Jesus Is God: Part 1

[Free]

After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

“In the Spirit” does not mean “out of body.” There is still nothing to suggest that it wasn’t a vision. Rev 1:1 applies to the whole book.

 

[Butch5]

Don't you mean that was John, in revelation? It is about the resurection but when Paul was taken up, and didn't know if he was in the spirit or in the flesh, that was because he could not tell because he could see and touch and hear and smell, he had all of his senses.

But it doesn't mean that we do or do not have a spirit within us. It means he couldn't tell. But if we can agree that the flesh passes away and we put on immortality...it's describing that we do have a spirit and that we 'put on' our immortality (our new heavenly spiritual body).

It will be an upgrade. But it will be a body. With you inside of it, like you are now!

If you find this hard to believe, then just who is it, that "puts on' immortality?

Hi Edward, I believe I said John, didn't I?

In the passage in 2 Cor. Paul talks of an earthly tent and a heavenly house. He talks of being in the earthly tent and wanting to put on house from Heaven. As we follow his argument he talks about mortality putting on immortality. We can see his argument, the earthly tent is mortality, our current state. He says this mortality must put on immortality, that's the house from Heaven. But, he uses a word that means to put on over. Like one puts a coat over their clothes. He wants to put immortality on over his mortality. He's not looking to shed his body. He equates that with being found naked. It was the Greeks who hoped to shed the body. In Greek thinking the flesh was evil and man's goal was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. That's why, at Mars Hill where Paul was preaching, the Greeks rejected his message when he began to speak of the resurrection. To the Greeks this would make no sense. Their goal was to escape the body, why would they then want to be resurrected? They'd be back in the body. They saw the flesh as corrupt so to them a resurrection was horrifying.

Regarding the passage about a man being caught up, Paul said he didnt know. I tend to think these events were visions of some sort. The reason is that John wrote his Gospel about 60 years after Christ ascended and after Paul died. In his Gospel he said that no one has ascended to Heaven except Jesus. So, I'm not really sure what to make of that passage about the man caught up. But, the passage does say a man was caught up. It doesn't say a spirit was caught up. In Gen 2:7 the body God created is called a man. This seems to indicate to me that if someone was actually taken to Heaven it was bodily.

 

[Butch5]

Hey guys, I've been really busy at work. I'm not ignoring anyone's posts. I'll try to get to them as quickly as I can, but it may be a few days

 

[Randy]

“In the Spirit” does not mean “out of body.” There is still nothing to suggest that it wasn’t a vision. Rev 1:1 applies to the whole book.

I disagree with you it does mean out of the body as in the spirit. As in come up here.

I not saying this was John but John was caught up to the 3rd heaven in the spirit.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

 

[Randy]

As was already given:
A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God a ; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Lords faithful witness is in his heavenly dwelling with the Lord as his earthly tent was killed

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit

 

[Free]

I disagree with you it does mean out of the body as in the spirit. As in come up here.

Again, there is nothing to suggest such a thing. You are too certain about something that the text doesn’t make clear.

I not saying this was John but John was caught up to the 3rd heaven in the spirit.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

Okay.

I don’t understand what any of this has to do with the topic, the fact that Jesus is God.

 

[Randy]

Again, there is nothing to suggest such a thing. You are too certain about something that the text doesn’t make clear.


Okay.

I don’t understand what any of this has to do with the topic, the fact that Jesus is God.

Its clear to me.
"there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you

At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

 

[Free]

Its clear to me.
"there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you

At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

The interesting thing is, even the translation you are using disagrees (it says “Spirit” not “spirit”; capitalized it always refers to the Holy Spirit).

Anyway, this is off topic, so I won’t address this anymore.

 

[Randy]

The interesting thing is, even the translation you are using disagrees (it says “Spirit” not “spirit”; capitalized it always refers to the Holy Spirit).

Anyway, this is off topic, so I won’t address this anymore.

It's clear to me.

 

[Randy]

The interesting thing is, even the translation you are using disagrees (it says “Spirit” not “spirit”; capitalized it always refers to the Holy Spirit).

Anyway, this is off topic, so I won’t address this anymore.

It started because I believe Jesus alive in His spirit had authority to take up His life again by the Spirit of God.
So Jesus taking up His life again and God raising Jesus from the dead are both true statements. Butch thinks Jesus was dead and couldn't take up His life again. I only see "put to death in the flesh". And that man can kill the body but not the soul.

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

 

[Butch5]

While I do agree with your analysis, that it would support Modalism as presented, I have used the argument to the triple point of water. In thermodynamics, the triple point of a substance is when under a certain pressure and at a certain temperature, a substance simultaneously exists as a solid, liquid, and gas (thermodynamic equilibrium).

So, if something as simple as water can coexist as solid, liquid, and gas--one substance in three states--is it so inconceivable that the one God who created water can coexist as three persons?

I would ask, are they the same molecules? In other words, Is a given molecule existing in all three states simultaneously?

This wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that we have crystal clear statements saying there is one God and that it is the Father who is that one God

Let's suppose it is possible for one God to simultaneously exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Why would I accept that concept when its found nowhere in Scripture and Scripture does tell us that there is one God who is the Father?

That's the most baffling part of all of this. Christians say they believe the Bible yet argue vehemently for a doctrine that isn't found in the Bible and is refuted by the Bible? Jesus Himself, who they say is this God, said plainly that the Father is the only true God. If Jesus denies being the true God, why do people argue that He is? I mean, John the Baptist said he was not the Christ and Christians accept his words, yet when Jesus denies being the True God they don't accept His words.

 

[Butch5]

The man was considered flesh after the fall. But how do you reconcile this scripture from Ezekial?

Ezekial 36:26=27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.../

Question. Are you Born Again?
If yes, then what is this saying here? He directly refers to our spirit as being not 'only' His Spirit, which is here too...

To answer your question, yes.

The passage says that God would put a new spirit or breath in them. Firstly, notice the word "you". He said, I will put a new spirit in you. So obviously the spirit isn't them as it's being put into them. So, this doesn't make the case that man is a spirit. Since He's talking about giving them a new heart, I doubt that's literal, I don't think they have a chunk of rock pumping blood through their bodies, it seems to me that He's talking about who they are as a person, how they live and interact with others. A stoney heart seems to represent someone who is cold and uncaring. It seems He's going to change that about them. In this context, giving them a new spirit would indicate to me something along those same lines. Giving them a spirit of compassion as opposed to indifference. But, let me make clear that when i say spirit I'm using it figuratively in the sense of say, school spirit or team spirit, not in the sense of a living entity

 

[Butch5]

I think your missing the point.
Take your hand and put it next to your mouth or nose while you inhale and exhale. Do you feel the wind?
All of our life we are binging life into us, and life is going out of us. It is our breath that fogs up our glasses, or allows is to utter kind and loving words. Our breath provides oxygen for our muscles to wrap our arms around those we love, or help the elderly with tasks.
Everything we do starts with our breath. The question is, what do we do with that breath?

I'm not following you here

 

[Cooper]

I would ask, are they the same molecules? In other words, Is a given molecule existing in all three states simultaneously?

This wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that we have crystal clear statements saying there is one God and that it is the Father who is that one God

Let's suppose it is possible for one God to simultaneously exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Why would I accept that concept when its found nowhere in Scripture and Scripture does tell us that there is one God who is the Father?

That's the most baffling part of all of this. Christians say they believe the Bible yet argue vehemently for a doctrine that isn't found in the Bible and is refuted by the Bible? Jesus Himself, who they say is this God, said plainly that the Father is the only true God. If Jesus denies being the true God, why do people argue that He is? I mean, John the Baptist said he was not the Christ and Christians accept his words, yet when Jesus denies being the True God they don't accept His words.

I am sick and tired of all the anti-Christ posts, especially from people who claim to be Christians. I have said this before and I will say it again, there is only one God, and he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He inhabits the whole of eternity, only the name changes. I have explained it numerous times and illustrated with Cliff Richard, who was born "Harry Rodger Webb." Only the name is different, it is the same person or in this case the same God. How many more times do I have to say this? For your edification, here is Jesus in the Old Testament. There are many more.

1 Kings 18 He is our chief prophet and teacher who restores true religion by calling us away from our idols to return to the One True God.

1 Kings 8; 2 Chron. 3 He is the very temple of God, which though destroyed was raised again in 3 days

2 Sam. 7 He is the offspring of David whose kingdom has been established forever

Dan. 7 He is the Son of Man whom the Ancient of Days gives all dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion

Deut. 28 He gives us every blessing for his obedience to God’s perfect commands, and he paid the price for the curse we deserved for our every disobedience.

Ecclesiastes He is the only purpose in life that matters.

Exod. 12 He is the Passover Lamb who was slain to protect God’s people from the Angel of Death.

Exod. 12-14 He is the greater son of Israel who came out of Egypt, and He is the great redeemer who brings his people out of bondage and slavery that is far worse than anything the Israelites experienced there.

Exod. 16 He is the true bread from heaven that actually nourishes and feeds his people.

Exod. 17 He is the Rock from whom the only life-giving water flows.

Exod. 20 He is the fulfilment of the Law, perfectly obeying not only the 10 Commandments but all 613 from the day of his birth.

Exod. 23:10-12 He is the One through whom we enter into our lasting Sabbath rest, not just for one day out of seven, but for every day from now through all eternity.

Exod. 28-29 He is our great High Priest who offers his very body as an atonement for the sins of his people.

Exod. 40:34-38 He is the radiance of God, the exact representation of his being, and is the very presence and glory of God among his people, even more than the ark or the pillars of cloud and fire.

Ezek. 37 He brings life to dead men’s bones; by his Spirit he causes breath to come where death had reigned.

Ezra 7 He is leading a remnant out of Babylon back to the Holy Land

Gen. 12:3 He is the descendent of Abraham.

Gen. 3:15 He is the promised seed of Adam who would crush Satan’s head.

Gen. 49:8-12 He is the son of Judah, who reigns eternally as king, whose garments are washed in the blood of grapes, and whose hand is on the neck of his enemies.

Habakkuk 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Hosea 1-3. He is the merciful husband who takes back his unfaithful wife and allows us to once again call him “My husband” rather than “My Baal”

Isaiah 11 He is the shoot coming from the stump of Jesse, and righteousness will be the belt of his waist. During his reign, the wolf will dwell with the lamb and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together, and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 40 In his coming, the glory of the Lord is revealed and all flesh shall see it together.

Isaiah 42 He is the Lord’s servant, in whom his soul delights, and with whom he is very well pleased.

Isaiah 43 He is Israel’s only saviour and besides him, there is no other.

Isaiah 53 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. He is the one who bore our griefs and carried our sorrows. He was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes, we were healed.

Isaiah 61. He is anointed by the Lord to preach good news to the poor, to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prisons to those who are bound. He proclaims the year of the Lord’s favour, and the day of vengeance of our God; and he comforts all who mourn

Isaiah 65 He creates the new heavens and the new earth and he will dwell with his people there forever.

Isaiah 7 He is the sign to Ahaz, one named Immanuel and born to a virgin

Isaiah 9 He is the great light shining to a people walking in darkness, coming out of Galilee of the nations; He is the child born who is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace, there will be no end, and on the throne of David and over his kingdom, he will establish and uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.

There are as many again if you would like me to post them.

 

[Butch5]

I am sick and tired of all the anti-Christ posts, especially from people who claim to be Christians. I have said this before and I will say it again, there is only one God, and he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He inhabits the whole of eternity, only the name changes. I have explained it numerous times and illustrated with Cliff Richard, who was born "Harry Rodger Webb." Only the name is different, it is the same person or in this case the same God. How many more times do I have to say this? For your edification, here is Jesus in the Old Testament. There are many more.

1 Kings 18 He is our chief prophet and teacher who restores true religion by calling us away from our idols to return to the One True God.

1 Kings 8; 2 Chron. 3 He is the very temple of God, which though destroyed was raised again in 3 days

2 Sam. 7 He is the offspring of David whose kingdom has been established forever

Dan. 7 He is the Son of Man whom the Ancient of Days gives all dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion

Deut. 28 He gives us every blessing for his obedience to God’s perfect commands, and he paid the price for the curse we deserved for our every disobedience.

Ecclesiastes He is the only purpose in life that matters.

Exod. 12 He is the Passover Lamb who was slain to protect God’s people from the Angel of Death.

Exod. 12-14 He is the greater son of Israel who came out of Egypt, and He is the great redeemer who brings his people out of bondage and slavery that is far worse than anything the Israelites experienced there.

Exod. 16 He is the true bread from heaven that actually nourishes and feeds his people.

Exod. 17 He is the Rock from whom the only life-giving water flows.

Exod. 20 He is the fulfilment of the Law, perfectly obeying not only the 10 Commandments but all 613 from the day of his birth.

Exod. 23:10-12 He is the One through whom we enter into our lasting Sabbath rest, not just for one day out of seven, but for every day from now through all eternity.

Exod. 28-29 He is our great High Priest who offers his very body as an atonement for the sins of his people.

Exod. 40:34-38 He is the radiance of God, the exact representation of his being, and is the very presence and glory of God among his people, even more than the ark or the pillars of cloud and fire.

Ezek. 37 He brings life to dead men’s bones; by his Spirit he causes breath to come where death had reigned.

Ezra 7 He is leading a remnant out of Babylon back to the Holy Land

Gen. 12:3 He is the descendent of Abraham.

Gen. 3:15 He is the promised seed of Adam who would crush Satan’s head.

Gen. 49:8-12 He is the son of Judah, who reigns eternally as king, whose garments are washed in the blood of grapes, and whose hand is on the neck of his enemies.

Habakkuk 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Hosea 1-3. He is the merciful husband who takes back his unfaithful wife and allows us to once again call him “My husband” rather than “My Baal”

Isaiah 11 He is the shoot coming from the stump of Jesse, and righteousness will be the belt of his waist. During his reign, the wolf will dwell with the lamb and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together, and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 40 In his coming, the glory of the Lord is revealed and all flesh shall see it together.

Isaiah 42 He is the Lord’s servant, in whom his soul delights, and with whom he is very well pleased.

Isaiah 43 He is Israel’s only saviour and besides him, there is no other.

Isaiah 53 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. He is the one who bore our griefs and carried our sorrows. He was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes, we were healed.

Isaiah 61. He is anointed by the Lord to preach good news to the poor, to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prisons to those who are bound. He proclaims the year of the Lord’s favour, and the day of vengeance of our God; and he comforts all who mourn

Isaiah 65 He creates the new heavens and the new earth and he will dwell with his people there forever.

Isaiah 7 He is the sign to Ahaz, one named Immanuel and born to a virgin

Isaiah 9 He is the great light shining to a people walking in darkness, coming out of Galilee of the nations; He is the child born who is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace, there will be no end, and on the throne of David and over his kingdom, he will establish and uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.

There are as many again if you would like me to post them.

Then maybe you shouldn't follow this thread. However, there are people are interested in more than propaganda. Some people actually want to things. Iron sharpens iron. If you're easily offended maybe this isn't the tread for you.

 

[Cooper]

Then maybe you shouldn't follow this thread. However, there are people are interested in more than propaganda. Some people actually want to things. Iron sharpens iron. If you're easily offended maybe this isn't the tread for you.

It is better for you to tangle with me than to stand before Jesus on judgement day.

 

[Butch5]

It is better for you to tangle with me than to stand before Jesus on judgement day.

We'll all stand before Jesus. But, I dont think He'll condemn people for not believing the 3 in 1 concept. After all, He didn't believe it either.

John 17:3 (KJV 1900): And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[Free]

I would ask, are they the same molecules? In other words, Is a given molecule existing in all three states simultaneously?

They are the same nature, that is what is in view when we say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God--all God in nature. Of course, as with all analogies for the nature of God, the triple-point of water has its limitations.

This wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that we have crystal clear statements saying there is one God and that it is the Father who is that one God

But we also have crystal clear statements that the Son is God (John 1:1, 18; 1 Cor 8:4-6; Phil 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8; 2 Pet 1:1), as well as many others that imply he is God.

Let's suppose it is possible for one God to simultaneously exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Why would I accept that concept when its found nowhere in Scripture and Scripture does tell us that there is one God who is the Father?

It is found in Scripture, that is rather the point.

That's the most baffling part of all of this. Christians say they believe the Bible yet argue vehemently for a doctrine that isn't found in the Bible and is refuted by the Bible?

Christians haven't argued for the doctrine of the Trinity for centuries--with the belief that Jesus is God, yet not the Father, since at least the early second century (outside of Scripture)--out of thin air. That Jesus is God has been a belief since the earliest of times precisely because it is found in Scripture.

This is what Scripture reveals and what we are trying to make sense of:

1. There was, is, and always will be only one being that is God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. The Father isn't the Son, the Son isn't the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit isn't the Father.
6. They all coexist.

There is only one logical conclusion: we have three, co-eternal, coexisting "Persons" within the one being that is God.

Jesus Himself, who they say is this God, said plainly that the Father is the only true God. If Jesus denies being the true God, why do people argue that He is? I mean, John the Baptist said he was not the Christ and Christians accept his words, yet when Jesus denies being the True God they don't accept His words.

Yet, in John 17:3, Jesus says that eternal life is based on knowing the Father and the Son, not just the Father. In verse 5 Jesus states that he shared in the Father's glory before creation, despite Yahweh saying, "My glory I will not give to another" (Isa 48:11). Jesus implies that he is God (John 8:58; 10:30, 38) and accepts the worship that is due God alone (Matt 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28).

Therefore, we must look for reasonable explanations as to why he refers to the Father as the only true God. One plausible explanation is that Jesus is affirming monotheism. If he explicitly states that he is God, then that would appear to support polytheism. His statement, however, does not mean that Jesus is not God. To argue that it does, would be he is either a false god or some lesser god.

 

[Cooper]

We'll all stand before Jesus. But, I dont think He'll condemn people for not believing the 3 in 1 concept. After all, He didn't believe it either.

John 17:3 (KJV 1900): And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Point 1. Here you deny Jesus yet again. A follower of Christ would never deliberately do that.

Point 2. Eternal life comes from knowing God AND Jesus Christ.

Point 3. The fact that His Name is mentioned together with God the Father's as being the joint source of eternal life means they are equal.

Point 4. This is Jesus speaking, and it disproves the charge that Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah.

Point 5. You only quoted part of what Jesus said. If you had quoted it all, you would know Jesus had God's Glory before the world was.
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE the world was. Joh 17:3-5”

Point 6. Jesus (God's name on earth) with the Father before the world was proves two persons of the Trinity.

Point 7. There is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Your argument doesn't follow