jesus is agianst law enforcement and military

[jasoncran]

since there are some that are pro law enforcment anti yet agianst military, i though i would enlighten them to the history of roman soldiers were also military and the law enforcers(to a limited extent, as the ancient civilazations had no concept of cops as we know them) in the roman occupied lands.

i'll use the secular archeology to show this.
then i will use paul's accounts in acts.

http://www.christiancops.org/romans13.htm
this is one a good one for why christians can be cops.
http://nefer-seba.net/essays/roman-police.php
this one above explains what paul and the lord talked about the magistrates.
note the roman army did some protection in the large scale if a revolt broke out, but generally stayed out of the small stuff.

acts 16:25-31,12:1-19,acts 19:23-41,acts 23, note vs 17.
acts 10
these verses mention that improsement of the apostles and how the roman authority, "protected" paul from the jews,and i threw in the cornelius,as he was a centurion.
did rome abuse it's authority,yes, but take note that paul a roman citizen used his rights to appeal to ceaser, and was guarded the whole time by centurions. was rome wicked yes, but is the office of the cop and military evil as well?


reread romans 13 then answer.
so if a cop is a good why cant the soldier be good is well, after all both offices(people in them) have been abused.
do i believe all wars are just, do i believe cops have arrested and detained and or killed unjustly, no, yes.
while the later is more rare, but that wasnt like that less than a century ago, ie watts riots, the murder of black panther group,the lynching of innocent black men just so the public would feel safe when a murder was commited and there were no real suspects.

 

[follower of Christ]

http://www.christiancops.org/romans13.htm

That is a VERY good link there, Jason.
I seem to agree with it 100% from just browsing it over briefly.
It definitely keeps things in a proper context and lays out the arguments in a very balanced manner.

 

[follower of Christ]

Just tossing this one in as it goes along with the previously mentioned link given in the OP.
Jesus acknowledges that even Pilates power/authority over Him was GIVEN from above.

Then Pilate said to Him, "Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have authority to crucify You, and I have authority to release You?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority at all against Me unless it had been given to you from above. Therefore the one who betrayed Me to you has a greater sin."
(John 19:10-11 EMTV)

 

[jasoncran]

http://www.christiancops.org/romans13.htm

That is a VERY good link there, Jason.
I seem to agree with it 100% from just browsing it over briefly.
It definitely keeps things in a proper context and lays out the arguments in a very balanced manner.

at a quick glance i like that one as well, i'm trying to in the link between the military and law enforcement as you cant have one without the other.
rome did something like we do on a very different scale. the national guard deals with the massive riots and civil disturbance with support to the local cops.
the centurions and the roman army let the local magistrates handle the small stuff and kept the over all peace.

 

[follower of Christ]

at a quick glance i like that one as well, i'm trying to in the link between the military and law enforcement as you cant have one without the other.

They absolutely are the same to a great extent.
Law enforcement deals with evil within the borders, while military deals with those threats outside it.
Of course, as mentioned, these need to be free of corruption.

 

[shad]

It seems that many, many Christians and churches are quick to ignore and dishonor simple and clear messages and commandments of Jesus. And they make simple ones more complicated than they actually are.

Jesus' commandment of "love your enemy" is so simple and clear yet so many churches are making up many excuses to justify the military. There is no room for God' kingdom to condone this kind of worldly mentality. The military is totally of this world concept. Jesus' followers are not of this world.


Luke 6:27-36 (King James Version)

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

I urge everyone to reexamine your hypocritical practices and theologies for those reasons.

 

[follower of Christ]

It seems that many, many Christians and churches are quick to ignore and dishonor simple and clear messages and commandments of Jesus. And they make simple ones more complicated than they actually are.

Jesus' commandment of "love your enemy" is so simple and clear yet so many churches are making up many excuses to justify the military. There is no room for God' kingdom to condone this kind of worldly mentality. The military is totally of this world concept. Jesus' followers are not of this world.

So, do you apply this just to everyone else...or do you apply Jesus' words (as YOU interpret them) to yourself as well ?

If so, can we assume that you would 'love your enemies' while they were killing your child ? Your parents ? Your spouse ?

I urge everyone to reexamine your hypocritical practices and theologies for those reasons.

I hope there is no hypocrisy here that would say that our COUNTRY cannot defend itself but YOU can.

.

 

[jasoncran]

shad reread those versus and then tell was paul as sinner as he used the roman army a few times for protection, a nephew told him of the jews plan and paul knew of it.

you missread the romans 13 , then that first link uses that for all law enforncement, and in the ancient days the roman army and some others did law enforcenment on a limited scale.

i have history to back this up and scripture, after all what good is that sword if theres noone to weild it!

 

[shad]

So, do you apply this just to everyone else...or do you apply Jesus' words (as YOU interpret them) to yourself as well ?

Of curse I do. I dont approve of the military. I have been speaking against it because christians joining the military is disgracing Jesus. Jesus hates hypocrisy. I have been spreading Jesus overseas and I hear many non-believers saying Christians love wars. I feel embarrassed about it. I have to explain to them that Jesus says to "love our enemy" and participating the war is not Jesus' idea.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

So, do you apply this just to everyone else...or do you apply Jesus' words (as YOU interpret them) to yourself as well ?

Of curse I do. I dont approve of the military.

Im not asking you if you approve of the military. Nice deflection.
I noticed you clipped off the actual question I asked ;)

Im asking you if you apply the same logic to YOU as you do everyone else.
You say 'love your enemy'...so DO YOU apply this to YOU as well ?
If someone were killing your child, parent or spouse and you had a gun in your hand and it was the ONLY way to save them WOULD YOU USE IT ?

Please dont dodge this time around

Jesus hates hypocrisy.

Youre right, He does.
That would include the hypocrisy of, for example, someone telling everyone ELSE to 'love your enemy' while THEY werent applying it directly to THEIR lives....ie telling our leaders to leave us as defenseless sheep with no military, while this person would in fact use force against an enemy to save their own life, their childs, their parents or their spouses lives.

So....a man is about to kill your wife, child, parent....you have a gun....do you use it to stop them or not ?
Its a really easy yes or no question.


.

 

[follower of Christ]

shad reread those versus and then tell was paul as sinner as he used the roman army a few times for protection, a nephew told him of the jews plan and paul knew of it.

you missread the romans 13 , then that first link uses that for all law enforncement, and in the ancient days the roman army and some others did law enforcenment on a limited scale.

i have history to back this up and scripture, after all what good is that sword if theres noone to weild it!

In Romans 12 Paul also shows condition...it isnt some absolute directive prohibiting us from using force where it is necessary.

If possible, as much as depends on you, keeping peace with all men.
(Romans 12:18 EMTV)

"IF"
G1487
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ei
i
A primary particle of conditionality; if, whether, that, etc.: - forasmuch as, if, that, ([al-]) though, whether. Often used in connection or composition with other particles, especially as in G1489, G1490, G1499, G1508, G1509, G1512, G1513, G1536, and G1537. See also G1437.

If it is possible...if you are able...be at peace as far as you yourself are concerned and within your ability to do so.
Warmongering men like Saddam Hussein was and Osama bin Laden make it IMpossible to be at peace with them. And regrettably they are a threat to the entire world since its just a matter of time before they find the right person looking for a few bucks and get their hands on a nuke to use against one of our cities.

I thank God that pacifists do not rule our leadership. Otherwise we'd likely have been overrun by Islamic terrorists and mail bombers at this point who just want to 'love their enemy' until we die.

.

 

[shad]

[quote="follower of Christ":1xb1msps]
So, do you apply this just to everyone else...or do you apply Jesus' words (as YOU interpret them) to yourself as well ?

Of curse I do. I dont approve of the military.

Im not asking you if you approve of the military. Nice deflection.
I noticed you clipped off the actual question I asked ;)

Im asking you if you apply the same logic to YOU as you do everyone else.
You say 'love your enemy'...so DO YOU apply this to YOU as well ?
If someone were killing your child, parent or spouse and you had a gun in your hand and it was the ONLY way to save them WOULD YOU USE IT ?

Please dont dodge this time around [/quote:1xb1msps]

Isn't this thread about the military? Why are you changing it to being about me personally?

I dont mind talking about myself but I dont want to change the topic of the conversation. If you want to know my personal beliefs, send me a personal message, where private conversations belong.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Another passage comes to mind here about hypocrisy...

Therefore the one teaching another, do you not teach yourself? The one preaching not to steal, do you steal? The one saying not to commit adultery, do you commit adultery? The one detesting idols, do you rob temples?
(Romans 2:21-22 MKJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

Isn't this thread about the military? Why are you changing it to being about me personally?

I dont mind talking about myself but I dont want to change the topic of the conversation. If you want to know my personal beliefs, send me a personal message, where private conversations belong.

.

Just as expected, another dodge.

Were YOU not the one who spoke about hypocrisy ? ;)

Jesus hates hypocrisy.

Im not interested in a Private discussion with you, shad.
If you dont want to answer because of your 'yes' proving that youre being hypocritical as you just said Jesus hates, we understand.
And if you dont want to answer because your 'no' will have us all gasping for air thinking that youd let someone kill your family even if you had the means to stop them, again we understand.
No answer you give here will look good, so it makes sense that you wouldnt want to answer.

We all answer personal queries in here all the time. I find it pretty odd that this one is suddenly out of bounds

Your views on self defense are relevant here as self defense and national defense are one and the same as far as morality goes.
If you condemn one and not the other then its being hypocritical.
.

.

 

[shad]

Another passage comes to mind here about hypocrisy...

Therefore the one teaching another, do you not teach yourself? The one preaching not to steal, do you steal? The one saying not to commit adultery, do you commit adultery? The one detesting idols, do you rob temples?
(Romans 2:21-22 MKJV)

Hypocrisy is also when you say you love Jesus and He is God, then make excuses to justify your disobedience.

BTW, I strive to be obedient to all of Jesus' commandments including "loving my enemies." I don't preach anything if I don't apply it to myself. Jesus hates hypocrisy.

I speak against Christians approving the military because "love your enemy" is so clear and simple commandment that there is no way to make excuses.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit; approving the military is disgracing and misrepresenting Jesus big time. It is a grave sin.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Hypocrisy is also when you say you love Jesus and He is God, then make excuses to justify your disobedience.

Sort of like when a man tells everyone else, including our goverment, that they cannot defend themselves and others but are to 'love their enemies' while this same person WOULD use a gun to defend himself or his wife, child or parent ?

BTW, I strive to be obedient to all of Jesus' commandments including "loving my enemies." I don't preach anything if I don't apply it to myself. Jesus hates hypocrisy.

Agreed.
Sort of like when a man tells everyone else, including our goverment, that they cannot defend themselves and others but are to 'love their enemies' while this same person WOULD use a gun to defend himself or his wife, child or parent ?

Jesus says we know them by their fruit; approving the military is disgracing and misrepresenting Jesus big time. It is a grave sin.

.

No, what is a disgrace....worse even....is a godless coward (no one in particular) who would "misrepresent" our Lords words into justifying his lack of protecting his wife, child or parent with force if necessary.

And whats even worse of a disgrace is a man who WOULD protect them by force who would have the audacity to even try to judge a countries leaders for having a military (citizens, by the way) for protecting its citizens with force. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

So, do you apply this just to everyone else...or do you apply Jesus' words (as YOU interpret them) to yourself as well ?

Of curse I do. I dont approve of the military. I have been speaking against it because christians joining the military is disgracing Jesus. Jesus hates hypocrisy. I have been spreading Jesus overseas and I hear many non-believers saying Christians love wars. I feel embarrassed about it. I have to explain to them that Jesus says to "love our enemy" and participating the war is not Jesus' idea.

.

let me ask you this, when the police are overwhelmed in a riot or national disaster, ie hurricanes, and large civil disobedience, ie la riots, watts riots. are those national guardsmen and active duty hyporcrites for performing large scale law enforcement. they usually dont shoot unless absolutely necessary and the media failed to tell us that were often shot at by those "poor" helpless citizens of new orleans, while getting and giving some aid, or guarding power plants and other utilities.

let's keep this from beginning personal, but to be honest i had to adress your comments in another thread, shad.

 

[shad]

And whats even worse of a disgrace is a man who WOULD protect them by force who would have the audacity to even try to judge a countries leaders for having a military (citizens, by the way) for protecting its citizens with force. ;)

We are talking about the Christians' practices of Jesus' commandments. Most countries are not known to be Christian nations but America is well known as such. If countries are not known as Christian nation they dont have any obligation to follow Jesus' commandments. America is well known as war crazy Christian country because there are many, many Christians in the military.

We should be ashamed ourselves misrepresenting Jesus in such ungodly practices.

.

 

[jasoncran]

as a soldier i hate war, but it more evil let loved ones and fellow citizens get hurt.
what, dont you know that the military and police cross train and use each others training facilities.
i never said all wars are just, shoot i believe iraq was a mistake, but what about ww1,ww2,and kosovo, bosnia? and few others where innocents were being sujected to genocide, or we were attacked.

 

[follower of Christ]

And whats even worse of a disgrace is a man who WOULD protect them by force who would have the audacity to even try to judge a countries leaders for having a military (citizens, by the way) for protecting its citizens with force. ;)

We are talking about the Christians' practices of Jesus' commandments.

No, friend, YOU are blanketly bashing every military force on the planet. I dont remember any qualifiers in your previous statements.

Most countries are not known to be Christian nations but America is well known as such.

Irrelevant.
Being christian does not mean being unable to defend the innocent.

We should be ashamed ourselves misrepresenting Jesus in such ungodly practices.

.

No, who should be ashamed....worse even....is a godless coward (no one in particular) who would "misrepresent" our Lords words into justifying his lack of protecting his wife, child or parent with force if necessary.

And whats even worse shame is a man who WOULD protect them by force who would have the audacity to even try to judge a countries leaders for having a military (citizens, by the way) for protecting its citizens with force.