Jesus is Presently King of the World

[Drew]

God's Kingdom is not of this world because it is of God. We are sinful and all have fallen short so how can God's Kingdom be a part of that?

I will go back and see what questions I have overlooked.

What you say here is a common-sense objection that we can all understand.

But, and this is the key issue for those of us who see the Scriptures, and not "common-sense" as the authority, there are clear Biblical "promises" that Jesus' reign will exist alongside the problems of sin and death.

In 1 Corinthians 15, we Paul tells us that Jesus will reign until all enemies are defeated. The clear implication: while arguments that the kingdom is not yet here because we are all still struggling with sin have a certain common sense appeal, they are decidedly not Biblical arguments.

 

[seekandlisten]

God's Kingdom is not of this world because it is of God. We are sinful and all have fallen short so how can God's Kingdom be a part of that?

I will go back and see what questions I have overlooked.

What you say here is a common-sense objection that we can all understand.

But, and this is the key issue for those of us who see the Scriptures, and not "common-sense" as the authority, there are clear Biblical "promises" that Jesus' reign will exist alongside the problems of sin and death.

In 1 Corinthians 15, we Paul tells us that Jesus will reign until all enemies are defeated. The clear implication: while arguments that the kingdom is not yet here because we are all still struggling with sin have a certain common sense appeal, they are decidedly not Biblical arguments.

Just to clarify I am not against the idea of Jesus currently reigning on earth based on the fact that there is still sin. This is why I wonder if we will physically see Jesus taking his reign on earth and binding Satan? If you look at my questions I put forth earlier I have started to come to the realization that Jesus could indeed be reigning right now and Satan has been bound. The 1000 year reign.

 

[Adullam]

"In your midst" means that Jesus was presently among them at that time.

No. You are re-working the text and, in the process, deforming its meaning. Jesus' is answering a question about the kingdom of God:

Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Your claim that Jeus is talking about His own presence among at the time not only denies the focus on the specific matter of the Kingdom of God, it is also unworkable for another reason: Jesus stated that the Kingdom of God is not something to "be observed" or "seen". Well, clearly Jesus HImself can be seen, so it is not really possible that Jesus is talking about Himself as the thing that is in their midst.

He is talking about the Kingdom of God.

Reader, please do not get confused. Although Jesus is the initiator of the Kingdom of God, it would be a category mistake to say that "Jesus equals the Kingdom of God"

Your error is apparent here. The kingdom is Christ. Only what is in Him and abides shows the kingdom of God. What there is without Jesus is the confusion you are settling for. A Christian is one who has Christ dwelling in him. The church is the gathering of Christ-dwellers so that He is made manifest in their midst. This is biblical Christianity.

A certain king named Louis said "L'état c'est moi" How much more so is Jesus Christ the very kingdom of God. Without Jesus we are nothing and can do nothing. Only that which is animated by Him is eternal.

 

[Drew]

Your error is apparent here. The kingdom is Christ.

The kingdom of God is not "identical" to Jesus - it is the kingdom that Jesus initiates and over which He rules.

I politely suggest that you are trying to salvage your assertion that when Jesus says the Kingdom is among you, He is not stating the kingdom had already been initiated, but rather that He is among them. Well that obviously does not work for reasons we have already seen - Jesus describes the kingdom as not being something one can, and Jesus certainly was seen by those "in whose midst" He was standing at the time.

Jesus is not the "same thing" as the kingdom, any more then Barack Obama is the United States. Now nobody, least of all me, is denying that Christ dwells in the life of the believer. But you are effectively arguing that "since Christ lives in us, He cannot also be king of the world". That simply does not follow logically.

 

[Adullam]

Your error is apparent here. The kingdom is Christ.

The kingdom of God is not "identical" to Jesus - it is the kingdom that Jesus initiates and over which He rules.

I politely suggest that you are trying to salvage your assertion that when Jesus says the Kingdom is among you, He is not stating the kingdom had already been initiated, but rather that He is among them. Well that obviously does not work for reasons we have already seen - Jesus describes the kingdom as not being something one can, and Jesus certainly was seen by those "in whose midst" He was standing at the time.

Jesus is not the "same thing" as the kingdom, any more then Barack Obama is the United States. Now nobody, least of all me, is denying that Christ dwells in the life of the believer. But you are effectively arguing that "since Christ lives in us, He cannot also be king of the world". That simply does not follow logically.

Actually, Jesus is limiting Himself to His presence within surrendered vessels (disciples). Only to the extent that Christians are fully surrendered to Christ is Jesus manifest in this world. The kingdom of God is not according to words...but power. We, then allow Jesus to rule here or not. It is by faith at this time. Although He is the rightful ruler of this planet, we as Christians are not submitted to Christ so as to bring His rule into this present time. We lack faith and submission. So to claim Christ as king without the power of Christ in our lives is basically hypocrisy.

 

[MarkT]

God was the ruler of the world for a long time, but, there was still a lot of evil, lol. ;)

I agree with you. The "God cannot be King since there is evil" argument sounds nice, but it is not Biblical. In 1 Cor 15, Paul says "Jesus must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet". Clearly. this implies that Jesus' reign does not begin with all problems solved in an instant.

But you watch - people will simply ignore this text, and other ones, and insist that we simply cannot have Jesus as King if there are still problems.

Is your faith in God or in your interpretation of a line taken out of context? According to Paul, 'Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.' 1 Cor. 15:24,25

Does he say Christ will destroy every rule? What does that mean if Christ is the ruler of this world? Does he say, 'and every authority"? What does that mean? Will Christ destroy his own authority? No. He means Christ will destroy Satan's rule and authority. Satan is the ruler of this world.

When Christ returns he will rule for a thousand years with a rod of iron. He will destroy every rule and authority and power (the last power is death). Christ will destroy his enemies. According to Paul, 'then comes the end'. But the end comes after Christ has subjected everything to himself. And this occurs after the resurrection of the dead because Paul says, 'shall all be made alive' ('all' refering to those who have fallen asleep), 'each in his own order', "Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.' 1 Cor. 15:20-24

Then comes the end. When? When he delivers the kingdom to God. After he destroys Satan's rule.

The day of judgment - the 1000 year reign - is the day of wrath.

It won't be a pleasant time for mankind. And everything he prophesied will come to pass at the appointed times.

So if Jesus began his reign at the cross, then the resurrection must have already taken place. Nope. Paul says, 'at his coming'. He is talking about the 1000 year reign which begins with his coming and the resurrection of the dead.

 

[researcher]

Satan is the ruler of this world.

Joh 12:31 now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth;

Joh 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world hath been judged.

Luk 10:22 `All things were delivered up to me by my Father,

Mat 28:18 And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;

Mat 16:28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'

 

[MarkT]

I will argue that through a cryptic statement made to Caiaphus at His trial, Jesus declares that YHWH has become king, thereby fulfilling the Jewish expectation about this. In doing so, though, Jesus goes beyond this and effectively declares that He (Jesus) shares that kingship. Note what Jesus says in response to Caiaphus:

But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

The reference to sitting at the right hand of power comes from Psalm 110:

The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand

The “coming with the clouds of heaven†statement is an allusion to this material from Daniel 7:

I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool
Histhrone was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10"A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
11"Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the (V)burning fire.
12"As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
13"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

From both these references, it is clear that Jesus intends Caiaphus to see Him (Jesus) in the role of the Son of Man figure who gets presented to the Ancient of Days (YHWH) and takes the other of the two thrones (note the multiplicity of thrones in the Daniel material). And note: Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see this occur. This closes the door on the option that this is an enthronement that has yet to occur (from our perspective in the 21st century).

Not so fast. At the resurrection, everyone, including Ca'iaphas, will see the Son of man. The thrones that are set up are for the twelve who will rule with Christ.

 

[MarkT]

Satan is the ruler of this world.

Joh 12:31 now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth;

That's a declaration. 'Now shall the ruler of this world be cast out'. He didn't say when, but he said he shall be cast out.

Joh 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world hath been judged.

See. Jesus calls him the ruler of this world. So if Jesus calls him the ruler of this world, why do you not believe it?

Luk 10:22 `All things were delivered up to me by my Father,

Mat 28:18 And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;

That's right. The disciples were amazed that he could even command the sea.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'

God is God of the living, not the dead. Those who he makes alive, he keeps until the resurrection when they shall see the Son of man coming in his reign.

 

[Drew]

Not so fast. At the resurrection, everyone, including Ca'iaphas, will see the Son of man. The thrones that are set up are for the twelve who will rule with Christ.

No. Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus vindicated. This is a reference to the resurrection, not a 2nd coming.

Let's remember, the "coming on the clouds" image drawn from Daniel 7 is cleary an ascent in exultation after vindication - check the text - not a descent, as it would have to be if Jesus is talking about His second coming.

And taking the Psalm 110 reference together with the Daniel 7 reference, which is itself derivative from the throne chariot vision of Ezekiel 1, it is clear that these thrones are for God the Father and Jesus the Son.

 

[Drew]

Mat 28:18

And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;

That's right. The disciples were amazed that he could even command the sea.

Can you explain how you see Satan as king of this world when, by His very words here, Jesus claims to be the one with all authority on earth?

Mat 16:28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'

God is God of the living, not the dead. Those who he makes alive, he keeps until the resurrection when they shall see the Son of man coming in his reign.

Jesus means what He says - some of the people who hear him will not die until Jesus becomes King - exactly as researcher and I (and others) have been asserting. Look at what you (and others) do in order to "fit" this text in with the view that Jesus' reign has yet to begin. You have a huge challenge - Jesus tells actual 1st century people that some of them will not experience death before the reign begins. Well, if the reign has not begun, and if Jesus is to be taken at his word, some of those people are still wandering around now at the ripe old age of 2000 plus.

It appears that you try to get around this by suggesting that they never really "died", appealing to the idea that the redeemed "never really die".

Do you really think that this is a reasonable argument? This is the same of kind of elaborate dance that people use to argue that when Jesus points to the temple and says "this temple will be destroyed within one generation", and re-work it to "some other temple will be destroyed at some distant time in the future".

 

[Drew]

Actually, Jesus is limiting Himself to His presence within surrendered vessels (disciples).

That is not what the text says - Jesus is talking to the Pharisees. It is Pharisees who ask the question:

Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

If you are going to argue that Jesus is asserting the existence of His presence "within" people, then, to be true to the actual text, He is saying that Jesus is present within the lives of the Pharisees.

Not likely.

So to claim Christ as king without the power of Christ in our lives is basically hypocrisy.

Who claimed such a thing? Not me.

Again, it is absolutely vital to understand that Jesus can indeed be reigning "within" believers and also over the world as a whole - the one does not preclude the other.

 

[researcher]

Satan is the ruler of this world.

[quote:1fhytl8v]Joh 12:31 now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth;

That's a declaration. 'Now shall the ruler of this world be cast out'. He didn't say when, but he said he shall be cast out.

Joh 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world hath been judged.

See. Jesus calls him the ruler of this world. So if Jesus calls him the ruler of this world, why do you not believe it?

Luk 10:22 `All things were delivered up to me by my Father,

Mat 28:18 And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;

That's right. The disciples were amazed that he could even command the sea.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'

God is God of the living, not the dead. Those who he makes alive, he keeps until the resurrection when they shall see the Son of man coming in his reign.[/quote:1fhytl8v]

When he "comes in his reign" will that be the third coming? 'Cause he came back in 70 AD...

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42618&p=513270#p513270

 

[Vic C.]

A physical coming can't be validated. There is no evidence for it. I'd be willing to entertain the idea that it was a coming of sorts from a spiritual POV... or a "type" (shadow) of His physical coming.

 

[researcher]

A physical coming can't be validated. There is no evidence for it. I'd be willing to entertain the idea that it was a coming of sorts from a spiritual POV... or a "type" (shadow) of His physical coming.

Still, if he came when Jerusalem was destroyed, that would be a second coming.

Luk 20:15 And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luk 20:16 He will come and destroy these husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

He will come

and destroy these husbandmen,

Did he come? ;)

 

[researcher]

A physical coming can't be validated. There is no evidence for it. I'd be willing to entertain the idea that it was a coming of sorts from a spiritual POV... or a "type" (shadow) of His physical coming.

Still, if he came when Jerusalem was destroyed, that would be a second coming.

Luk 20:15 And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luk 20:16 He will come and destroy these husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

He will come

and destroy these husbandmen,

Did he come? ;)

And if he did come back, it makes this verse quite true.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

:P

 

[MarkT]

Not so fast. At the resurrection, everyone, including Ca'iaphas, will see the Son of man. The thrones that are set up are for the twelve who will rule with Christ.

No. Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus vindicated. This is a reference to the resurrection, not a 2nd coming.

Do you believe he is coming soon? 'Surely I am coming soon' Rev.22:20

But what Jesus said to Ca'iaphas was prophesy. You have to remember what death is. The dead apart from Christ go down to Sheol where they are kept until the day of judgment. I know you don't believe in the spiritual things. I'm not even sure you believe in the soul. But I'm thinking Ca'iaphas died. So his soul is in prison. Can the dead see and hear? I'm guessing they can because they are kept in torment probably knowing what their end will be. Jesus said, 'hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.' Is Jesus refering to the hereafter ie. Sheol? He doesn't say when he will see but we know Jesus has not come yet. Again the words of the Lord are not just for Ca'iaphas or the scribes or just for the ones who heard him that day. When Jesus said 'you will see' the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven, it's a prophecy. We who can hear him understand he is talking about his coming at the close of the age.

The coming of the Lord Jesus will be 'as the lightening comes from the east and shines as far as the west'. So we expect a great light at his coming. And then the Word of God will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty and the false prophet and the beast will be thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan will be bound and thrown into the Pit for the thousand years reign.

Let's remember, the "coming on the clouds" image drawn from Daniel 7 is cleary an ascent in exultation after vindication - check the text - not a descent, as it would have to be if Jesus is talking about His second coming.

I don't think so. Do you not understand the meaning of the word 'coming'. He is coming. If He sits at the right hand of God and He is coming, then he is coming from heaven.

And taking the Psalm 110 reference together with the Daniel 7 reference, which is itself derivative from the throne chariot vision of Ezekiel 1, it is clear that these thrones are for God the Father and Jesus the Son.

Daniel agrees with Rev. and with everything Jesus said about his coming - 'When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.' Mt. 25:31

 

[MarkT]

And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;

That's right. The disciples were amazed that he could even command the sea.

Can you explain how you see Satan as king of this world when, by His very words here, Jesus claims to be the one with all authority on earth?

Didn't the ruler of this world have Jesus put to death? You're not understanding the enemy at all. The ruler of this world is the one who has the power of death over us. Since we are flesh and blood and Jesus partook of our nature, he was put to death. But Jesus said Satan had no power over the Son of God. Satan had Jesus put to death in the body. But even so he did not see corruption and he was raised incorruptible.

And it's hardly necessary to refer to the world as 'this' world if there is no other world; if the kingdom of God does not exist. Yes it does exist.

As to the question of authority, Jesus cast out Satan, he forgave sin, he healed the sick and he made the blind see again. All these things and more he did so that we would believe in him.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'

God is God of the living, not the dead. Those who he makes alive, he keeps until the resurrection when they shall see the Son of man coming in his reign.

Jesus means what He says - some of the people who hear him will not die until Jesus becomes King - exactly as researcher and I (and others) have been asserting. Look at what you (and others) do in order to "fit" this text in with the view that Jesus' reign has yet to begin. You have a huge challenge - Jesus tells actual 1st century people that some of them will not experience death before the reign begins. Well, if the reign has not begun, and if Jesus is to be taken at his word, some of those people are still wandering around now at the ripe old age of 2000 plus.

It appears that you try to get around this by suggesting that they never really "died", appealing to the idea that the redeemed "never really die".

They don't die. This is the word of God - 'Truly, truly I say, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life.' John 5:24 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.' John 6:47

From our perspective (human) the dead can't see and hear. I would say that's the wisdom of the world or what the world knows. But Jesus preached to the spirits in Sheol. So we must consider the spiritual element when we read 'taste death' Mt. 16:28 There's the going down to Sheol aspect of death - the punishment. We learn that believers do not go down to Sheol. Indeed they are in Christ who has died once for all, so that they have passed from death to life.

Do you really think that this is a reasonable argument? This is the same of kind of elaborate dance that people use to argue that when Jesus points to the temple and says "this temple will be destroyed within one generation", and re-work it to "some other temple will be destroyed at some distant time in the future".

Prophecy is difficult. The Spirit leads us to the truth. But being difficult doesn`t allow us to accept any interpretation. Jesus said there will be tribulation unlike anything since the beginning. It will be bigger than the flood. Hence the references to Noah and the flood. The destruction of the temple was only the beginning of the things Jesus prophesied; hardly even noted in historical events. Jesus has to come. That`s why we pray, `Thy kingdom come. I`m assuming you pray.

 

[glorydaz]

I hope no one minds if I bump this thread.

I have a couple of points to add considering Jesus' rule and reign now.

Jesus told us how he would bind satan so the Gospel could go out.

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Do we see the world at peace? No, because the peace He gives is not as the world gives.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

We are seated with Christ in the heavenlies...now.
Why? So that the powers of the church might be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places.

Ephesians 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 3:10 - To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Jesus came as King, riding upon an ass, as predicted.

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

[quote:p6ja8at5]Matthew 21:5 - Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

John 12:15 - Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

[/quote:p6ja8at5]

There is no reason to wait for our Lord to rule and reign...He is reigning now.

 

[veteran]

Can't believe this debate has gone so far.

What about all the OT Scripture about Christ's Salvation? Afterall, the OT prophets is where Christ and His Apostles were pulling from, the only Scripture written at that time; the New Testament not having been compiled yet until after Christ's death.

What about the events of Ezekiel 40 forward?

What about the two sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37?

What about the gathering of the 12 tribes of Israel back to the land of inheritance under Christ? It wasn't even til 1948 that part of Israel (Jews only) started gathering back to the holy land.

What about the resurrection Apostle Paul covered in 1 Thess.4 and in 1 Cor.15 on the "last trump"?

What about the "new heavens and a new earth" event that's associated with Christ's reign, as covered in Isaiah and by Apostle Peter?

What about Rev.20 and the "first resurrection" who reign with Christ at the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" on earth?

What about Christ's literal return per Zechariah 14 and Acts 1?

What about Zech.9:10 which is about Christ's second coming?

What about the earth changes that are to occur with Christ's return? (Isaiah 11; Isaiah 25; Isaiah 27; Isaiah 43; Ezekiel 47).
.