jesus of nazareth - the 'law' must be written on our hearts?

[Former Christian]

John 8:32

“ Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine
It has changed in regard to what is still literally required to be done by the people of God (meaning those who believe in Christ).
At this point I would ask, what has changed......â€


You ask only concerning what has changed in the moral part of the Law. What of the dietary (Lev 11) and social (such as dealing with the poor and slavery) parts of the Law? Has something changed in their regard?

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Jasoncran

“christ also said go and sell all and he also said we ought to do as the pharisees bid.
so that means when the jews say fast we should fast and also when the temple is built should we then also go to there for the yearly sacrifice?â€


Jesus said to sell all to a specific individual. He didn’t intend for us to develop a religion around it.

In the first century, the Pharisees were the bona fide leaders of the Jews. The Aaronic priesthood. It is still in effect according to Modern Judaism. But it has nothing to do with those who are in Christ because the Tabernacle Ritual has been fulfilled by Jesus. The caretakers of the dead ritual are no longer needed. It has been replaced by an eternal experience that’s supposed to be common and shared among all who are in Christ in spite of doctrinal differences. Christianity has a different view.

If the temple is rebuilt, it will only pertain to those who are in modern Judaism, mainly the leaders of the secular state referred to as Israel. It will be an imitation of what was given by God. An imitation has no worth except to those who desire it to be so. Many Christians today believe that the secular state called Israel is the continuation of the OT Israel. They will no doubt be deceived by their interpretations when and if the Temple is built. But as all know, first the Islamic Mosque must first be removed for that to happen. Which will result in a war of global proportions, of which few would survive. The secular state of Israel itself would no doubt be destroyed in the process. Those Muslims who now take a dim view of the Islamic extremists would swiftly change their minds. You as a Jew, albeit a Jewish Christian, would be on their hit list. Prepare yourself.

It is my opinion, since I don’t know for sure, that the reason that the Islamic Mosque is in place in the place where it is, is to show that there is not supposed to be the Tabernacle ritual any more. It’s a sign to Modern Judaism that they can’t accept. Even if the secular state of Israel disappears, that will in no way prevent Jesus Christ from returning in the same way he went. With two millennia worth of witnesses.

FC

 

[Elijah674]

It has changed in regard to what is still literally required to be done by the people of God (meaning those who believe in Christ).



Yes, fulfilled, not abolished. And fulfilled so that no further literal action is legally required anymore in regard to those fulfilled parts of that law for purposes of remaining in covenant with God.




The fulfilled parts of the law are written on our hearts spiritually, not literally in that they are binding commands that the people of God do not have to continue to fulfill literally. We 'keep' (satisfy, meet, fulfill, etc.) certain worship requirements of the law when we believe in Christ. And since those certain requirements remain satisfied, there is no more legal obligation to the literal. Faith in Christ has fulfilled, and continues to fulfill, the outstanding debt of the law for those things such that no literal Mosaic debt of sacrifice and worship remains to be paid.

So in bottom/line, the Condition of Eternal Life to Adam + Eve to not eat of the forbidden fruite was just a temporiary [LAW]? And when FAITH IN CHRIST came (?) there was no condemnation of God's law ever again.

That sure is documented in our daily News & is factually sound like the today's Matt. 7 Broadway + Rev. 17:1-5 ones ones! But these ones are ALL LOST!Whatever??

--Elijah

 

[John 8:32]

Since Christ inspired these two verses to be recorded...

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

I can't wait to see what changes occur in how we are to live our lives tomorrow, then next week, then next month, then next year...

 

[Drew]

I would like to see the words the law is done away or something to that effect from the mouth of the one who gave the law on Mt. Sinai. One can argue that it was "nailed to the cross" or that Jesus did it for us, but Christ, Himself said to keep His commandments...

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

You are making a huge assumption that I am confident you will not be able to justify - that "Jesus's commandments" = "The Law of Moses".

Jesus, like Paul declared that the Law of Moses has come to an end.

In several of the gospels, Jesus tells His fellow Jews that no food makes them unlcean.

Excuse me? This is a direct challenge to the kosher food laws that are part of the Law of Moses.

Not to mention that Jesus declares that people come to Him for "healing and forgiveness". Do you not see that this ignores the prescriptions of the Law of Moses which clearly says one needs to go to the Temple for such things?

 

[jasoncran]

Jasoncran

“christ also said go and sell all and he also said we ought to do as the pharisees bid.
so that means when the jews say fast we should fast and also when the temple is built should we then also go to there for the yearly sacrifice?â€


Jesus said to sell all to a specific individual. He didn’t intend for us to develop a religion around it.

In the first century, the Pharisees were the bona fide leaders of the Jews. The Aaronic priesthood. It is still in effect according to Modern Judaism. But it has nothing to do with those who are in Christ because the Tabernacle Ritual has been fulfilled by Jesus. The caretakers of the dead ritual are no longer needed. It has been replaced by an eternal experience that’s supposed to be common and shared among all who are in Christ in spite of doctrinal differences. Christianity has a different view.

If the temple is rebuilt, it will only pertain to those who are in modern Judaism, mainly the leaders of the secular state referred to as Israel. It will be an imitation of what was given by God. An imitation has no worth except to those who desire it to be so. Many Christians today believe that the secular state called Israel is the continuation of the OT Israel. They will no doubt be deceived by their interpretations when and if the Temple is built. But as all know, first the Islamic Mosque must first be removed for that to happen. Which will result in a war of global proportions, of which few would survive. The secular state of Israel itself would no doubt be destroyed in the process. Those Muslims who now take a dim view of the Islamic extremists would swiftly change their minds. You as a Jew, albeit a Jewish Christian, would be on their hit list. Prepare yourself.

It is my opinion, since I don’t know for sure, that the reason that the Islamic Mosque is in place in the place where it is, is to show that there is not supposed to be the Tabernacle ritual any more. It’s a sign to Modern Judaism that they can’t accept. Even if the secular state of Israel disappears, that will in no way prevent Jesus Christ from returning in the same way he went. With two millennia worth of witnesses.

FC

i have been to the islamic republic of afghanistan. i know what they think of me in palenstine and other parts of the me.

i understand that but jesus also commanded men that were jews when he healed them of leprosy to show themselves to the priest and you err modern judiasm doesnt have the aaronic priesthood.

any jew who is a male and wishes to be a rabbi can be one! the only levites that may be around are those with kohen. cohn etc.

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_c/bl_rabbi.htm

of course this is from a consertive jew and that may not be common amongst them as the orthodox arent going to in now wise ordain a women and i dont think consertives are known for that.

and it depends on what sect you talk to. but that is something i may indulge myself in..hmm they do believe that when the messiah comes the third temple shall not be destroyed(per the sages) and that the gentiles will be included in the temple.

as far as eschatology the jewish temple has little revalance to me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I would like to see the words the law is done away or something to that effect from the mouth of the one who gave the law on Mt. Sinai.

Right in the passage where Jesus is explaining how he came to fulfill the law, not abolish it, he explains what must happen between when he was saying this and when heaven and earth disappear before anything can disappear from the law:

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18 NIV1984)

The two conditions for anything passing from the law are 'the passing of heaven and earth' and 'until everything is accomplished'. We all know and agree that more than just 'the least stroke of a pen' has 'disappeared' from the law (the law of animal sacrifice for sin), so one of the two things that must happen for that to be possible must have happened. Obviously, heaven and earth didn't disappear. What happened was the 'everything is accomplished' part.

We know it was Jesus' finished work on the Christ that made it possible for the law of sacrifice to 'disappear' from the law. He 'fulfilled' it with his own death on the cross such that the literal requirement for animal sacrifice for sin doesn't have to be obeyed anymore. His work on the cross is the 'everything is accomplished'...unless you can think of something else that allowed the law of sacrifice for sin to disappear from the law.

One can argue that it was "nailed to the cross" or that Jesus did it for us, but Christ, Himself said to keep His commandments...

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

The New Covenant had not even been unveiled yet at the time he said this that 'keep my commandments' could somehow not include keeping all of the Law of Moses for the audience present at the time. It wasn't until after his death and resurrection that the laws regarding the first covenant of temple, priest, and sacrifice were made obsolete by the work of Christ on the cross. It is interesting to note that in the John 15 passage you quote, Jesus specifically does tell us what he means by 'keeping his commandments':

12 "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." (John 15:12 NIV1984)

17 This is my command: Love each other. (John 15:17 NIV1984)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John 8:32

“ Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine
It has changed in regard to what is still literally required to be done by the people of God (meaning those who believe in Christ).
At this point I would ask, what has changed......”


You ask only concerning what has changed in the moral part of the Law. What of the dietary (Lev 11) and social (such as dealing with the poor and slavery) parts of the Law? Has something changed in their regard?

FC

Actually that was John8:32 asking "what has changed", not me. But anyway, the social laws are fulfilled by 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

The dietary laws are part of the literal worship, separation, and cleanliness laws that were made obsolete by the work of Christ. What those literal requirements sought to do (bring us near to God) is now accomplished through faith in Christ. Since we are brought near to God through the New and better Covenant of Christ, the old way of doing that--the old covenant--is no longer needed to do that. It has been laid aside in favor of a better and more effective way to approach God. Christ didn't abolish it. He just made it no longer necessary, and in the eyes of God actually fulfills all it's requirements for drawing near to God. Faith in Christ is the worship, the separation, and the cleanliness God demands in order to fellowship and be in Covenant with him. The old covenant of worship, separation, and cleanliness is no longer required to do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So in bottom/line, the Condition of Eternal Life to Adam + Eve to not eat of the forbidden fruite was just a temporiary [LAW]? And when FAITH IN CHRIST came (?) there was no condemnation of God's law ever again.

Because of Christ it is the worship, cleanliness, and separation laws that can not condemn a man anymore. But we are still condemned as sinners by the law of 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since Christ inspired these two verses to be recorded...

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

I can't wait to see what changes occur in how we are to live our lives tomorrow, then next week, then next month, then next year...

The NT itself speaks of a change in law:

"...when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." (Hebrews 7:12 NIV1984)

So the law has indeed changed. As I just demonstrated, even the Bible itself plainly says that. What has not changed with God is the unchanging nature of his purpose and the oath he swore to fulfill that purpose. That is how God does not change, and which gives us the sure foundation upon which our faith is based:

"17...God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged." (Hebrews 6:17-18 NIV1984)

 

[Elijah674]

The NT itself speaks of a change in law:

"...when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." (Hebrews 7:12 NIV1984)

So the law has indeed changed. As I just demonstrated, even the Bible itself plainly says that. What has not changed with God is the unchanging nature of his purpose and the oath he swore to fulfill that purpose. That is how God does not change, and which gives us the sure foundation upon which our faith is based:

"17...God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged." (Hebrews 6:17-18 NIV1984)

Just two ways to go. 1 John 2:4 and Rev. 12:17

[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

And the ones who will be saved??
Rev. 12 17 IDENTIFIES them even, keeping the Commandments of God! But that is ones free choice. Some even teach that God has these ones programed LOST. And sometimes it sure looks that way!

Rev. 12
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, [[which keep the commandments of God]], and [[have the testimony of Jesus Christ]].

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just two ways to go. 1 John 2:4 and Rev. 12:17

[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

And the ones who will be saved??
Rev. 12 17 IDENTIFIES them even, keeping the Commandments of God! But that is ones free choice. Some even teach that God has these ones programed LOST. And sometimes it sure looks that way!

Rev. 12
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, [[which keep the commandments of God]], and [[have the testimony of Jesus Christ]].

--Elijah

Why do you think keeping the commandments of God means we have to also keep the old covenant rules for temple, sacrifice, and priest? Hebrews explains how Christ is a new and better Covenant through which we approach God, and which has made the old one obsolete and no longer needed.

Is it good to lift a couple of scriptures out of the Bible without considering how they fit into the whole counsel of scripture?

 

[John 8:32]

Why do you think keeping the commandments of God means we have to also keep the old covenant rules for temple, sacrifice, and priest? Hebrews explains how Christ is a new and better Covenant through which we approach God, and which has made the old one obsolete and no longer needed.

Is it good to lift a couple of scriptures out of the Bible without considering how they fit into the whole counsel of scripture?

I am not saying to keep the laws concerning the priesthood as oulined in the Ex. That Levitical Priesthood has been superseded by Melchizidec Prieshood. The laws were not done away, they were changed according to how we practice them.

Is it good to disregard plain scriptures to make a point? Is it good to disregard what Christ plainly says because of Paul's writings...





2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it good to disregard plain scriptures to make a point? Is it good to disregard what Christ plainly says because of Paul's writings...





2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

(What's a passage about people not understanding Paul's end-times teachings got to do with what he taught about the law? But anyway...)

Until a person is able to understand the difference between 'love your neighbor as yourself', and the worship, separation, and cleanliness laws they will not understand what Paul taught about the law and it's role in this New Covenant.

The first covenant of temple, priest, and sacrifice and how we were required to approach God in worship that way has been made obsolete and no longer needed by the New Way of faith in Christ that overcomes all the legislated limitations of that old way and makes them no longer needed. Not abolished, not destroyed...simply not needed anymore. What those rules and regulations sought to do is now done through the new and better Covenant, Jesus Christ.

 

[smaller]

(What's a passage about people not understanding Paul's end-times teachings got to do with what he taught about the law? But anyway...)

Until a person is able to understand the difference between 'love your neighbor as yourself', and the worship, separation, and cleanliness laws they will not understand what Paul taught about the law and it's role in this New Covenant.

The first covenant of temple, priest, and sacrifice and how we were required to approach God in worship that way has been made obsolete and no longer needed by the New Way of faith in Christ that overcomes all the legislated limitations of that old way and makes them no longer needed. Not abolished, not destroyed...simply not needed anymore. What those rules and regulations sought to do is now done through the new and better Covenant, Jesus Christ.

Very few understand that The Word Is A Parable that takes on a LIFE of HIS OWN.

It is sown in parable form IN THE HEART and springs up therein. In the process of that springing, weeds in heart also grow in that same light. This is parabolic of the sin we carry 'in heart.'

The Word or the Law as a parable brings much much more understanding.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The parable, the Word, is sown in the heart.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Very few understand that The Word Is A Parable that takes on a LIFE of HIS OWN.

It is sown in parable form IN THE HEART and springs up therein. In the process of that springing, weeds in heart also grow in that same light. This is parabolic of the sin we carry 'in heart.'

The Word or the Law as a parable brings much much more understanding.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The parable, the Word, is sown in the heart.

s

Within just decades of the Apostles ministry, the church somehow went to the other extreme away from the Judaizers and decided that it was categorically anathema to keep any of the first covenant worship regulations for any and all reasons, instead of just understanding that they ceased to be a matter of punishable law anymore. Because of that misguided and erroneous teaching the church is virtually bereft of any real understanding of the old covenant and it's role in the life of God's people then, and now.

 

[smaller]

Within just decades of the Apostles ministry, the church somehow went to the other extreme away from the Judaizers and decided that it was categorically anathema to keep any of the first covenant worship regulations for any and all reasons, instead of just understanding that they ceased to be a matter of punishable law anymore. Because of that misguided and erroneous teaching the church is virtually bereft of any real understanding of the old covenant and it's role in the life of God's people then, and now.

Indeed. In many ways the various churches went about erecting alternative rituals and doctrines and pretty much landed in a similar place as the O.T. Jews, just applying different formats. One can read of the things that the Pharisees did in the N.T. that Jesus hated and decried and find these same practices in place in churches today, nearly identical.

It was in reading Jesus' Words on these matters that caused me to see myself as a modern day Pharisee, and it was a revolting view.

The Word forced 'reassessment.'

s