Jesus is not YHVH

[JLB]

God, being divine, begets divinity

God begets God.

Man begets man.

Kind begets after it's own kind.


JLB

 

[JLB]

When you say, “since by Him all things that were made, were made by Him,” you are asking your question based on a preconceived premise. I believe all things were created “through him”, not “by him”.

Yes, all things were created through and by Him and for Him, which leaves nothing out, concerning Him as creator.

For by Him all things were created...

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

So the scriptures themselves directly refute your claim.

Read it - For by Him all things were created.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3


Jesus, in the beginning, expressed the will, creative thought, of the Father, as the Word, and His Word was brought into manifestation by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Godhead, Elohim are One, and they are God.



JLB

 

[jocor]

Man begets man.

Kind begets after it's own kind.


JLB

This is true of procreation in the flesh. It is not true concerning a miraculous begetting. A divine being can beget a man if He so chooses because He is NOT begetting by any carnal sperm, but by speaking it into existence.

 

[JLB]

So, to answer your latter question, Yeshua preexisted in the Father’s mind/plan before he became flesh. IMHO, any attempt to find the Son existing as a living being prior to becoming flesh forces us to read him into the text, ie; say he was YHWH, the God of Israel.

any attempt to find the Son existing as a living being prior to becoming flesh

“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:25



The scriptures directly refute your claim.

You are reading the scriptures with a preconceived idea in mind, which is to deny the divinity of Christ, as God's only Begotten Son.


Those who do not honor the Son just as they honor God the father, dishonor both.

that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:23


We honor the Father as God, and worship Him as God.

We also honor His Only Begotten Son as God, and worship Him as well.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is true of procreation in the flesh. It is not true concerning a miraculous begetting. A divine being can beget a man if He so chooses because He is NOT begetting by any carnal sperm, but by speaking it into existence.

Jesus was God's Son before He became flesh.

“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:25


And the scripture can not be broken.



JLB

 

[jocor]

Yes, all things were created through and by Him and for Him, which leaves nothing out, concerning Him as creator.

For by Him all things were created...

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

So the scriptures themselves directly refute your claim.

Read it - For by Him all things were created.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3


Jesus, in the beginning, expressed the will, creative thought, of the Father, as the Word, and His Word was brought into manifestation by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Godhead, Elohim are One, and they are God.



JLB

I already addressed this verse (I assume you are referring to Col 1:16) and showed that I believe the translation should be "For in him were all things created ..." If you disagree, then address my points in that post.

As for John 1, I choose to not read the Son into the text by making the logos a person rather than the Father's spoken words and thoughts.

 

[JLB]

This is true of procreation in the flesh. It is not true concerning a miraculous begetting. A divine being can beget a man if He so chooses because He is NOT begetting by any carnal sperm, but by speaking it into existence.

You err not knowing the scriptures as you try to explain away God's word.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


The Son of God was in the fire with the three Hebrew children and existed before He became flesh.

“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:25


Peter reveals to us, this was in fact the Spirit of Christ in the OT prophets speaking and revealing of the sufferings He would undertake as a man.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Zechariah said these words:

Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


The Spirit of Christ, speaking through Isaiah, said these words:

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:3,11


This is what the New Testament teaches.

Jesus is our great God and Savior.

...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


Plainly and clearly the scriptures says, Jesus is our great God, and Savior.

The Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of YHWH, are the Spirit of the LORD God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I already addressed this verse (I assume you are referring to Col 1:16) and showed that I believe the translation should be "For in him were all things created ..." If you disagree, then address my points in that post.

As for John 1, I choose to not read the Son into the text by making the logos a person rather than the Father's spoken words and thoughts.

You misquoted the verse, and left out the what the whole verse says... then you say you addressed it. 2

For by Him all things were created...

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

By Him all things were created. Plain and clear.

So the scriptures themselves directly refute your claim.


JLB

 

[jocor]

(Post removed, ToS 2.1: "This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act." Declaring that Jesus is not God is a hostile act. Obadiah)

 

[JohnDB]

Jesus is fully God and fully man.
Apprehend dont/can't comprehend.

 

[jocor]

You misquoted the verse, and left out the what the whole verse says... then you say you addressed it. 2

For by Him all things were created...

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

By Him all things were created. Plain and clear.

So the scriptures themselves directly refute your claim.


JLB

I misquoted nothing, nor did I leave out anything. In my post #2 I gave the ASV translation and :

I believe the ASV and YLT (among others) have it correct:

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Less theatrics, JLB, and more scholarly refutations please.

 

[JLB]

This scripture teaches us that the Spirit of Christ, was the very Spirit, speaking through the OT prophets, foretelling of His own sufferings to come, as the Messiah.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


The Spirit of Christ, who is the Spirit of the Lord, spoke these words through Isaiah.

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3

The way He would be our Savior is by becoming flesh, and and suffering and dying on the cross.

His Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Christ, did not die, but His body.

The New Testament confirms this about the Lord Jesus as our Savior.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


The New Testament scriptures reveal to us that Jesus Christ is the Lord our Savior, the same Lord and Savior that the OT proclaims.

He is YHWH, The Lord God our Savior.

The Spirit of Christ, being Omnipresent, dwells in all those who confess Him as Lord, YHWH, the great God and Savior.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I misquoted nothing, nor did I leave out anything. In my post #2 I gave the ASV translation and :

For by Him all things were created...

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

By Him all things were created. Plain and clear.


For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16 KJV

The ASV is no different.

In Him, as in and of Himself He created...

By Him were all things created... both through Him and for Him.

for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; Colossians 1:16 ASV


It doesn't change the meaning.

Jesus is the Word of God, the creator with the Father and the Spirit.

These are the Godhead, the Elohim.


JLB

 

[jocor]

This scripture teaches us that the Spirit of Christ, was the very Spirit, speaking through the OT prophets, foretelling of His own sufferings to come, as the Messiah.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


The Spirit of Christ, who is the Spirit of the Lord, spoke these words through Isaiah.

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3

The way He would be our Savior is by becoming flesh, and and suffering and dying on the cross.

His Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Christ, did not die, but His body.

The New Testament confirms this about the Lord Jesus as our Savior.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


The New Testament scriptures reveal to us that Jesus Christ is the Lord our Savior, the same Lord and Savior that the OT proclaims.

He is YHWH, The Lord God our Savior.

The Spirit of Christ, being Omnipresent, dwells in all those who confess Him as Lord, YHWH, the great God and Savior.



JLB

Repeating your same posts over and over again does not accomplish anything. Try addressing my points and perhaps we can have a more fruitful discussion.

 

[jocor]

for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; Colossians 1:16 ASV


It doesn't change the meaning.

Jesus is the Word of God, the creator with the Father and the Spirit.

These are the Godhead, the Elohim.

JLB

"By" means he did the creating. "In" refers to the position of creation. All creation is "in him", that is, there would be no reason to create anything if there was no Yeshua in YHWH's plan of salvation.

 

[JLB]

"By" means he did the creating. "In" refers to the position of creation.

By Him, refers to Him as creating, which the creating was done from within Him as the Word.

He is the Word, the Word created all things, the Word is God.

This is conducive to the rest of the New Testament writers.

the Word was God, without Him nothing was made that was made.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14

God became flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, 1 Timothy 3:16


Foreseeing, and declaring the end from the beginning, the Spirit of Christ spoke these words through Zechariah:


As the Lord God and Creator -

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1


As the returning Lord triumphant Lord of Host's, as also revealed from Revelation 19

In that day,” says the Lord, “I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God.’ 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place—Jerusalem.

7 “The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:4-9


As the Messiah who was pierced -

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
Zechariah 12:10-14


All of Israel will see the Lord Jesus as He returns, and they will mourn because they rejected Him as both Lord and Messiah, in favor of Judaism.


These words were spoken by the Spirit of Christ, through the prophet Zechariah, proclaiming Himself as Creator of the heavens, as well as Messiah Who was pierced.



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word (the Son), and the Word (the Son) was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (the Son). He (the Son) was with God (the Father) in the beginning.

John 1:14 The Word (the Son) became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only (the Son), who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

We all know these scriptures are saying Jesus was with the Father in the beginning, so through creation he was there.

Jesus doesn't ever have to blaspheme and say he is the Almighty Father, cause he is not. He can honestly say the Father is in him because of the Holy Spirit and his DNA.

John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, and who is doing his word.

There is One God, but hierarchy in God. God the Father is Almighty, then the Son under him and then believers are under Jesus the Christ.

John 14:20 On that day (the day you are born again of the Holy Spirit) you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For he (the Father) "has put everything under his (Jesus) feet." Now when it says that "everything" has put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God (the Father) himself, who put everything under Christ. When he (the Father) has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (the Father) who put everything under him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

 

[mutzrein]

I haven't found anyone who claimed Jesus is God the Father.

Rather, He is God, the only begotten of the Father, and is The Son of God.

It you would seek not to violate the context of scripture, the remember He became flesh, that is to say, He became a man, which says of that position, He was made a little lower than the Angels.

The Christ, or Mesiah is a Man, for It is by man that sin and death spread to all mankind, so by man, sin must be taken away from mankind.

What do you claim that Jesus was, before He became a man?

The bible states clearly He is the great God and Savior, which is a direct reference to YHWH.
Isaiah 43:3,12
JLB

Who do I claim that Jesus was before he became man?

The Word OF God.

 

[jocor]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, 1 Timothy 3:16

The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not “God” but rather “he who.” Here are a few versions that were translated differently based on those early mss:

"He appeared in a body" (NIV)

"He who was manifested in the flesh" (ASV)

"He who was revealed in the flesh" (NASB)

"He was manifested in the flesh" (RSV)

"Which was manifested in the flesh" (Douey-Rheims)

"Who was manifested in the flesh" (NAB)"

Foreseeing, and declaring the end from the beginning, the Spirit of Christ spoke these words through Zechariah:


As the Lord God and Creator -

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

2Ki 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.​

Does this mean Elijah himself in spirit form was working in Elisha?

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

The text reads, "Thus says YHWH". "YHWH" is the Father of Yeshua.

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH (the Father), and against His anointed (the Son), saying,​

 

[Sinthesis]

Exo 4:5 - That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.

Exo 6:3 - And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, bythe name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
​

If we can accept that Jehovah is the God of the patriarchs even though they did not know Him by that name, then it is not a stretch to accept Jesus as a further clarification of Jehovah. Is it possible to accept Yahweh or El Shaddai as other names for The Word?

Isa 13:6 ¶ Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

1Co 1:8 - Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Psa 2:2 - The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed,saying,

Psa 2:7 - I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thouart my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

1Sa 2:35 - And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

Exo 4:22 - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
​

Because of the use of type/antitype, we can see that the term anointed does not always refer literally to Jesus, and the term God's son is not necessarily reserved for Jesus, though both point us to Him.