Jesus Is God: Part 1

[Cooper]

Your argument doesn't follow

Self condemnation and denial of scripture from ones own lips.

Point 8. In 1John 5:20 Jesus is called “the true God and eternal life.”

Point 9. In the last verse of the previous chapter, Jesus is praying for himself, in which he says, “but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” In verse 5 we are told he will again have the Fathers glory, and as only God has the Fathers glory, that means he was God in heaven before he humbled himself if he was to have the Fathers glory again.

Point 10. As he had the glory of God before the world began and as no created creature has existed before the World began, the only person who existed before the world began was the Creator and it is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible that JESUS is THE creator, i.e. he is GOD.

This is how to sharpen iron.

 

[Edward]

Then maybe you shouldn't follow this thread. However, there are people are interested in more than propaganda. Some people actually want to things. Iron sharpens iron. If you're easily offended maybe this isn't the tread for you.

But, but...what about your propaganda?!

 

[Butch5]

But, but...what about your propaganda?!

I'm not giving propaganda. I'm addressing the passages that pertinent to the discussion. I'm not just dumping 30 passages into a post with no comment and ignoring everything else.

 

[Butch5]

Self condemnation and denial of scripture from ones own lips.

Point 8. In 1John 5:20 Jesus is called “the true God and eternal life.”

Point 9. In the last verse of the previous chapter, Jesus is praying for himself, in which he says, “but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” In verse 5 we are told he will again have the Fathers glory, and as only God has the Fathers glory, that means he was God in heaven before he humbled himself if he was to have the Fathers glory again.

Point 10. As he had the glory of God before the world began and as no created creature has existed before the World began, the only person who existed before the world began was the Creator and it is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible that JESUS is THE creator, i.e. he is GOD.

This is how to sharpen iron.

Jesus was talking about the Father

 

[Cooper]

Jesus was talking about the Father

You have said enough already.

 

[christian1724]

I would ask, are they the same molecules? In other words, Is a given molecule existing in all three states simultaneously?

Interesting. So, if in a closed system, for any individual molecule (of water for example), what determines whether it's a solid, liquid, or gas? They are the same temperature, and pressure. If they are not in all three states simultaneously, then what is the defining difference? It's excitation state?

I've sorta always looked upon God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as ultimately undefinable by us and probably for good reason we should avoid applying any rules to. We can seemingly identify aspects of each. But in attempting to assign to them a definition that's seems drifting towards blasphemy.

 

[Butch5]

Interesting. So, if in a closed system, for any individual molecule (of water for example), what determines whether it's a solid, liquid, or gas? They are the same temperature, and pressure. If they are not in all three states simultaneously, then what is the defining difference? It's excitation state?

I've sorta always looked upon God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as ultimately undefinable by us and probably for good reason we should avoid applying any rules to. We can seemingly identify aspects of each. But in attempting to assign to them a definition that's seems drifting towards blasphemy.

You'll have to Free about the first part of your post. I'm not familiar with that theory.

As far as defining God, I'm simply repeating Scripture.

 

[Edward]

I'm not giving propaganda. I'm addressing the passages that pertinent to the discussion. I'm not just dumping 30 passages into a post with no comment and ignoring everything else.

Nope, you sure don't. But it's curious how you seem to ignore most bible passages that have been posted for you! Post's that make it clear that we do we have a spirit.

Can you not see the structure of a family on earth? The Dad is the boss. And the boss of the Son. The Son has a lot of responsibility. And the mom? Well, you best not talk bad about Mom!

As above so below. What we have on earth here, came from Heaven to us. And it's easy to see the family structure in or construct, in Heaven already through scripture. It's almost all what the bible talks about! Father, Children, Son & Daughters, and servants. All of that.

Stop looking at it carnally. Start looking at it spiritually. No, the molecules of the Father is not the same molecules that make up the Son, but the Son carries the Fathers DNA. He came from the Father. Jesus has one God, His Father. Jesus is God to us Himself because no one goes unto the Father but through Him.

So you're darn right they are three in one. But you overcomplicate it for yourself by overthinking it.

 

[Butch5]

Nope, you sure don't. But it's curious how you seem to ignore most bible passages that have been posted for you! Post's that make it clear that we do we have a spirit.

I never said we don't have a spirit. I've acknowledged repeatedly that man has a spirit. What I've denied is that man "IS" a spirit. You guys have posted passage after passage showing man "HAS" a spirit while claiming man "IS" a spirit. That's not how one proves a point.

Can you not see the structure of a family on earth? The Dad is the boss. And the boss of the Son. The Son has a lot of responsibility. And the mom? Well, you best not talk bad about Mom!

As above so below. What we have on earth here, came from Heaven to us. And it's easy to see the family structure in or construct, in Heaven already through scripture. It's almost all what the bible talks about! Father, Children, Son & Daughters, and servants. All of that.

Sure, I see the relationship. But that's not what the issue is. The claim is that all three persons are one God, a single being. That is what I've denied. That is what no one has proven. Posting a passage that says Jesus is God only proves Jesus is God. It doesn't prove that He is a single being with the Father. You guys may think it does but that's based on your presuppositions. The statement could easily be understood as Jesus is Deity. If we get down to a scientific method that doesn't prove that Jesus and the Father are the same being

Stop looking at it carnally. Start looking at it spiritually. No, the molecules of the Father is not the same molecules that make up the Son, but the Son carries the Fathers DNA. He came from the Father. Jesus has one God, His Father. Jesus is God to us Himself because no one goes unto the Father but through Him.

So you're darn right they are three in one. But you overcomplicate it for yourself by overthinking it.

The molecules of the Father are not those of the Son. That indicates two separate beings. Yet, you claim they are one. How can that be? Unless you're using figurative language such as one in unity how can two be one literally?

 

[Edward]

Sure, I see the relationship. But that's not what the issue is. The claim is that all three persons are one God, a single being. That is what I've denied. That is what no one has proven. Posting a passage that says Jesus is God only proves Jesus is God. It doesn't prove that He is a single being with the Father. You guys may think it does but that's based on your presuppositions. The statement could easily be understood as Jesus is Deity. If we get down to a scientific method that doesn't prove that Jesus and the Father are the same being

John 10:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one. .../

Seems clear to me. Do you not believe that? That God's word is true?

How 'bout this one?

John 14:
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?.../

There's spiritual physical laws which are in Heaven also. The spiritual realm works a bit differently than our physical world. And whatever God has, the enemy seems to want the same thing. God seeks people to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. The enemy wants worship too. God says He is the head and we are the body. The enemy says yeah a legion of 2000 of us possess that man. Do you see any similarities there? Lol.

God has given life to all. God is a Spirit. Spirits can merge together. These are spiritual realm physics that...that's just how it is there, and we're about clueless about the spiritual realm.

So where did you learn so much about the spiritual realm that you can say that, Jesus and the Father are not the same being? AND can go off in different directions if they want to, with different trains of thought, and really really be one.

Now the Holy Spirit wont leave us and is our tutor and guide if we let Him. Jesus said He will never leave us or forsake us. Are you in Christ? Is Christ in you? Then believe it. Jesus said I do nothing except what I see the Father do, I say nothing but what I have heard the Father say...

So if you think about it, all three of them are present with you right now. All three. One God, one purpose. They are always there, watching listening. Hoping that you talk to them. Aside even from the cloud of witnesses! There's no such thing as privacy on this planet! Every moment of every persons life is being recorded in Heaven.

Annnd, I think that you are trying to look at this and comprehend it, like an adult. Try looking at it from a childs perspective and it's much easier to believe.

Ok so the floor is lava. We go with that then... :wink

He said to you that you must become as a child or you wont enter the kingdom of heaven. Ponder that one bro.

 

[Butch5]

John 10:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one. .../

Seems clear to me. Do you not believe that? That God's word is true?

How 'bout this one?

John 14:
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?.../

There's spiritual physical laws which are in Heaven also. The spiritual realm works a bit differently than our physical world. And whatever God has, the enemy seems to want the same thing. God seeks people to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. The enemy wants worship too. God says He is the head and we are the body. The enemy says yeah a legion of 2000 of us possess that man. Do you see any similarities there? Lol.

God has given life to all. God is a Spirit. Spirits can merge together. These are spiritual realm physics that...that's just how it is there, and we're about clueless about the spiritual realm.

So where did you learn so much about the spiritual realm that you can say that, Jesus and the Father are not the same being? AND can go off in different directions if they want to, with different trains of thought, and really really be one.

Now the Holy Spirit wont leave us and is our tutor and guide if we let Him. Jesus said He will never leave us or forsake us. Are you in Christ? Is Christ in you? Then believe it. Jesus said I do nothing except what I see the Father do, I say nothing but what I have heard the Father say...

So if you think about it, all three of them are present with you right now. All three. One God, one purpose. They are always there, watching listening. Hoping that you talk to them. Aside even from the cloud of witnesses! There's no such thing as privacy on this planet! Every moment of every persons life is being recorded in Heaven.

Annnd, I think that you are trying to look at this and comprehend it, like an adult. Try looking at it from a childs perspective and it's much easier to believe.

Ok so the floor is lava. We go with that then... :wink

He said to you that you must become as a child or you wont enter the kingdom of heaven. Ponder that one bro.

Yes, He said we must have faith as a child. He didn't say believe nonsensical things.

How do I know they have different trains of thought? In the garden Jesus said, 'not my will but thine be done'.

How do I know they are not the same being? Paul tells us that no man can see the Father. Men have seen Jesus.

I'll bet if you guys worked for me and came in on Friday to get paid and I gave you one third of the amount we agreed upon and said, each one of those dollars consists of three other dollars so each dollars I gave you is actually three dollars, not one of you accept that. You'd be complaining and want the rest if your money. If you wouldn't accept it in money, why do you accept it in God.

As far as the spiritual realm, I think you're speculating.

 

[Edward]

Yes, He said we must have faith as a child. He didn't say believe nonsensical things.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Look to the unseen and have faith.

How do I know they have different trains of thought? In the garden Jesus said, 'not my will but thine be done'.

I intended to say with different things to go do at the moment. It prolly is the same train of thought. Do you have the mind of Christ?

How do I know they are not the same being? Paul tells us that no man can see the Father. Men have seen Jesus.

Right, and Jesus said, if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

I'll bet if you guys worked for me and came in on Friday to get paid and I gave you one third of the amount we agreed upon and said, each one of those dollars consists of three other dollars so each dollars I gave you is actually three dollars, not one of you accept that. You'd be complaining and want the rest if your money. If you wouldn't accept it in money, why do you accept it in God.

He said become as a child, not childish. I accept it in God and not money because God is GOD, and money is childish, lol.

 

[Cooper]

I'll bet if you guys worked for me and came in on Friday to get paid and I gave you one third of the amount we agreed upon and said, each one of those dollars consists of three other dollars so each dollars I gave you is actually three dollars, not one of you accept that. You'd be complaining and want the rest if your money. If you wouldn't accept it in money, why do you accept it in God.

ALL the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus bodily. Colossians 2:9.

He is the AUTHOR of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2)

He is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Colossians 1:17)

You don't get a part of the whole with Jesus. His blessings are full and overflowing.

 

[Cooper]

Jesus was talking about the Father

The Preeminence of Christ
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:15-17 NRSVA)

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, (John 1:18)

Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (2 Corinthians 4:4-6)

 

[Randy]

The Preeminence of Christ
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:15-17 NRSVA)

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, (John 1:18)

Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (2 Corinthians 4:4-6)

Col 1:19 - gifted and from the will of another and the other defined Jesus's being.
This also speaks of another
all things have been created through him and for him

What do you think the reason is that Jesus calls the Father His God and the only true God other than "truth"?

 

[232 Ben Yissachar]

John 8:56​

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.

​

	Genesis 15​
1​	After these things The Word of YHWH came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2​	And Abram said, Adonai YHWH, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3​	And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4​	And, behold, The Word of YHWH came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5​	And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6​	And he believed in YHWH; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

John 1:1​	In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with Elohim, and the Word was EL.
2​	The same was in the beginning with Elohim.
3​	All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Then YESHUA says Before Abraham was Ego Eimi I AM, which really sent the deity deniers into a tizzy, wanting to kill Him, they understood what He was saying.

Exodus 3:14 in the septuagint reads

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῗς τοῗς υἱοῗς Ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

ἐγώ I
εἰμι AM
ὁ The
ὤν Being

John 8:58 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

γενέσθαι - came into existence

John 8:24 εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν

ὅτι - That
ἀποθανεῖσθε - you will die

 

[Cooper]

Col 1:19 - gifted and from the will of another and the other defined Jesus's being.
This also speaks of another
all things have been created through him and for him

What do you think the reason is that Jesus calls the Father His God and the only true God other than "truth"?

The short answer is—Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. There is only one God and to separate the two natures, the early church depicted God on earth as the Son, and God in heaven as the Father, but there is only One God over all. It sounds like they are two, but in reality, Father and Son are One divine being. God had to be like us, to take away the sins of man. Such is the love of God for us.

 

[Edward]

The short answer is—Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. There is only one God and to separate the two natures, the early church depicted God on earth as the Son, and God in heaven as the Father, but there is only One God over all. It sounds like they are two, but in reality, Father and Son are One divine being. God had to be like us, to take away the sins of man. Such is the love of God for us.

I agree. That all makes perfect sense and rings of truth.

But it makes me wonder, tis is an awful big project that the Lord has going on here. So before they said, let us make man in our image...since scripture says He knew us before the foundation of the world, so we were there first, as spirits, right? And what need was being filled by, I know! Lets send all these people down to earth to be beat on and suffer!
Good Brothers and Sisters have said, I would not have asked to come here to suffer through what I have...!! And those are heartfelt sentiments.
And I think, maybe, perhaps...I might have some insight as to why we would maybe sign up for such suffering.

As far as most enlightened folks go, it's getting widely known and accepted that, we are here to learn to Love. (AT Least). Earth is God's University of Brotherly Love. Can you be dropped into a cesspool with your memory wiped of love, and learn to love and bless those who would do you and have done you the most harm? There is no doubt that suffering wrongs teaches us quite a bit. Suffering hardship or health problems either forces us to learn and mature and grow even if it has a bad taste. But!

Imagine us being in Heaven before the foundation of the world. We are spirit beings clothed in light just as God is, but we have never experienced hardship or health problems or being backstabbed by a close friend. How does that feel? It's hard to imagine those things when we did not posses any knowledge of good and evil.

And one of us opened their big mouth and said, Daddy teach us these things...and we're all the ones who signed up for the class! So we prolly get promoted when we return, if we pass the class, lol!

But we would have known and learned a lot of God the Fathers wisdom that we didn't know before and we'll enjoy a closer relatioship with Him because of our experience on earth. And that should be nice I think.
It's true that I haven't enjoyed many experiences in my life here, but if I thought it was going to be worth it before I came here even with prior knowledge that these things will come to you...then I'ma' gonna have to trust the spirit on this one and say, It has to be worth it!
Perspective change! SO now, every bad encounter or event that happens has become an oppurtunity to...pass that test of our faith and go through situations in life without sinning. It's not that hard to do the right thing! What if we always made sure that we did the best thing possible in any given situation here.

Wow.

 

[Edward]

Remember that drug addict guy? Well that's the guy who said what's a drug addict? what are drugs? So boom here is is strung out on whatever. When that Brother gets back to Heaven, he's going to know all about drugs and addictions. I presume we will be able to retain our earthly memories.

Their recording it all anyway. In school that video day sometimes. Well, in Heaven you can step into the video that you're watching. For the experience and the feel of the moment.

So that's why scripture says, rejoice in your tribulations and hardships! Here's the oppurtunity to be learning as much as possible. Do you want to graduate with Honors? Or is squeaking by with a D- ok?
Build up your treasures in Heaven...hmmm.

I bet when we get back that we can go sit in the library room and pop in whatever chapters of your life that you might want to study some more for the hindsight that it teaches. But we'll have full knowledge of exactly what was happening and what were the lies at that moment. Like watching a movie.

 

[Free]

The short answer is—Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. There is only one God and to separate the two natures, the early church depicted God on earth as the Son, and God in heaven as the Father, but there is only One God over all. It sounds like they are two, but in reality, Father and Son are One divine being. God had to be like us, to take away the sins of man. Such is the love of God for us.

If you mean One divine being, two persons (three with the Holy Spirit), having coexisted for eternity past, then yes.