Jesus' Formula for forgiveness.

[Veritas]

So Moses is like Christ?

Fine with me.

Moses was not God.

(I'm sorry, I made some minor changes to my earlier post. Sometimes I can't stop playing with my posts. You can ignore it.)

That's fine, I do the same thing.

I think Jesus was comparing himself to the serpent on the staff more than Moses. But, as St Francis said, there are similarities between Moses and Christ.

I think that Jesus believed himself to be on a par with Moses, perhaps even superior (if the Gospels are true at all, and I suspect they have some historical validity, and I can try to prove it to you in private if you wish, based on some references he made that Christians don't typically catch. He makes a passing reference to a complicated Talmudic case which Christians don't know about. And Talmudic scholars have had no motivation to 'plant' accurate Talmudic oral references into the NT before the oral Talmud was even written down, hundreds of years after the NT, yet on the other hand, the NT scholars typically have no idea about the Talmudic case even today. Why would they care about rabbinic arguments? Christians reject the oral traditions of the Jews in toto.)

I don't mind if you mention them here. I'm not sure what you are referencing, but I do know Christian apologists point towards the Talmud because it mentions Christ. Of course, it is in the negative sense, but it lends to the historical veracity of Him.

I'm convinced that Jesus believed his message, whether to forgive to be forgiven or the modern Christian one, that he preached that he was God, our necessary sin atonement sacrifice, whatever his message was, he certainly believed it was the key to get to heaven.

That modern Christian message your envisioning was fleshed out quite a bit by Paul. And his writings most likely predate the gospels.

Can we agree that if you (and all of Christianity) is correct,

nevertheless,

I am correct that in the Gospels Jesus taught

that if you forgive others, you will be forgiven,

Yes, I agree with you up to that point... but...

and that this was the main theme of his ministry to the people he taught in person before he was murdered?

I cannot agree with this considering Jesus' numerous references to Himself as the messiah. Forgiving others is, as I've already said, innately tied with the atonement. Consider the parable of the unmerciful servant (Matthew 18:22-35). That parable really ties everything together.

Also, was Ezekiel correct when he said (see my signature line below) that someone can be forgiven by works?

I have often said that there is no greater impossibility to a Christian, absolutely none, than to suggest that someone can be forgiven by 'works', yet, there it is in the bible.

The pieces need to be put together. No, we do not save ourselves, God saves. Like paul says in his famous verses, Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast ...but Paul goes on from there... For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

In Galatians 5:6 Paul sums things up nicely saying that the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

There are many verses like Ezekiel. And Ezekiel is correct. In more ways than one. We are stuck between what is described in 18:21-23 and what is described in 18:24. In a larger sense, 18:21-23 is describing repentance, which is fleshed out later in 18:30-32. It culminates with God pleading with mankind "Repent and live!" And this is what it's all about...where our heart is.

This is what is really central, it is this that Jesus started His ministry with:

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15

Luke 5:32 "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

It is this that He left us with

(Jesus) told them... The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations. Luke 24:46

I would agree that forgiveness is by grace, that at best the passage means that God grants undeserved forgiveness. The only question is what actually motivates God to do so, what does God say He wants us to do?

A. Trying yet again and again to do what He asks of us, as He says several times? Or, perhaps,
B. God prefers we kidnap Him and torture Him to death.

Hmm.... which would I prefer of my children?

A. That they try yet again to repent and do what I asked, even if imperfectly.

Yeah, I agree with that. I don't think God preferred we kidnap Him and torture Him to death either. I think God sure made our nastiness backfire on us though. He used our worst towards providing us with the greatest good.

PS. I don't honestly think that Jesus went around giving that Serpent analogy expecting people to come to the conclusion that he was God, our sin atonement sacrifice. Why not? Because he didn't elaborate on the matter, in context, with examples, but when he did want to, at other times he gave all sorts of context, examples, parables and spelled out clearly the ''forgive to be forgiven' formula.

I think Jesus likes us digging deeper. What are your thoughts on Matthew 18:22-35 that I mentioned earlier

Craig, thanks again.

No problem. Thanks for the good questions and topics.

 

[St Francis]

So Moses is like Christ?....

Moses is a "type" of Christ. ("Type", as in typology.)

I had to look that up, and I still don't understand it.

Typology is the study of things which pre-figure their fulfillment ion the NT. For exampl, Paul refers to Jesus as the new Adam. By Adams sin, man fell into bondage of sin. By the new Adam's obedience to the Father, we are freed from the bondage of sin. That is a small example of typology. King David is another example, as he is also a "type" of Christ. He was King of God's people, and Jesus is the King of King's, Lord of God's people.

 

[Poster]

Veritas huge thanks for your polite, on point, and intelligent replies.

1. Mat 18

2. Grace

3. Ezekiel 18


Mat 18 proves that Jesus' formula is that if you forgive, you will be forgiven. Forgiving others is the key. The whole chapter is a powerful proof, perhaps the most powerful in the NT.

The chapter gives a parable, which explains what is going on.

Then, to sum up, Jesus spells it out:

35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Earlier, there are even questions, like the ones we have today, 'Once saved always saved.'

Mat 18
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

I don't read Mat 18 and come away with the notion that to be forgiven, we must bring a goat to the Temple, or capture God and torture him to death.


(Jesus) told them... The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations. Luke 24:46


Consistent with the idea that if you forgive you will be forgiven. Notice it did not say, 'sacrifice and forgiveness of sins'


2. Grace.

We agree, absolutely, that we don't 'deserve' anything. Let's be clear. Nobody 'earns' what they are given.

But, now that we're clear on that, do we still have to do what God says, according to the bible?

Why not?

If you gave your son an overly lavish allowance just to make his bed and brush his teeth, did he 'earn' this allowance? No. But should he at least do what you ask? Why not?
Especially since the bible itself says that's what you should do in cases of prior sin.

3. Ezekiel 18
I do not yet understand how anyone can read that and conclude, from that, that we need a sacrifice to be forgiven when it says that (works), turning back to God forgives.

As for Jesus being the messiah, it turned out that he failed to bring about the redemption, correct?

Rather than throwing out the Romans and bringing peace, quite the opposite occurred, no?

Of course, he thought of himself as being on the path to doing that, he thought God would send a fleet of angels saving him at the critical moment, but instead, God left him to die on the cross.
I think Jesus accepted the whole thing rather well, however. And he even followed his own theology, asking God to forgive those who were killing him.

Thank you most respectfully for your important wisdom and time.

 

[Veritas]

Mat 18 proves that Jesus' formula is that if you forgive, you will be forgiven. Forgiving others is the key. The whole chapter is a powerful proof, perhaps the most powerful in the NT.

The chapter gives a parable, which explains what is going on.

Then, to sum up, Jesus spells it out:

35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Earlier, there are even questions, like the ones we have today, 'Once saved always saved.'

Mat 18
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

I don't read Mat 18 and come away with the notion that to be forgiven, we must bring a goat to the Temple, or capture God and torture him to death.

Ok. But do you come away with the notion that God has forgiven us an incredible amount?

(Jesus) told them... The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations. Luke 24:46


Consistent with the idea that if you forgive you will be forgiven. Notice it did not say, 'sacrifice and forgiveness of sins'

...and so he suffered and rose because...?

2. Grace.

We agree, absolutely, that we don't 'deserve' anything. Let's be clear. Nobody 'earns' what they are given.

But, now that we're clear on that, do we still have to do what God says, according to the bible?

Why not?

If you gave your son an overly lavish allowance just to make his bed and brush his teeth, did he 'earn' this allowance? No. But should he at least do what you ask? Why not?
Especially since the bible itself says that's what you should do in cases of prior sin

I'm glad we agree about grace, but I'm not really sure what you're asking.

3. Ezekiel 18
I do not yet understand how anyone can read that and conclude, from that, that we need a sacrifice to be forgiven when it says that (works), turning back to God forgives.

As for Jesus being the messiah, it turned out that he failed to bring about the redemption, correct?

Rather than throwing out the Romans and bringing peace, quite the opposite occurred, no?

Of course, he thought of himself as being on the path to doing that, he thought God would send a fleet of angels saving him at the critical moment, but instead, God left him to die on the cross.
I think Jesus accepted the whole thing rather well, however. And he even followed his own theology, asking God to forgive those who were killing him.

Just out of curiosity, are you by chance Jewish in faith?

 

[Poster]

///Ok. But do you come away with the notion that God has forgiven us an incredible amount?///


Yes, absolutely.

////


...and so he suffered and rose because...?

///

Lots of good Christians suffer and will go to heaven. I, and Christians, don't know why. If a Christian is forgiven, why don't they just rapture up to heaven when their time is up?
They don't, and also we don't have a reason why they die before going to heaven.

I don't see that Jesus coming back to life dictates that he is God. Deut 13 says that even false prophets can have signs and wonders come true. Miracles count for nothing, you wouldn't worship a tree if it could do miracles, no matter how grand. If my pet rock could spell my name in the stars and on the atoms, you still would not worship me or the rock.

Jesus was willing to die for his teachings of forgiveness. He did, but tried many times to avoid it. He didn't want to spill the blood of those ready to defend him, so he was brave when the Romans showed up.

We all go to heaven at some point. Except for Bob, the guy at my work.
Why did Elijah rise to heaven? Not sure about that one either, but that one is more impressive than having to die first.


I don't care if the flaming angel of God appeared directly in front of me, I'm not kill a baby for revenge, that's just absurd. I'm trusting in God to back me up, even if He was the one told me to do it. Seriously.