Jesus is not YHVH

[stovebolts]

Who is God?

I'll only be online till quarter before the hour.
What do you mean, "Who is God"?

 

[Free]

Just as an aside, here is the first part of three in which Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason shows why the doctrine of the Trinity is so important: http://www.str.org/Media/Default/Publications/Solid Ground 11-2015 The Tirnity-1.pdf

It's long and I don't think most will read it based on past experience, but I hope all will make the effort.

 

[Free]

I'll only be online till quarter before the hour.
What do you mean, "Who is God"?

Well, you seem to not believe that Jesus is God--if God is YHVH and Jesus is not YHVH, then Jesus is not God. So is God just the Father and is there evidence that this is the case?

I have to go soon too. Too much to get done.

 

[jasonc]

Abraham spoke Aramaic, not hebrew.the usage of YHWH in genesis is another topic

 

[stovebolts]

Well, you seem to not believe that Jesus is God--if God is YHVH and Jesus is not YHVH, then Jesus is not God. So is God just the Father and is there evidence that this is the case?

I have to go soon too. Too much to get done.

Yeah, this is my last post. I have a hose to wrap up and get inside before winter freezes it and ruins it, and I have to put side rails on a trailer and a few other items... but it's been fun Free. I miss our exchanges (debate and uplifting) and I hope all is well with you and your family.

I don't believe I have to be so locked into logical conclusions that drives my world view. If anything, the Bible teaches discernment, not absolutes. Though yes, there are many absolutes. Jesus tells many stories with intent, and if we look to closely at his stories with a purely logical eye, it is easy to miss the intent and thereby miss what Jesus was trying to convey and the wise an become very foolish... and not even realize they are being foolish.

I am not saying you are being foolish. Please don't take my words as being directed toward your post. I know what I have written you do not understand because it is a different way of looking at things. It's not all neat and tidy. Oneness never is neat and tidy and God is rarely neat and tidy.

Before my words multiply any further, thus showing my foolishness, I will leave you with the thought that I don't have everything defined, because God will never be fully defined. If you think you've "Nailed it", something will come along and rock your world and get you to rethink it. In short, I don't have to believe that Jesus is YHVH in order to believe the concept of the trinity and see it's beauty.

God---> (Elohim, plural)
YHVH
Jesus
Holy Spirit

 

[JohnDB]

Apprehension is not comprehension.... I apprehend but don't comprehend the Plurality of God.
2

 

[brother Paul]

John 1 says that in the KJV and other later versions, but it doesn't say that in versions that preceded the KJV. Here are a few examples of how preceding versions did not read the Son into the text.

"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men." Tyndale's translation.
"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men." Matthew's Bible.
"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
"All thinges were made by it, & wythout it, was made nothynge that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men." The Great Bible (Cranmer's Bible).
"All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and that life was the light of men."
The Geneva Bible - This Bible became the "household Bible of the English-speaking nations." It held that position for about 75 years. It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England.
"All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men" The Bishop's Bible
​

To these translators, the "logos" was a thing, not a person.

​

This is because the concept came to them from the later Greek-ized/Roman-ized theological views, Had they been familiar with the concept's Jewish roots (known as "The Memra", see http://cfbac.org/memra.htm ) they would have understood the word John chose (the closest to the concept in the Greek language) describes as being sent from YHVH (that has been coming since the everlasting past) that IS also YHVH (YHVH has become manifest in many forms, including that of a man).

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεός ἦν ὁ λόγος.[3][4]
Greek transliteration: En archē ēn ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos ēn pros ton Theón, kai Theós ēn ho Lógos.
Greek to English: In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word.

The Word was with AND is God...

Now as any can know, "YHVH" was manifest to many in the OT, yet Jesus Himself tells us no man has EVER seen the Father, it is the Son (the Word) which has declared HIm (Made Him known). So all these times that YHVH became manifest (say, as a man) who was it? It was surely YHVH but alas not the Father,,,but wait...the one and only YHVH is the Father, and IS the Word/Son, AND IS the Spirit,,,,one God who has revealed Himself in three personae...or as the ancients would say, one Ousia in three Hypostasis....

Yes YHVH IS the Son who became incarnate by the Spirit in the womb of the virgin...He is the fullness of deity bodily! YHVH, the Son (called the Son of God) became the Son of Man so that the sons of men could become the children of God.
​

 

[JLB]

Thanks for the new thread StoveBolts. I understand the creation differently. You are suggesting that YHVH created the heavens and the earth and that the Son then created everything in the heaven and earth. That is not what the following verses say in reference to YHWH;

Exodus 20:11 For in six days YHWH made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore YHWH blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Psa 146:5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in YHWH his God:
Psa 146:6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:

Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord (referring to YHWH), thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Yeshua, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
​

I believe the translation of Col 1:16 is misleading and is based on the translator's preconceived ideas. Since the translators understood Yeshua to be the eternal "Word" and a member of the "Holy Trinity", they assumed he had a hand in creation. So they translated the Greek word "en" as "by" in verse 16a and 17, instead of "in" which is correct. This can be seen more clearly in Ephesians 2:10;

"For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
​

This verse teaches that Yahweh created "in" Yeshua, not "by" Yeshua.

They also translated the Greek word "dia" as "by" in verse 16b, instead of "through". All things were created by Yahweh through Yeshua and for Yeshua.

I believe the ASV and YLT (among others) have it correct:

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
​

I believe everything was created by YHWH alone (all by Himself) by speaking things into existence:

Isa 44:24 Thus saith YHWH, thy redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Psalm 33:6; "By the word of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth."​

Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God, the Savior of Israel.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his onlyson, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1.10

...then they will look on Me whom they pierced, it is the Lord Jesus Christ revealing the sufferings He would endure on the cross.


It is clear that YHWH is speaking through the mouth of Zechariah, as He did through all the mouth of the prophets, which is the Spirit of Christ Jesus.


Peter reveals to us, this was in fact the Spirit of Christ in the OT prophets speaking and revealing of the sufferings He would undertake as a man.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Zechariah said these words:

Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Isaiah, said these words:

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:3,11


The Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of YHWH, are the Spirit of the LORD God.



JLB

 

[Roro1972]

for darkness is that which has not been created and that which has not been created, if full of chaos and un-comprehension. It is without order or form, and is void of structure

this statement contradicts your quote of Gen 1: 1-3

 

[mutzrein]

Well, you seem to not believe that Jesus is God--if God is YHVH and Jesus is not YHVH, then Jesus is not God. So is God just the Father and is there evidence that this is the case?

I have to go soon too. Too much to get done.

How would you interpret this? 'Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”'

(Be advised, all scripture must be referenced with a chapter and verse reference as well as the translation if it is a copyrighted translation. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

How would you interpret this? 'Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”'

Just as it says, Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father.

His Father is God the Father.

He is God, the Son, having been begotten of The Father.

What is it that you claim, that God would beget?

Man begets man.
Horse begets Horse.
God begets God.

King begets after its own kind.

The Son was begotten of God before the foundation of the world.


How would you interpret this verse.

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 20:28

 

[jocor]

This is because the concept came to them from the later Greek-ized/Roman-ized theological views, Had they been familiar with the concept's Jewish roots (known as "The Memra", see http://cfbac.org/memra.htm ) they would have understood the word John chose (the closest to the concept in the Greek language) describes as being sent from YHVH (that has been coming since the everlasting past) that IS also YHVH (YHVH has become manifest in many forms, including that of a man).​

Memra is not a separate and distinct person from YHWH in the Targums. It simply refers to YHWH in one way or another. It can refer to His spoken words or be used for "me" or "himself" or "YHWH".

Here is an example from the link you provided:

Genesis 15:6...And Abraham trusted in the Word of Yhvh, and He counted it to him for righteousness. (Targum Onkelos)

Gen 15:6 And he believed in YHWH; and He counted it to him for righteousness. KJV​

"The Word of Yhvh" is put for "YHWH" by men, not by YHWH.​

Here's another:

Genesis 17:7...And I will establish my covenant between My Word and between you (Targum Onkelos)

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. KJV
​

"My Word" is put for "me" by men, not by YHWH. If you choose to read Yeshua into these man-made translations, that is on you.

​

Now as any can know, "YHVH" was manifest to many in the OT, yet Jesus Himself tells us no man has EVER seen the Father, it is the Son (the Word) which has declared HIm (Made Him known). So all these times that YHVH became manifest (say, as a man) who was it? It was surely YHVH but alas not the Father,,,but wait...the one and only YHVH is the Father, and IS the Word/Son, AND IS the Spirit,,,,one God who has revealed Himself in three personae...or as the ancients would say, one Ousia in three Hypostasis....

It was either the "Angel of YHWH" or a different angel. It was NOT the Son, nor was it the Father who no one has ever seen. Hebrews 1 & 2 make it clear that the Son was NOT an angel. I choose to not read Yeshua into texts that do not reveal the subject's identity.​

 

[jocor]

Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God, the Savior of Israel.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his onlyson, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1.10

John 19:37 – “And again another scripture says, ‘They shall look on him whom they pierced.’”​

The word "me" in Zechariah 12:10 obviously does not harmonize with the pronouns "him" and "his" that follow. John 19:37 seems to give us the correct understanding of this verse as do other versions like the RSV, ASV, and many others. However, let’s assume the text should have read “me” instead of “him”. Was it really Yahweh who died on the tree via crucifixion?

It is impossible for Yahweh to die. Therefore, it could not have been Him who was pierced by being nailed to a tree. It is also impossible for anyone to look upon Yahweh without dying (Exodus 33:20) yet, many people gazed into Yeshua’s face as he hung on the tree. Also, the Apostle John wrote after Yeshua’s death that no man has seen God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12). Therefore, God (Yahweh) was not hanging on that tree. It was Yahweh’s only begotten Son, Yeshua, who died on the tree.

How, then, should we understand Zechariah 12:10 if “me” is the correct reading? Yahweh and Yeshua were so intimately bound to each other (as many earthly fathers are to their sons) that when something happens to one it’s as though it happened to the other. One can hear a father say, “The day my son died, I died.” Consider, also, Exodus 7:17 when understanding this verse.

"Thus says Yahweh, In this thou shalt know that I am Yahweh: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall loath to drink of the water of the river. And Yahweh spoke unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as Yahweh commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood."
​

(Be advised, all scripture must be referenced with a chapter and verse reference as well as the translation if it is a copyrighted translation. Obadiah)

Yahweh says He Himself will smite the waters with the rod in His own hand. Yet, it was Aaron that held the rod (Exodus 7:19-20). Are we to believe Aaron is Yahweh? No. Neither should we believe Yeshua is Yahweh based on Zechariah 12:10.

Peter reveals to us, this was in fact the Spirit of Christ in the OT prophets speaking and revealing of the sufferings He would undertake as a man.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Zechariah said these words:

Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Isaiah, said these words:

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:3,11

The Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of YHWH, are the Spirit of the LORD God.

JLB

The spirit that YHWH places upon people takes on different names as it refers to different functions. When it is associated with wisdom, it is called the “spirit of wisdom” (Ex. 28:3; Deut. 34:9; Eph. 1:17); with grace, it is called the “spirit of grace” (Zech.12:10; Heb. 10:29); with glory, it is called the “spirit of glory” (1 Pet. 4:14); with truth it is called the "spirit of truth" (John 14:17; 16:13). These are not different spirits. All the names refer to the Holy Spirit that YHWH gives.

When Peter mentions that “the spirit of Christ” was in the prophets as they “predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glory that would follow,” we can see that the spirit is called the “spirit of Christ” because it is associated with Christ and foretold of Christ, not because Christ was actually alive during the Old Testament.

 

[JLB]

The word "me" in Zechariah 12:10 obviously does not harmonize with the pronouns "him" and "his" that follow. John 19:37 seems to give us the correct understanding of this verse as do other versions like the RSV, ASV, and many others. However, let’s assume the text should have read “me” instead of “him”. Was it really Yahweh who died on the tree via crucifixion?

Peter reveals to us, this was in fact the Spirit of Christ in the OT prophets speaking and revealing of the sufferings He would undertake as a man.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Zechariah said these words:

Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Isaiah, said these words:

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:3,11


The Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of YHWH, are the Spirit of the LORD God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The word "me" in Zechariah 12:10 obviously does not harmonize with the pronouns "him" and "his" that follow.

The word Me, in Zechariah 12:10, harmonizes perfectly with what the New Testament teaches us about Jesus as our great God and Savior.

Jesus as our great God and Savior does not harmonize with Judaism, as those in that religion reject Jesus as Lord.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14

I guess you want us to discard all the scriptures that plainly teach us that Jesus Christ is the Lord God, YHWH, Savior of Israel, because you say that the word "Me" in Zechariah 12:10, doesn't harmonize with the other pronouns in that chapter?





JLB

 

[JLB]

The spirit that YHWH places upon people takes on different names as it refers to different functions. When it is associated with wisdom, it is called the “spirit of wisdom” (Ex. 28:3; Deut. 34:9; Eph. 1:17); with grace, it is called the “spirit of grace” (Zech.12:10; Heb. 10:29); with glory, it is called the “spirit of glory” (1 Pet. 4:14); with truth it is called the "spirit of truth" (John 14:17; 16:13). These are not different spirits. All the names refer to the Holy Spirit that YHWH gives.

When Peter mentions that “the spirit of Christ” was in the prophets as they “predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glory that would follow,” we can see that the spirit is called the “spirit of Christ” because it is associated with Christ and foretold of Christ, not because Christ was actually alive during the Old Testament.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


The Spirit of Christ was in the Old Testament prophets, speaking through them.

... the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He [the Spirit of Christ] testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ.

The same Spirit of Christ, that was in the Old Testament prophets, is in those who believe the Gospel.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9


Explain to me how you think the Spirit of Christ was not alive, since by Him all things that were made, were made by Him?


Now as I asked you before, tell me what Jesus Christ was before He became flesh, as it was Him who created all thing. and everything that was made, was made by Him?



JLB

 

[mutzrein]

Just as it says, Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father.

His Father is God the Father.

He is God, the Son, having been begotten of The Father.

What is it that you claim, that God would beget?

Man begets man.
Horse begets Horse.
God begets God.

King begets after its own kind.

The Son was begotten of God before the foundation of the world.


How would you interpret this verse.

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 20:28

God, being divine, begets divinity
Man, being human, begets humanity
A king, being royal, begets royalty

My view on Thomas' statement is this:

The obvious ‘Jesus = God’ interpretation put on this is that Thomas, when confronted with proof that Jesus was indeed alive, acknowledges or states or replies to Jesus that he (Jesus) is God. The proof that the premise is correct, many say, is that if Jesus was NOT God he would have corrected him.
There are ‘non-believers’ explanations of course that I have seen. Among them, one is that Thomas made a mistake, another that it was a statement of surprise and yet another that he was speaking of both Jesus and God. I don’t have a particular view on any of these. I am aware that the JW’s have another notion that Jesus was ‘a god’ but they also have their own bible that I don’t agree with.

But, it is important for me, when considering scripture, to try to understand the context of what is written, while trying to refrain from taking a single verse out of a passage, especially when other verses appear to contradict it.

In this case there are two that alert me to the possibility:

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Now the obvious question here is, if Jesus is God, why is it that he refers to His Father as God? Does God have a God?

And then there is:
John 20:30-31 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Consider this. If John had understood the answer by Thomas to testify to the deity of Christ, and noted the lack of response by Jesus, which is seen to confirm it, then you would think that John would have asked us to believe that "Jesus is God", instead of "Jesus is the Christ, the son of God".

And this is not to mention the many other scriptures written by John which clearly testify that Jesus is the son of God. I had a quick count and there is more than 10. Not one of them actually says that Jesus IS God. In fact nowhere in scripture is there any reference to the often-touted phrase “God the son”. And another thing, while we are in John, there was a statement made by Jesus – “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)

So, to my mind therefore, this verse does not clearly testify that Jesus is God. It testifies of what Thomas is purported to have said. That is, it records the words that were spoken. It does not show Thomas’s frame of mind, the way it was spoken, and those who use it to ‘prove’ their point seem to delight in this one verse when there are at least two others in the chapter (and many more in the book) that don’t really line up with it let alone the lack of evidence anywhere in scripture which plainly states that Jesus is God. Therefore I believe this verse cannot be used to ‘prove’ that Jesus is God.

And remember, as quoted above, Jesus said that eternal life is: “that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Surely if Jesus were God, the ‘and’ would not be necessary.

 

[jocor]

The word Me, in Zechariah 12:10, harmonizes perfectly with what the New Testament teaches us about Jesus as our great God and Savior.

Does it harmonize with John 19:37?

“And again another scripture says, ‘They shall look on him whom they pierced.’”​

Which text was John quoting from?

I know how you hate it when I question translations. Do you believe translations are without error?

If you insist on “Me” as being correct, then I would understand the verse in light of Matthew 25:40:

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.​

Why would it be any different between Father and Son? When Yeshua was pierced, In Yahweh’s mind it was as though they pierced Him.

Jesus as our great God and Savior does not harmonize with Judaism, as those in that religion reject Jesus as Lord.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14

Here is how the Revised Version,American Standard Version,NAS, Moffatt,RSV,NRSV,Douay,New American Bible, NEB, NASB, etc., render the verse:

13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;​

In whatever version you cited (you did not identify it), we await the “glorious appearing” of God, while in the ASV and other versions we await the “appearing of the glory of God” i.e., we are looking for the “glory” of God, which is stated clearly as being “our Saviour Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah).”

The version you cited puts “our” in front of “God” whereas the Greek has “tou” (the). Your version also fails to translate “our” in front of “Jesus Christ” (“and our Saviour Jesus Christ”).

I guess you want us to discard all the scriptures that plainly teach us that Jesus Christ is the Lord God, YHWH, Savior of Israel, because you say that the word "Me" in Zechariah 12:10, doesn't harmonize with the other pronouns in that chapter?

This is an emotional argument that brings my sanity into question. I would appreciate it if you would just stick to addressing the arguments I pose without making things personal. Can you do that JLB?

What I want is for you to seriously consider the possibility that Zech 12:10 is translated wrong as John 19:37 suggests. There are many versions and writings of church fathers that go with “him” rather than “Me”. If you can’t do that, then address my argument concerning Mat 25:40.

 

[jocor]

Explain to me how you think the Spirit of Christ was not alive, since by Him all things that were made, were made by Him?

Now as I asked you before, tell me what Jesus Christ was before He became flesh, as it was Him who created all thing. and everything that was made, was made by Him?

When you say, “since by Him all things that were made, were made by Him,” you are asking your question based on a preconceived premise. I believe all things were created “through him”, not “by him”. I see Scripture teaching everything being made by Yeshua’s Father (YHWH) as He spoke things into being. He did this with Yeshua in mind to fulfill His plan of salvation. In Yahweh’s plan, His Son would become a slain Lamb. This concept was in His plan before Yeshua was ever born (Rev 13:8). At the appointed time, Yahweh created everything necessary to bring His plan to fruition. He created an earth to live on, people to save, trees for his cross, metal for his nails, etc., so that His Son would have everything necessary to fulfill the plan. In that sense, all things were created “through” the Son being in the Father’s mind/plan.

So, to answer your latter question, Yeshua preexisted in the Father’s mind/plan before he became flesh. IMHO, any attempt to find the Son existing as a living being prior to becoming flesh forces us to read him into the text, ie; say he was YHWH, the God of Israel.

 

[JLB]

God, being divine, begets divinity
Man, being human, begets humanity
A king, being royal, begets royalty

My view on Thomas' statement is this:

The obvious ‘Jesus = God’ interpretation put on this is that Thomas, when confronted with proof that Jesus was indeed alive, acknowledges or states or replies to Jesus that he (Jesus) is God. The proof that the premise is correct, many say, is that if Jesus was NOT God he would have corrected him.
There are ‘non-believers’ explanations of course that I have seen. Among them, one is that Thomas made a mistake, another that it was a statement of surprise and yet another that he was speaking of both Jesus and God. I don’t have a particular view on any of these. I am aware that the JW’s have another notion that Jesus was ‘a god’ but they also have their own bible that I don’t agree with.

But, it is important for me, when considering scripture, to try to understand the context of what is written, while trying to refrain from taking a single verse out of a passage, especially when other verses appear to contradict it.

In this case there are two that alert me to the possibility:

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Now the obvious question here is, if Jesus is God, why is it that he refers to His Father as God? Does God have a God?

And then there is:
John 20:30-31 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Consider this. If John had understood the answer by Thomas to testify to the deity of Christ, and noted the lack of response by Jesus, which is seen to confirm it, then you would think that John would have asked us to believe that "Jesus is God", instead of "Jesus is the Christ, the son of God".

And this is not to mention the many other scriptures written by John which clearly testify that Jesus is the son of God. I had a quick count and there is more than 10. Not one of them actually says that Jesus IS God. In fact nowhere in scripture is there any reference to the often-touted phrase “God the son”. And another thing, while we are in John, there was a statement made by Jesus – “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)

So, to my mind therefore, this verse does not clearly testify that Jesus is God. It testifies of what Thomas is purported to have said. That is, it records the words that were spoken. It does not show Thomas’s frame of mind, the way it was spoken, and those who use it to ‘prove’ their point seem to delight in this one verse when there are at least two others in the chapter (and many more in the book) that don’t really line up with it let alone the lack of evidence anywhere in scripture which plainly states that Jesus is God. Therefore I believe this verse cannot be used to ‘prove’ that Jesus is God.

And remember, as quoted above, Jesus said that eternal life is: “that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Surely if Jesus were God, the ‘and’ would not be necessary.

I haven't found anyone who claimed Jesus is God the Father.

Rather, He is God, the only begotten of the Father, and is The Son of God.

It you would seek not to violate the context of scripture, the remember He became flesh, that is to say, He became a man, which says of that position, He was made a little lower than the Angels.

The Christ, or Mesiah is a Man, for It is by man that sin and death spread to all mankind, so by man, sin must be taken away from mankind.

What do you claim that Jesus was, before He became a man?

The bible states clearly He is the great God and Savior, which is a direct reference to YHWH.
Isaiah 43:3,12


JLB