at least thought of his death as some sort of 'sacrifice' for his teachings, whatever they were, and that whatever his teachings were, they were critically important somehow.]

Wait, what parts of the Bible do you accept? Do you accept the Gospels and the recorded sayings of Jesus as accurate?

And we agree that Jesus taught that if we forgave others, we would be forgiven? Can we agree that this was the most common theme he preached? I'm ready to examine each of his few sermons to find this theme, I'll do the work. The 'forgive others' theme can be found in almost every speech.

When Jesus was asked about the most important teachings he said:

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."Matthew 22:37-40

Forgiving others certainly extends from the statement above.

You must believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice," Requires almost as many cut and pastes as there are words in that sentence. It's never stated clearly, not once.

It's fairly clear in John 3:16. And it's clear when Jesus uses the name of God to identify Himself (John 8:58).

The word, "Trinity" isn't even in the entire bible

I agree, its not in there. The word "Trinity" is a name for the conclusion the Bible leads to about the nature of God.
.

 

[Poster]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for writing again.

John 8:26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

Once a person says that he is speaking for God, that God 'sent' him, then when he talks, he's speaking for God. Moses did that, so did many prophets.
John 8 clearly has Jesus claiming to be 'sent' by God quite a few times. If he then speaks the words of God, that's not a claim to be God, many prophets use the first person at some point or other.

I don't 'accept' the bible at all.

However, if John 3:16 says you must believe in Jesus, and Jesus says you can be forgiven by doing X, then if you don't believe that, then it's an odd claim to claim to believe in Jesus. At a minimum, to believe in a person at a minimum means to believe what they actually say.

If I were to believe the current Pope is God, then I wouldn't really be believing in him, would I? I would be denying what he teaches, that he isn't God.

When the bible teaches moral rules, then we should follow those moral rules. If there are arbitrary rules, then it's more complicated. Let me know if you want more here.

"The word "Trinity" is a name for the conclusion the Bible leads to about the nature of God."

I noticed you didn't say 'Jesus makes that conclusion'. You didn't exclude it, either. What is your most clear verse, from Jesus, that he is God? (probably John chapters 1, 8 and 10).

I would like to explore more of each of those if you would enjoy that.

Craig, was Jesus telling the truth when he said, over and over again, that people were 'forgiven', even though the cross had yet to occur?

(Notice that Lazarus died, and was permitted to be brought back to life and then go to heaven. Why not give that option to everybody? Jesus or God like to see people burn without chance of reform?)

Thank you for your important replies, all on point, thanks.

 

[Veritas]

I don't 'accept' the bible at all.

Ok, I think we need to stop here for a bit. We need some basis of agreement for what Jesus actually said. How are you determining what Jesus said?

 

[Poster]

Consider any trial where Bob is the defendant.

If Bob says, "I went to the football game, that's my alibi."

If then Bob later says, "I've never seen a football game."

Fred can simply point to Bob contradicting Bob to prove that Bob is not telling the truth.

That doesn't mean Fred *must* believe Bob at either the first or second statements to do that.

If Jesus is quoted in the Gospels as having said, 'If you forgive, you will be forgiven."

And then later Christians say that if I forgive everybody but don't believe Jesus is God, my sin atonement sacrifice, then therefore I am not forgiven, they contradict the quotes of Jesus from the Gospels.

Jesus could be correct. However, Christians who 'must' believe in Jesus, yet turn around and reject his formula for forgiveness (found throughout the Gospels) as impossible, can not be.

I suppose if someone states that the Gospels can not be taken at face value, it's not literal, such a person could argue anything consistently, because they aren't obligated to go by the Gospels at all.
They could just assign any meanings to any words that they wished, and even have those meanings change from one sentence to the next. However, that's not a "compelling" presentation of any text.

I suggest that respectfully and thank you again for your patience, persistence, love and time.

 

[Veritas]

That doesn't mean Fred *must* believe Bob at either the first or second statements to do that.

I see. Well do you think any of Bible is accurately recorded? Do you think Jesus actually said: "If you forgive, you will be forgiven"? I'm just looking to see if we have a baseline to work from.

If Jesus is quoted in the Gospels as having said, 'If you forgive, you will be forgiven."

And then later Christians say that forgiving is not enough, I don't have to believe either party to point out, logically, both can not be correct. I can point out that John 3:16 requires, at a minimum, that Christians believe in what Jesus says, based on the plain meaning of 'believe in' and I can point out that by denying the formula Jesus gives, that they contradict themselves, even if unknowingly.

Ok, so that means that so far I have not adequately shown that Jesus expressed more than "If you forgive, you will be forgiven". Right?

See, I'm not denying the statement "Forgive and you will be forgiven" In my view it's not a logical contradiction with having to go only through Jesus for salvation (He did say so in John 14:6). It's only a logical outworking from a greater picture.

Let's go back before John 3:16 again... I did post that before, to what Jesus said in John 3:14-15. Here Jesus explains the Atonement.

“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.†(John 3:14-15)

this is a direct reference to Numbers 21

The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. So the people came to Moses and said, ‘We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us.’ And Moses interceded for the people. Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.’ And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.†Numbers 21:6-9

So... just as “if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived,†so too, if sin has bitten any man (and it has bitten every man) if he looks to the Cross of Christ, he will spiritually live.

 

[Poster]

So Moses is like Christ?

Fine with me.

Moses was not God.

(I'm sorry, I made some minor changes to my earlier post. Sometimes I can't stop playing with my posts. You can ignore it.)

I think that Jesus believed himself to be on a par with Moses, perhaps even superior (if the Gospels are true at all, and I suspect they have some historical validity, and I can try to prove it to you in private if you wish, based on some references he made that Christians don't typically catch. He makes a passing reference to a complicated Talmudic case which Christians don't know about. And Talmudic scholars have had no motivation to 'plant' accurate Talmudic oral references into the NT before the oral Talmud was even written down, hundreds of years after the NT, yet on the other hand, the NT scholars typically have no idea about the Talmudic case even today. Why would they care about rabbinic arguments? Christians reject the oral traditions of the Jews in toto.)

I'm convinced that Jesus believed his message, whether to forgive to be forgiven or the modern Christian one, that he preached that he was God, our necessary sin atonement sacrifice, whatever his message was, he certainly believed it was the key to get to heaven.


Can we agree that if you (and all of Christianity) is correct,

nevertheless,

I am correct that in the Gospels Jesus taught

that if you forgive others, you will be forgiven,

and that this was the main theme of his ministry to the people he taught in person before he was murdered?

Also, was Ezekiel correct when he said (see my signature line below) that someone can be forgiven by works?

I have often said that there is no greater impossibility to a Christian, absolutely none, than to suggest that someone can be forgiven by 'works', yet, there it is in the bible.

I would agree that forgiveness is by grace, that at best the passage means that God grants undeserved forgiveness. The only question is what actually motivates God to do so, what does God say He wants us to do?

A. Trying yet again and again to do what He asks of us, as He says several times? Or, perhaps,
B. God prefers we kidnap Him and torture Him to death.

Hmm.... which would I prefer of my children?

A. That they try yet again to repent and do what I asked, even if imperfectly.

Respectfully,

Poster

PS. I don't honestly think that Jesus went around giving that Serpent analogy expecting people to come to the conclusion that he was God, our sin atonement sacrifice. Why not? Because he didn't elaborate on the matter, in context, with examples, but when he did want to, at other times he gave all sorts of context, examples, parables and spelled out clearly the ''forgive to be forgiven' formula.

Craig, thanks again.

 

[St Francis]

So Moses is like Christ?....

Moses is a "type" of Christ. ("Type", as in typology.)

 

[Poster]

I had to look that up, and I still don't understand it.

That's not Jesus clearly telling me I have to pray to him, as God, my sin atonement sacrifice.

So, can we pray to Moses, if you say he's a 'Christ' after all, why not? I'm completely ignorant on that, none of that is clear to me... partly because it's not clear from the text, it's 'in the dark' by definition of the word, 'typology' (it seems to me, from the brief glance I gave to 'typology' in Wikipedia).

Jesus does clearly say, frequently, often, with examples, that if I forgive others, I will be forgiven. Why do I forgive? So God can forgive me. According to Jesus' actual clear and direct words in the Bible, with examples given, no deep analysis needed.

If I'm going to hell if I get it wrong, why would Jesus say I would be forgiven, clearly, by forgiving others, when that is false or misleading, when the real crux of the matter is hidden in some sort of biblical analysis from which I must somehow figure out he's a sin atonement sacrifice, and I must believe he is God, or burn forever? Why not just come right out and say that? If you were going to roast someone, wouldn't you make it clear what the critical requirement was? It only takes one sentence, "You must believe I am God, your sin atonement sacrifice." Ten words. Christians need to splice together words from at least ten verses from ten different chapters to get that one sentence. Was Jesus afraid being killed? That wouldn't make any sense if that was the crux of his being here. If, on the other hand, the main point of his being here was to teach forgiveness, then I can see where he would be willing to spill his blood, yet also why he would try to avoid being killed, yet at the same time being willing to sacrifice his life to get out his message.


Doesn't Jesus refer to Psalm 82, which calls men 'gods', yet Psalm 82 argues that isn't so special?

My understanding of that is, since God made man, we are God's children. Contrast with Roman theology which has some people as divine offspring and others waste matter.

It is my understanding that the Jewish idea that we are all God's children was somewhat novel and in contrast with the Roman idea that to claim to be a son of God was to claim to be on a par with Julius Caesar, who did that a mere 45 years prior, with hostile Roman reaction to such a claim. In other words, for Jesus the Jew to make such a claim, the phrase 'Son of God' is merely to believe that God made us all, but to Roman ears, they're hearing another claim from another Julius, and they don't react well to someone claiming to be a new king.

When I was a Christian, I didn't think of Moses as actually divine, I only thought of him as being close to God, as you can be. Was I mistaken?

I do agree that if the Gospels are true, then Jesus thought of himself in most important *human* terms, perhaps a super prophet, perhaps some sort of mediator, but a 'man mediator' between God and men.

1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all menâ€â€the testimony given in its proper time.

Luke 2:52 (King James Version)
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

As a side note, if someone stole my cow and killed it that's not a 'sacrifice' in the Temple meaning of the word.

Respectfully,

Poster