Jesus on Non-Violence

[SpagLard]

How does God answer prayer by giving someone the power to do what He's said not to do?

God also clearly said " thou shallt not kill" , correct ?

How do you rhyme that with ;

Look at Abraham, did he protect Isaac? He could have said no, but he didn't
he trusted God even to the point of taking Isaac's life.

the Scriptures say what they say whether we agree or not, whether that's what we want to hear or not.

So, the Lord God helps some humans to kill other humans.. but also commands us to not kill .

Or,

http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Joshua+10:10-27

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.
JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.
JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.
JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.
JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.
JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.
JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

God's ways remain mysterious.
I'm just glad God breaks his own rules at times.

 

[WIP]

I'm wondering. Are we confusing self defense with revenge? Also, with regard to Jesus response to violence against him, when it was "not his time" he took flight but when it was "his time" he accepted his fate. He knew his purpose was to take the sins of this world upon his shoulders and die on the cross. We don't have that foreknowledge about ourselves when someone is attempting to do us harm, do we?

 

[SpagLard]

I'm wondering. Are we confusing self defense with revenge?

I can't speak for everyone, but to me they are two distinctly different things.

Also, with regard to Jesus response to violence against him, when it was "not his time" he took flight but when it was "his time" he accepted his fate. He knew his purpose was to take the sins of this world upon his shoulders and die on the cross.

Agreed. But i don't think he ever actually asks of us to emulate him in doing so.
Jesus in a very real manner Chose his Fate.
I think our free will and faith in Christ allow us to do the same.
Choose/influence our own fate.

I can only speak for myself, i Chose a different fate then to be beaten and robbed. It was not my time.

We don't have that foreknowledge about ourselves when someone is attempting to do us harm, do we?

No we don't.
All we have is Faith in god's benevolence / righteousness.

 

[nmwings]

Should I assume that you are living under the old covenant since that command comes from the old covenant?There is no promise of eternal life under that covenant. Additionally, that covenant is no longer in effect.

Please honor the subject of this thread and do not go off-topic! You do not realize that it is in that “Old†Covenant that promises us the Redeemer. If you abolish the promise, you abolish the Redeemer. See my posts in the threads “THE BLOOD COVENANT†and “God is a Covenant God†if you wish to continue that topic. However, I will address Rom 12:19 which says, “Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"[

Now compare it to the law YOU say has been abolished… Lev 19:18 “You shall not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. Paul isn’t giving us any new commandments… he reinforces the OLD. And the Messiah didn’t give us any new commandments either… He reinforces the OLD.

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;(Eph 2:14-15 KJV)

The “enmity†is not the law itself, but the penalty for breaking the law, which is death. Remember… the Messiah passed us from death to life. Your interpretation of what brings life has been twisted by the doctrines of men, of which you cling to in error. Listen to what the Lord has said about what brings life and what brings death:

"Fort his commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? 'But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13KJV)

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.(Heb 7:11-12 KJV)

Again, this goes WAAAY beyond the topic of this thread, but the Book of Hebrews is the ONLY place in all of Scripture that says this, contradicting the very words of God, the Messiah, and all of the prophets.

The Law of Moses is no longer in effect, it has ended we are to follow the New Covenantwhich does not allow for violence.

Here is the prophecy of the “New†Covenant to which you speak:

Jer 31:31-34 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord,when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, (the author of the book of Hebrews deliberatly misquotes this passage in order to further his wicked agenda, by saying He "REGARDED THEM NOT) says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God,and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." The Lord HIMSELF says the law will NEVER be abolished, but rather, it will be WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS.


Butch 5, I will not respond to any further comments you may have about what I just wrote on this particular thread. The topic here is about non-violence in the life of believers. If you wish, join me on the topics I mentioned above....

 

[John 8:32]

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

There is a time and place for war...

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

 

[Free]

God also clearly said " thou shallt not kill" , correct ?

Not really. The better reading is "murder," not "kill."

 

[nmwings]

I'm wondering. Are we confusing self defense with revenge?

Yes, indeed!

 

[Tri Unity]

Well that was not an option in my situation,
i was on the floor and overpowered by two men.

I was in a similar situation, as I said earlier. I had 3 assailants who threatened to rape my wife and kill me, and they attempted to do this. I was beaten till I was unconscious with steel poles, and my wife was beaten too. They fled the scene because they thought they killed me. My skull was cracked; my eye was pieced, and several other bones were smashed. It has taken me years to recover - I am still recovering. Instead of being angry with God, I was angry with myself. I was "luke-warm" at the time.

One of the assailants got injured badly; and I am not sorry about that. I do not think I did wrong, and I do not think I should have played possum. I don't believe this was expected of me. I needed to defend myself and my wife. If anyone was attacking my children I would not just sit around and ask them to please stop. You did nothing wrong if you defended yourself. You are not Jesus. He was martyred... that is a different circumstance again.

 

[jasoncran]

Please honor the subject of this thread and do not go off-topic! You do not realize that it is in that “Old†Covenant that promises us the Redeemer. If you abolish the promise, you abolish the Redeemer. See my posts in the threads “THE BLOOD COVENANT†and “God is a Covenant God†if you wish to continue that topic. However, I will address Rom 12:19 which says, “Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"[

Now compare it to the law YOU say has been abolished… Lev 19:18 “You shall not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. Paul isn’t giving us any new commandments… he reinforces the OLD. And the Messiah didn’t give us any new commandments either… He reinforces the OLD.



The “enmity†is not the law itself, but the penalty for breaking the law, which is death. Remember… the Messiah passed us from death to life. Your interpretation of what brings life has been twisted by the doctrines of men, of which you cling to in error. Listen to what the Lord has said about what brings life and what brings death:

"Fort his commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? 'But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."



Again, this goes WAAAY beyond the topic of this thread, but the Book of Hebrews is the ONLY place in all of Scripture that says this, contradicting the very words of God, the Messiah, and all of the prophets.



Here is the prophecy of the “New†Covenant to which you speak:

Jer 31:31-34 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord,when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, (the author of the book of Hebrews deliberatly misquotes this passage in order to further his wicked agenda, by saying He "REGARDED THEM NOT) says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God,and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." The Lord HIMSELF says the law will NEVER be abolished, but rather, it will be WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS.


Butch 5, I will not respond to any further comments you may have about what I just wrote on this particular thread. The topic here is about non-violence in the life of believers. If you wish, join me on the topics I mentioned above....

sheesh and butch5 is trying to tell me im wrong on isreal in other thread. the law is indeed not fulfilled but in us. jesus quoted the torah on those love thy enemies things. hmm

but oh well i have debated this stuff too ,many times. i will say this. we are doing a gun safety class in church and we have taught the armor of god using military armor of today and cop vests etc of today. we are also using the bibles description and having the kids build that stuff the belt of truth is next. i will be using my molle vest to show the idea of what that was for then and now.

 

[SpagLard]

Not really. The better reading is "murder," not "kill."

i stand corrected. agreed.

 

[Adstar]

I have repeatedly presented this bit of dialogue between Jesus and Pilate when the issue of "Christians and the use of force" comes up:

Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, “ Are You the King of the Jews?†34 Jesus answered, “Are you saying this [j]on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?†35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?†36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.â€

Now: I believe no one has ever responded to what I see as the clear implication of Jesus' statement at the end: it is in the nature of being citizens of the Kingdom of God that the use of force is rejected.

Which kingdom, exactly, do those of you who think Christians can participate in armed activity claim citizenship?

I am a Christian and i believe Jesus and i do not take any part in carnal combat. So i agree with non-resistance as the Christian position to take.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[nmwings]

sheesh and butch5 is trying to tell me im wrong on isreal in other thread. the law is indeed not fulfilled but in us. jesus quoted the torah on those love thy enemies things. hmm.

Yes, I’m afraid we are outnumbered on this particular subject. I have not encountered sheesh, but butch 5 is VERY set in his ways. He can become quite hostile. But then, so can a LOT of people when they hear truth but refuse to let go of their precious "traditions of men." But we must not give up. Maybe someone, somewhere, sometime, will actually HEAR the truth and believe it, rather than continue to follow everyone else over the cliff like a bunch of lemmings.

we are doing a gun safety class in church and we have taught the armor of god using military armor of today and cop vests etc of today. we are also using the bibles description and having the kids build that stuff the belt of truth is next. i will be using my molle vest to show the idea of what that was for then and now.

That’s great! The last safety seminar I took was a couple of years ago during some advanced tactical training. Every once in a while, I chide my husband because I outshot the pants off of him!! We still practice, but not as much as we probably should.

 

[Drew]

You apply this question to very broad terms. But you negate the fact that the Lord commanded us into armed conflict when we first took possession of the Land, and that He was with us every step of the way.

I have not negated this.

Obviously, I would have to be exceedingly Biblical illiterate to not know that God has condoned, and even encouraged armed conflict. I am more than aware of this.

But the Bible presents us with an unfolding, evolving narrative, and things change dramatically at the cross.

In short, the fact that God condoned the use of violence in the Old Testament is not a very strong argument that He condones it under the new covenant.

Things change, it is called a new covenant for a reason.

 

[Drew]

Nowhere in Scripture does it say you cannot defend yourself or your possessions.

This is not really a very good argument. Nowhere in Scripture does it say we cannot kick puppies. Yet, clearly we should not. Beside, I suggest we are effectively told that the use of violent resistance it out for the Christian. We are told to love our enemies - it is hard to reconcile trying to kill your enemy with loving him or her.

The commandment is not to murder, but the Church has twisted that into the all-encompassing "kill."

I agree that the church has made this error, but it is not really relevant since, as per my earlier post, I have already conceded that God condoned the use of violence under the Old Covenant (and the 10 commandments are part the Old Covenant).

 

[Drew]

I am a Christian and i believe Jesus and i do not take any part in carnal combat. So i agree with non-resistance as the Christian position to take.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I think you are on the right track. I humbly suggest you consider using the argument I have presented (if you have not already heard it) to explain to other believers that Jesus really does connect non-violence to membership in the Kingdom of God. I have never encountered a valid counter-argument to this line of reasoning.

 

[Drew]

How can you advocate political involvement but stop short of war?

Well, I advocate "involvement" with prostitutes - in the sense of telling them the gospel - but stop short of having sexual relations with them.

Politics and war are two sides of the same coin. If you are involved with one you are involved with the other.

I do not think this is correct. It is entirely coherent to try and transform the institutions of this world for the better and yet refuse to participate in everything those institutions do.

 

[Drew]

There is a time and place for war...

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

One cannot simply use this line of reasoning - it comes back to bite you. In Ecclesiastes, we are told "all is vanity". Elsewhere (if not in Ecclesiastes, certainly in Job) we are told that "when you die, its all over".

The point is this: not every statement in the scriptures should be read as an item of doctrine - sometimes the authors are making statements that turn out to be theologically incorrect. Example: When Job says "when you're dead, that's it". We all know from the broader narrative that this is not the case.

I politely suggest that, in the Kingdom of God, there is, in fact, no "time to kill". Jesus died to reverse the curse, to defeat death (which is a slap in the face to God's creation that He loves).

Death is bad, it is the enemy. It has been defeated in principle at the cross and someday will not exist at all (1 Corinthians 15). I see no case at all for Christian participation in visiting death upon anyone.

That would be working against the achievement of the cross.

 

[Tri Unity]

Well, I advocate "involvement" with prostitutes - in the sense of telling them the gospel - but stop short of having sexual relations with them.

This logic is very much like a kid getting his friend to steal a lolly and insisting that he did not steal it. You are making light of your involvement in war. Preaching to prostitutes is not the same as sanctioning war; or the political party that you belong to sanctioning war. You can try to sit on the sidelines and pretend you had nothing to do with it; but you did! We could say 'we vote for Satan, but we don't agree with him persecuting Christians; we simply believe he is the best candidate. He is right on so many other things.' Drew, your logic has been your peril!

 

[Tri Unity]

butch 5 is VERY set in his ways. He can become quite hostile.

'Thank you God that I am holier than these other sinners.'
Luke 18:11

 

[Drew]

This logic is very much like a kid getting his friend to steal a lolly and insisting that he did not steal it. You are making light of your involvement in war.

I am doing no such thing. Remember: I am on your side of the "war" issue.

And I see no error in my logic. Choosing to be involved in the political process to bring kingdom of God principles to it, without sanctioning war is perfectly logical. You are not explaining to the reader why this is an "all or nothing" proposition.

Please explain to us precisely how it is that one is somehow obliged to support war just by virtue of a commitment to be involved in the political process.