Jesus is not YHVH

[stovebolts]

Many believe that Jesus is YHVH.
For starters, Jehovah, Yahweh and LORD are translations of the four letters denoting God's name as I shall refer to as YHVH. Notice that in LORD, they are all caps. In your translations, when you see LORD in all CAPS, it could have been translated as Jehovah or Yahweh and in it's original language, it is represented as four characters I'll represent as YHVH. Do not mistake LORD for Lord as they are two different words with two completely different meanings within the OT writings.

Many who believe that Jesus is YHVH use John 1 as their proof texts.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

This is a direct reference to Genesis 1
Genesis 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

We see that God created the heaven and the earth, and it is empty and void... etc. Please note that the text does not state how God created the heavens and earth, but only that God had created them. And after describing what God's heaven and earth was, God utters... and when God utters, we see His Word. And not only do we see his word, but God reveals that which was in him. And that which was in Him, was made known to His creation as light.

There is much we could say about this Light. Light is created and darkness is the absence of light. Light penetrates through the darkness for darkness is that which has not been created and that which has not been created, if full of chaos and un-comprehension. It is without order or form, and is void of structure. And God divided the light from the dark, and this was the first day. Light always brings clarity and Jesus is that Light.

Colossians 1:13-17 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

We see here in Paul's writing that Jesus is the image of the invisible God (YHVH). But for the sake of this OP, we shall surely see that "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth"
Paul not only states that Jesus is the Son of God, but he stays true to the account of Moses in Genesis 1. Hence, all things in heaven and in earth. Paul makes no claim that Jesus created either heaven or earth, but true to the creation account, God's word created all things in heaven and earth as he uttered them day by day.

 

[jocor]

Colossians 1:13-17 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

We see here in Paul's writing that Jesus is the image of the invisible God (YHVH). But for the sake of this OP, we shall surely see that "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth"
Paul not only states that Jesus is the Son of God, but he stays true to the account of Moses in Genesis 1. Hence, all things in heaven and in earth. Paul makes no claim that Jesus created either heaven or earth, but true to the creation account, God's word created all things in heaven and earth as he uttered them day by day.

Thanks for the new thread StoveBolts. I understand the creation differently. You are suggesting that YHVH created the heavens and the earth and that the Son then created everything in the heaven and earth. That is not what the following verses say in reference to YHWH;

Exodus 20:11 For in six days YHWH made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore YHWH blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Psa 146:5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in YHWH his God:
Psa 146:6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:

Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord (referring to YHWH), thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Yeshua, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
​

I believe the translation of Col 1:16 is misleading and is based on the translator's preconceived ideas. Since the translators understood Yeshua to be the eternal "Word" and a member of the "Holy Trinity", they assumed he had a hand in creation. So they translated the Greek word "en" as "by" in verse 16a and 17, instead of "in" which is correct. This can be seen more clearly in Ephesians 2:10;

"For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
​

This verse teaches that Yahweh created "in" Yeshua, not "by" Yeshua.

They also translated the Greek word "dia" as "by" in verse 16b, instead of "through". All things were created by Yahweh through Yeshua and for Yeshua.

I believe the ASV and YLT (among others) have it correct:

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
​

I believe everything was created by YHWH alone (all by Himself) by speaking things into existence:

Isa 44:24 Thus saith YHWH, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Psalm 33:6; "By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth."​

 

[JohnDB]

OK. I understand that Jesus is the agent of Creation.
John 1 says that.

Where God, the Father, may have spoken most of Creation into existence which Jesus fulfilled it was a "group" effort for mankind as well as a hands on project. The intimacy for man was vastly increased for the pinnacle of God's creation.

 

[stovebolts]

jocor
I don't have a problem translating en as in. Actually, it adds depth and echo's the words of Jesus.
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

You cannot separate the Word from the Speaker.

Have you ever considered this? Genesis 1:24-25 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind: and it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

We see here that God has empowered the earth to bring forth living creatures. Yet, God is still credited with making the beasts of the earth.

Did the earth bring forth the living creatures? According to the text living creatures were brought forth by the earth. Yet this does not detract that God created all living beasts. Not only that, but God, through his creation empowered the living creatures to multiply. So we know that a cow comes from a cow. Yet we don't find any difficulty stating that God made the cow.
.
In a much more superior manner, we clearly see that God creates by his Word, "And God said"... and I find it exciting that Light is the first manifestation of God's utterance.

 

[jocor]

OK. I understand that Jesus is the agent of Creation.
John 1 says that.

John 1 says that in the KJV and other later versions, but it doesn't say that in versions that preceded the KJV. Here are a few examples of how preceding versions did not read the Son into the text.

"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men." Tyndale's translation.
"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men." Matthew's Bible.
"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
"All thinges were made by it, & wythout it, was made nothynge that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men." The Great Bible (Cranmer's Bible).
"All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and that life was the light of men."
The Geneva Bible - This Bible became the "household Bible of the English-speaking nations." It held that position for about 75 years. It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England.
"All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men" The Bishop's Bible
​

To these translators, the "logos" was a thing, not a person.

​

 

[stovebolts]

To these translators, the "logos" was a thing, not a person.

Typical. Jews are focused on doing (Verb based). Gentiles are focused on things (Noun based).

Two different ways at looking at thing. We look at a door as a thing... They would look at it for what it does.
We see it as an object with dimension. They see it for it's purpose.

 

[jasonc]

Typical. Jews are focused on doing (Verb based). Gentiles are focused on things (Noun based).

Two different ways at looking at thing. We look at a door as a thing... They would look at it for what it does.
We see it as an object with dimension. They see it for it's purpose.

rambam again?

 

[jocor]

jocor
I don't have a problem translating en as in. Actually, it adds depth and echo's the words of Jesus.
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

You cannot separate the Word from the Speaker.

I agree. Yet, that is exactly what people do to John 1. They, IMO, are separating God's word (logos) from God (YHWH) and making it a separate person.

Have you ever considered this? Genesis 1:24-25 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind: and it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

We see here that God has empowered the earth to bring forth living creatures. Yet, God is still credited with making the beasts of the earth.

Did the earth bring forth the living creatures? According to the text living creatures were brought forth by the earth. Yet this does not detract that God created all living beasts. Not only that, but God, through his creation empowered the living creatures to multiply. So we know that a cow comes from a cow. Yet we don't find any difficulty stating that God made the cow.
.
In a much more superior manner, we clearly see that God creates by his Word, "And God said"... and I find it exciting that Light is the first manifestation of God's utterance.

God commanded that the earth bring forth .... The earth is not a living being that then obeyed YHWH and created living creatures. YHWH created those creatures from the earth. That is why verse 25 says, "And God made ..." On the other hand, I know of no verse where God clearly told the Son to create anything.

 

[jocor]

Typical. Jews are focused on doing (Verb based). Gentiles are focused on things (Noun based).

Two different ways at looking at thing. We look at a door as a thing... They would look at it for what it does.
We see it as an object with dimension. They see it for it's purpose.

Are you implying that pre KJV translators were Gentiles seeing the logos as a thing, but post KJV translators were Jews seeing the logos as something else? I don't see how this relates since, in either case (it or him), the logos is noun based.

 

[stovebolts]

rambam again?

No. It came from a man who was a linguist that I know.

 

[Free]

Many believe that Jesus is YHVH.
For starters, Jehovah, Yahweh and LORD are translations of the four letters denoting God's name as I shall refer to as YHVH. Notice that in LORD, they are all caps. In your translations, when you see LORD in all CAPS, it could have been translated as Jehovah or Yahweh and in it's original language, it is represented as four characters I'll represent as YHVH. Do not mistake LORD for Lord as they are two different words with two completely different meanings within the OT writings.

Many who believe that Jesus is YHVH use John 1 as their proof texts.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

This is a direct reference to Genesis 1
Genesis 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

We see that God created the heaven and the earth, and it is empty and void... etc. Please note that the text does not state how God created the heavens and earth, but only that God had created them. And after describing what God's heaven and earth was, God utters... and when God utters, we see His Word. And not only do we see his word, but God reveals that which was in him. And that which was in Him, was made known to His creation as light.

There is much we could say about this Light. Light is created and darkness is the absence of light. Light penetrates through the darkness for darkness is that which has not been created and that which has not been created, if full of chaos and un-comprehension. It is without order or form, and is void of structure. And God divided the light from the dark, and this was the first day. Light always brings clarity and Jesus is that Light.

Colossians 1:13-17 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

We see here in Paul's writing that Jesus is the image of the invisible God (YHVH). But for the sake of this OP, we shall surely see that "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth"
Paul not only states that Jesus is the Son of God, but he stays true to the account of Moses in Genesis 1. Hence, all things in heaven and in earth. Paul makes no claim that Jesus created either heaven or earth, but true to the creation account, God's word created all things in heaven and earth as he uttered them day by day.

But you seem to have missed the obvious: if "by [Jesus] were all things created," as Paul states, then the only logical conclusion is that Jesus cannot be one of those created things, or there is a contradiction.

And you are mistaken further. The very text you quote states, "all things were created by him, and for him," but you said that "Paul makes no claim that Jesus created either heaven or earth." Even if one wants to argue that it should be "through him" and not "by him," the meaning is essentially the same--in one way or another, Jesus was active in creation.

We should also note that Paul says, "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Again, we see that Jesus existed before all things, and this is perfectly consistent with John 1:1-3, not to mention 1 Cor 8:6, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (ESV)

The evidence is clear: Jesus existed before any created thing existed, which means that he cannot be one of those created things.Since there is only one God, YHVH, the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is also YHVH.

 

[stovebolts]

Are you implying that pre KJV translators were Gentiles seeing the logos as a thing, but post KJV translators were Jews seeing the logos as something else? I don't see how this relates since, in either case (it or him), the logos is noun based.

My intent was not to imply anything of the sort.
I do not know the nuances in the greek language. What I do understand is that Jews and Gentiles can look at the same object and look at it different. This is why Jews look for signs and gentiles look for wisdom. You can look at a noun, and see it as a sign with an emphasis on the supporting verbs, or you can view it as wisdom and sometimes miss the verb all together .

Any how, sorry for the side track.

 

[JLB]

OK. I understand that Jesus is the agent of Creation.
John 1 says that.

Where God, the Father, may have spoken most of Creation into existence which Jesus fulfilled it was a "group" effort for mankind as well as a hands on project. The intimacy for man was vastly increased for the pinnacle of God's creation.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16-17


Elohim, The Godhead creates light.

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. Genesis 1:3

It was God the Father's will that there be light.

The Word, Jesus, spoke light out of darkness.

The Holy Spirit manifested light from the spoken Word.


Elohim raised Jesus from the dead. The Godhead.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11

Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
But He was speaking of the temple of His body. John 2:19-21

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

John 1 says that in the KJV and other later versions, but it doesn't say that in versions that preceded the KJV. Here are a few examples of how preceding versions did not read the Son into the text.

"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men." Tyndale's translation.
"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men." Matthew's Bible.
"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
"All thinges were made by it, & wythout it, was made nothynge that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men." The Great Bible (Cranmer's Bible).
"All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and that life was the light of men."
The Geneva Bible - This Bible became the "household Bible of the English-speaking nations." It held that position for about 75 years. It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England.
"All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men" The Bishop's Bible
​

To these translators, the "logos" was a thing, not a person.

​

Neuter and male are the same in early Latin/Greek. John uses this as a way to make a wordplay that becomes evident in verse 14: "...and the Wurd became flesh".

I use this spelling of wurd as it is not perceived the same as the flat reading you are giving it. The wurd was an incantation of sorts where some of the person speaking it was put into these and it was indeed alive...so calling a wurd an "it" really isn't accurate.

As always context is king and some anthropology studies would make this clear.

 

[stovebolts]

The evidence is clear: Jesus existed before any created thing existed, which means that he cannot be one of those created things.Since there is only one God, YHVH, the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is also YHVH.

I have not denied that Jesus existed before any created thing existed and I have not stated that Jesus himself was a created thing. If this is your conclusion of what I have written, then please, read very carefully each word of mine and you will see that I have made no such inference that Jesus was created.

As John writes, the Word was with God and as Jesus says, "I am in the Father, and the Father in I". Jesus also says that it is His Father in Him who does the works.

When "God says"... It is God who is doing the work, but he does it through His Word. You cannot separate God and His Word nor can one say that God's Word didn't exist before he spoke it. Words exists within the heart, and they are simply made known to others when they are spoken. Words are very powerful... because sticks and stones do break bones, and words can forever scar you...

 

[JohnDB]

And I love how this bit of "alternative"/non-traditional theology is pretty much destroyed in a few posts with lots of scripture and proper hermeneutics.

 

[jasonc]

No. It came from a man who was a linguist that I know.

Ok.well the nature of the Elohim is plural ,unless you want to state the we is the angels ,God, and the earth.
I believe the the YHWH is the Father.the Son has the same nature as the Father

 

[Free]

I have not denied that Jesus existed before any created thing existed and I have not stated that Jesus himself was a created thing. If this is your conclusion of what I have written, then please, read very carefully each word of mine and you will see that I have made no such inference that Jesus was created.

As John writes, the Word was with God and as Jesus says, "I am in the Father, and the Father in I". Jesus also says that it is His Father in Him who does the works.

When "God says"... It is God who is doing the work, but he does it through His Word. You cannot separate God and His Word nor can one say that God's Word didn't exist before he spoke it. Words exists within the heart, and they are simply made known to others when they are spoken. Words are very powerful... because sticks and stones do break bones, and words can forever scar you...

Who is God?

 

[JLB]

Thanks for the new thread StoveBolts. I understand the creation differently. You are suggesting that YHVH created the heavens and the earth and that the Son then created everything in the heaven and earth. That is not what the following verses say in reference to YHWH;

Exodus 20:11 For in six days YHWH made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore YHWH blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Psa 146:5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in YHWH his God:
Psa 146:6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:

Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord (referring to YHWH), thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Yeshua, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
​

I believe the translation of Col 1:16 is misleading and is based on the translator's preconceived ideas. Since the translators understood Yeshua to be the eternal "Word" and a member of the "Holy Trinity", they assumed he had a hand in creation. So they translated the Greek word "en" as "by" in verse 16a and 17, instead of "in" which is correct. This can be seen more clearly in Ephesians 2:10;

"For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
​

This verse teaches that Yahweh created "in" Yeshua, not "by" Yeshua.

They also translated the Greek word "dia" as "by" in verse 16b, instead of "through". All things were created by Yahweh through Yeshua and for Yeshua.

I believe the ASV and YLT (among others) have it correct:

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
​

I believe everything was created by YHWH alone (all by Himself) by speaking things into existence:

Isa 44:24 Thus saith YHWH, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Psalm 33:6; "By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth."​

Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God, the Savior of Israel.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1.10

...then they will look on Me whom they pierced, it the Lord revealing the sufferings He would endure on the cross.


It is clear that YHWH is speaking through the mouth of Zechariah, as He did through all the mouth of the prophets.


Peter reveals to us, this was in fact the Spirit of Christ in the OT prophets speaking and revealing of the sufferings He would undertake as a man.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Zechariah said these words:

Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Isaiah, said these words:

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:3,11



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Ok.well the nature of the Elohim is plural ,unless you want to state the we is the angels ,God, and the earth.
I believe the the YHWH is the Father.the Son has the same nature as the Father

Yes, Elohim is plural. It is also a borrowed word from the Ancient Near East and is found in the oldest documents we have. Which, by the way predate the Bible. In these accounts we read of the stories of Gilgamesh, floods and cosmic battles with Tiamat and other dieties.
Within the structure of Elohim we see that Elohim is plural and is represented by the "King of kings, Lord of lords". The name of the Elohim is El and is singular, yet is encompasses plurality.

In like, Genesis 1 is an Eloyhist text. You will not find one mention of God's name YHVH until Genesis 2. Also, in many places you will find YHVH our Elohim.

As far as "We", if I know you like I think I know you Jason, you are speaking of "Let us make man in our image"? If I am correct, then that topic is really outside the scope of this discussion.

And boy... do I need to get off this computer. I've got a honey do list that needs to get done...