Jesus on Non-Violence

[Tri Unity]

I am doing no such thing. Remember: I am on your side of the "war" issue.

Only superficially.

And I see no error in my logic. Choosing to be involved in the political process to bring kingdom of God principles to it, without sanctioning war is perfectly logical.

This logic, again, has derailed you. You are trusting in your logic in spite that neither the scriptures nor history supports your view.

You are not explaining to the reader why this is an "all or nothing" proposition.
Please explain to us precisely how it is that one is somehow obliged to support war just by virtue of a commitment to be involved in the political process.

A commitment to the political process is accomadating and in tacit agreement with war; brothels; drug houses, pre-marital sex; homosexuality; evolution; atheism; capitalism; globalism; usury; slavery (ot the third world), etc, etc. You vote for institutions that uphold every ungodly practice, and you think that you will escape judgment for this dual-value system. You justify making treaties of compliance with homosexuals, etc, based on some idealism that you will somehow improve the lives of unbelievers. This concept is a very different gospel to that of Jesus and the Apostles.

You seem like you will not change your views ever - even if Jesus was to personally correct you; you would even argue the point with Him. Apart from your otherwise soft and gentle teachings; your beliefs are in total betrayal of the Kingdom of God - IMO.

I hope that addresses "why this is an "all or nothing" proposition."

Tri

 

[Tri Unity]

I am doing no such thing. Remember: I am on your side of the "war" issue.

Only superficially.

And I see no error in my logic. Choosing to be involved in the political process to bring kingdom of God principles to it, without sanctioning war is perfectly logical.

This logic, again, has derailed you. You are trusting in your logic in spite that neither the scriptures nor history supports your view.

You are not explaining to the reader why this is an "all or nothing" proposition.
Please explain to us precisely how it is that one is somehow obliged to support war just by virtue of a commitment to be involved in the political process.

A commitment to the political process is accomadating and in tacit agreement with war; brothels; drug houses, pre-marital sex; homosexuality; evolution; atheism; capitalism; globalism; usury; slavery (of the third world), etc, etc. You vote for institutions that uphold every ungodly practice, and you think that you will escape judgment for this dual-value system. You justify making treaties of compliance with homosexuals, etc, based on some idealism that you will somehow improve the lives of unbelievers. This concept is a very different gospel to that of Jesus and the Apostles.

You seem like you will not change your views ever - even if Jesus was to personally correct you - you would even argue the point with Him. Apart from your otherwise soft and gentle teachings; your beliefs are in total betrayal of the Kingdom of God - IMO.

I hope that addresses "why this is an "all or nothing" proposition."

Tri

 

[nmwings]

Nowhere in Scripture does it say we cannot kick puppies.)

Actually, it does. Everyone has heard what the “greatest†commandment is, but what is the “least†commandment that Messiah mentioned in Matt 5:19? The sages of Israel say the least of the commandments is Deut 22:6-7 If a bird's nest happens to be before you along the way, in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs, with the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young; you shall surely let the mother go, and take the young for yourself, that it may be well with you and that you may prolong your days.

Which goes hand in hand with Deut 22:10 You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together And Ex 23:19 You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk.

These commandments address the issue of kindness to all animals, whether they are wild or domestic. Granted, we are given charge over them, but in no way are we given permission to mistreat or abuse them. A person who does so fails to recognize that they abuse and mistreat something that was fashioned by the hand of God, and He knows when every single one of them dies (Matt 10:29.) Anyone who is cruel to any of God’s creations (including animals) will be ashamed when they stand before the Lord.

Beside, I suggest we are effectively told that the use of violent resistance it out for the Christian. We are told to love our enemies - it is hard to reconcile trying to kill your enemy with loving him or her. )

Matt 5:43"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' There is NO commandment ANYWHERE from God that says to “hate your enemy.†This is an example of the commandments of MEN that the Messiah was so opposed to. The Messiah’s #1 point of contention was that they were NOT obeying the words of Moses, but rather adhering to the commandments of MEN.

 

[Butch5]

It seems you're over simplifing the issue. No where does Jesus say we cannot defend ourselves from attack. Using force to get away from people who want to hurt you is far far different to taking a sword and hacking someones ear off. Blocking a punch is using force but it is not in anger or to harm but to defend. Context is vital. Attacking in revenge is what Christ was talking about in his "turn the other cheek" message. We are not to use force to defend Christ or his message. Having God command something is not the context here so your analogy is flawed.

I'm not oversimplifying it. It's those who don't seem to like it that want to change what was said. Jesus said do not resisit evil. This was the understanding from the very beginning.

 

[Butch5]

God also clearly said " thou shallt not kill" , correct ?

How do you rhyme that with ;





So, the Lord God helps some humans to kill other humans.. but also commands us to not kill .

I didn't say that.

 

[jasoncran]

i dont posses a firearm but i serve my country. that said i do think a gun safety class is good. it prevents accidents and teaches kids the good use for a gun and takes the curiousity out of it.

 

[Butch5]

Please honor the subject of this thread and do not go off-topic! You do not realize that it is in that “Old†Covenant that promises us the Redeemer. If you abolish the promise, you abolish the Redeemer. See my posts in the threads “THE BLOOD COVENANT†and “God is a Covenant God†if you wish to continue that topic. However, I will address Rom 12:19 which says, “Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"[

Now compare it to the law YOU say has been abolished… Lev 19:18 “You shall not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. Paul isn’t giving us any new commandments… he reinforces the OLD. And the Messiah didn’t give us any new commandments either… He reinforces the OLD.

You didn't answer. The old Law has been done away with. There is a new covenant and it does not include violence. It is telling that those who would allow the use of violence "MUST" go to that old covenant in an attempt to find support since there is "NONE" in the new covenant.

The “enmity†is not the law itself, but the penalty for breaking the law, which is death. Remember… the Messiah passed us from death to life. Your interpretation of what brings life has been twisted by the doctrines of men, of which you cling to in error. Listen to what the Lord has said about what brings life and what brings death:

"Fort his commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? 'But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."



Again, this goes WAAAY beyond the topic of this thread, but the Book of Hebrews is the ONLY place in all of Scripture that says this, contradicting the very words of God, the Messiah, and all of the prophets.

It's interesting that you say my understanding has been twisted. In the passage you quoted God has promised to let Israel live in the promised land if they will obey Him. How does this further your argument that the Law has not ended?

Here is the prophecy of the “New†Covenant to which you speak:

Jer 31:31-34 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord,when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, (the author of the book of Hebrews deliberatly misquotes this passage in order to further his wicked agenda, by saying He "REGARDED THEM NOT) says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God,and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." The Lord HIMSELF says the law will NEVER be abolished, but rather, it will be WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS.

Tha would be Christ's Law, the Law of Liberty.

That's an interesting take on Hebrews, wicked aganda? There is some early evidence that the epistle is Paul's

Butch 5, I will not respond to any further comments you may have about what I just wrote on this particular thread. The topic here is about non-violence in the life of believers. If you wish, join me on the topics I mentioned above....

I was addressing the issue of non-violence. You appealed to the old covenant, I simply pointed out that it has concluded.

 

[jasoncran]

so i can sin all i want. disobey my parents? for something dead fully then why did paul quote it?

 

[Butch5]

Yes, I’m afraid we are outnumbered on this particular subject. I have not encountered sheesh, but butch 5 is VERY set in his ways. He can become quite hostile. But then, so can a LOT of people when they hear truth but refuse to let go of their precious "traditions of men." But we must not give up. Maybe someone, somewhere, sometime, will actually HEAR the truth and believe it, rather than continue to follow everyone else over the cliff like a bunch of lemmings.

That’s great! The last safety seminar I took was a couple of years ago during some advanced tactical training. Every once in a while, I chide my husband because I outshot the pants off of him!! We still practice, but not as much as we probably should.

Actually, I'm not set in my ways at all. I apologize if I came across as hostile that was not the intent. You talk about the teachings of men and hearing the truth. Well, I used to be like others just following the crowd. However, several years ago I began to search the Scriptures, I don't care men teach. While searching the Scriptures I also began to study how the very first Christians understood the Scriptures because I was tired of all of the "doctrines" of men. Some say you can lose your salvation, some say you can't. Some say you go to heaven when you die, some say you don't. Some say man has no choice in salvation, some say he does. I got really tired of the doctrines of men, especially men who really don't know much more than anyone else. My search lead me back to the beginning and in that I changed about 80 of what I believed because it didn't line up with Scripture. Now I don't have this verse and that verse that I have to pretend isn't there because it contradicts what I believe. You see by by-passing the doctrines of men I was able to go to the beginning and find out what was first believed and see that it lines up nicely with the Scriptures without all of the problems that modern theological systems suffer. For the first 300 years of church history Christians wouldn't use violence for any reason. As one early Christian said, 'in our religion it is better to be slain than to slay.' That lines up perfectly with the words of Jesus and the apostles. It doesn't line up with the beliefs of many today. The quote is interesting because it is not a personal opinion rather a statement about “our religion.â€

 

[Butch5]

so i can sin all i want. disobey my parents? for something dead fully then why did paul quote it?

If this is to me I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Tri Unity]

...several years ago I began to search the Scriptures, I don't care men teach. While searching the Scriptures I also began to study how the very first Christians understood the Scriptures because I was tired of all of the "doctrines" of men. Some say you can lose your salvation, some say you can't. Some say you go to heaven when you die, some say you don't. Some say man has no choice in salvation, some say he does. I got really tired of the doctrines of men, especially men who really don't know much more than anyone else. My search lead me back to the beginning and in that I changed about 80 of what I believed because it didn't line up with Scripture. Now I don't have this verse and that verse that I have to pretend isn't there because it contradicts what I believe. You see by by-passing the doctrines of men I was able to go to the beginning and find out what was first believed and see that it lines up nicely with the Scriptures without all of the problems that modern theological systems suffer. For the first 300 years of church history Christians wouldn't use violence for any reason.

This is pretty much my experience too. I am one who very much appreciates that you were strong enough to take that journey. Let's hope there are many other who follow.

 

[Butch5]

This is pretty much my experience too. I am one who very much appreciates that you were strong enough to take that journey. Let's hope there are many other who follow.

Hi Tri Unity,

It started for me when I was being taught contradictory doctrines by two different churches. When I first came to Christ it was at a Baptist church which taught anyone could be saved but that you couldn't lose your salvation. Years later I was at a Presbyterian church being taught the Reformed doctrines. It was obvious that at least one maybe both of these churches were wrong. About that time I bought an ipod and put the Bible on it. Being in construction and driving several hours a day I was able to listen to the NT over and over and over again. I quickly came upon many passages of Scripture that were contradicting what I was being told at the Presbyterian Church. I questioned the pastors but they were unable to answer the questions sufficiently and that sent me on a search for the truth. In that search I was lead to the early Christians and as I saw what they believed and how it lined up with Scripture without all of the problems that modern systems have I was very much relieved. It was like a breath of fresh air. To see 300 years of Christians in agreement was amazing. Looking at the writings of men, some of which actually knew and fellowshipped with the apostles and see how they understood the teaching of the apostles and how it fit so nicely with Scripture is refreshing. For me it’s about finding the truth, I don’t care what doctrines have to go, no more of the "doctrines" of men.

 

[ironsights]

JESUS is not a Pacifist.
By Darren Morrison
The Jesus of the Bible, the one that the four gospels testify about, was not a pacifist. The liberal churches tout Jesus as being some feminine pacifist. To them Jesus was just a happy go lucky hippie, hardly anything holy in that. By careful examination the bible you can know how Jesus was and is.
Let’s look at the actions of our Lord and savior. Matthew 21:12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13. And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. Jesus overturned the tables; that is an act of violence. He threw people out of the temple. You see my Lord and savior is not a feminized man like you see among the pacifists.
Here is another point that will testify that my Lord and Savior was not a pacifist. A true pacifist would never own any kind of weapon. They would not even own a knife unless it was for cutting vegetables or as decorations in their house. Luke 22:36. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. These are the very words of Jesus and it is clear to me he is telling his apostles to buy a sword. In today’s world that would be the same as saying to buy a gun, and so I have a gun so I can protect my family.
Did Jesus come to teach us about peace? Did he come to bring about world peace? The answer is no on both. Jesus is the prince of peace but did not come to bring the type of peace the pacifists talk about. Matthew 10:34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. You see the pacifist believe in worldly peace, Jesus is the prince of peace this is a fact. But he is not the prince of worldly peace. John 14:27. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. That is inner peace, where you know for sure that you will go to heaven when you die. That peace comes only from GOD and it wells up inside your soul. You see, before I was saved I had an emptiness inside a void I could not fill. Jesus filled that void with his peace. But people who live after the lust of the world have no inner peace, so they lash out and hold up peace signs.
Now understand this, Jesus is for self-defense but he is against revenge. Romans 12:19. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. We as true Christians are not to take revenge; our Lord Jesus will take his revenge out on the wicked. Now if someone threatens you it is not a sin to protect yourself and in fact it is down right biblical. 2 Thessalonians1: 7. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;. You see those who do not follow Jesus he will take violent actions against them. What will I be doing when Jesus takes revenge on those in false religions, drug users, whores, abortion supporters, Marxists and other evil folks? Psalms 58:10. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Jesus was not vegans as well. A vegan is a person who thanks it is unrighteous to eat meat. I have seen on the vegan web sites claiming Jesus was a vegan. Well Jesus ate the Passover and that meal consisted of lamb. He served fish on two occasions. In Genesis 4 we read that Cain offered an unacceptable sacrifice he brought a vegan sacrifice of fruit, vegetables and grains. Able, the more Godly of the two, killed one of his flock, a fatted lamb. He killed a lamb for GOD and GOD was pleased. Those who follow the word of GOD cannot find any biblical grounds for veganism. It is not a sin to kill any animals for food, for leather or fur, for pest control or to benefit medical science. “Thou shalt not kill.†applies to murder like what Cain did to his brother Able.
Sometimes good people have to war with evil people. Communism is a threat to all Christians. More Christians have died at the hands of Marxists than anyone else even Catholics and Muslims. Christians have always been persecuted. So when communism threatens our way of life it is just to war. Hitler was a national socialist, just another brand of Marxism. He was also a threat to the Christian way of life. It is not a sin to join the arm services.
Bad things happen when good people do nothing. I am talking about Christians, those who support a country that gives us religious freedom. America still sends out more missionaries than any other country in the world and though it is becoming less and less of a Christian country every year at least we can still fight for freedom and liberty. God bless our Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines who are willing to fight for what is right. They are the peacemakers. 1 Timothy 6:12. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. We as Christians are to witness for the Lord Jesus, but if we are in bondage to tyrants how can we? That is why it is justice to rid the world of tyrants like King George, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Ernesto Che Guevara and Saddam Hussein.
` Jesus was not a Pacifist and neither am I. Jesus is the lamb, Revelations 6:16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The Lamb is Jesus and the wrath of the lamb is the wrath of Jesus. Well there is no wrath of a pacifist so by this very verse there is no way possible that Jesus can be a pacifist. Those who serve self instead of God will suffer, Revelation 15:1. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. The righteous will not suffer the wrath of our Lord. Proverbs 11:23. The desire of the righteous is only good: but the expectation of the wicked is wrath. Those who commit sin after sin and refuse to repent of those sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will get to see firsthand how much of a pacifist the Lord is.
Many want to make all religions as one they want to combine Islam, Buddhism, Hindu and so on. They want to believe that all religions must be tolerant when none of them are but the only religion they want to force to be tolerant is Christianity. They hate Christians with a passion. Funny how they hate us under the disguise of toleration and diversity. There is only one way to salvation and it is not from any Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, Baha’u’llah or any other false messiah. No Jesus is the only one. Ephesians 4:5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. There is only one way to the father that way is though Jesus not the Jesus of the false churches like Quakers and Unitarians who believe and teach that Jesus was a feminized pacifist. No the real Jesus is the one who stood for the truth and will destroy the wicked. John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Not to tolerant but it is the truth.

 

[Butch5]

JESUS is not a Pacifist.
By Darren Morrison
The Jesus of the Bible, the one that the four gospels testify about, was not a pacifist. The liberal churches tout Jesus as being some feminine pacifist. To them Jesus was just a happy go lucky hippie, hardly anything holy in that. By careful examination the bible you can know how Jesus was and is.
Let’s look at the actions of our Lord and savior. Matthew 21:12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13. And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. Jesus overturned the tables; that is an act of violence. He threw people out of the temple. You see my Lord and savior is not a feminized man like you see among the pacifists.
Here is another point that will testify that my Lord and Savior was not a pacifist. A true pacifist would never own any kind of weapon. They would not even own a knife unless it was for cutting vegetables or as decorations in their house. Luke 22:36. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. These are the very words of Jesus and it is clear to me he is telling his apostles to buy a sword. In today’s world that would be the same as saying to buy a gun, and so I have a gun so I can protect my family.
Did Jesus come to teach us about peace? Did he come to bring about world peace? The answer is no on both. Jesus is the prince of peace but did not come to bring the type of peace the pacifists talk about. Matthew 10:34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. You see the pacifist believe in worldly peace, Jesus is the prince of peace this is a fact. But he is not the prince of worldly peace. John 14:27. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. That is inner peace, where you know for sure that you will go to heaven when you die. That peace comes only from GOD and it wells up inside your soul. You see, before I was saved I had an emptiness inside a void I could not fill. Jesus filled that void with his peace. But people who live after the lust of the world have no inner peace, so they lash out and hold up peace signs.
Now understand this, Jesus is for self-defense but he is against revenge. Romans 12:19. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. We as true Christians are not to take revenge; our Lord Jesus will take his revenge out on the wicked. Now if someone threatens you it is not a sin to protect yourself and in fact it is down right biblical. 2 Thessalonians1: 7. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;. You see those who do not follow Jesus he will take violent actions against them. What will I be doing when Jesus takes revenge on those in false religions, drug users, whores, abortion supporters, Marxists and other evil folks? Psalms 58:10. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Jesus was not vegans as well. A vegan is a person who thanks it is unrighteous to eat meat. I have seen on the vegan web sites claiming Jesus was a vegan. Well Jesus ate the Passover and that meal consisted of lamb. He served fish on two occasions. In Genesis 4 we read that Cain offered an unacceptable sacrifice he brought a vegan sacrifice of fruit, vegetables and grains. Able, the more Godly of the two, killed one of his flock, a fatted lamb. He killed a lamb for GOD and GOD was pleased. Those who follow the word of GOD cannot find any biblical grounds for veganism. It is not a sin to kill any animals for food, for leather or fur, for pest control or to benefit medical science. “Thou shalt not kill.†applies to murder like what Cain did to his brother Able.
Sometimes good people have to war with evil people. Communism is a threat to all Christians. More Christians have died at the hands of Marxists than anyone else even Catholics and Muslims. Christians have always been persecuted. So when communism threatens our way of life it is just to war. Hitler was a national socialist, just another brand of Marxism. He was also a threat to the Christian way of life. It is not a sin to join the arm services.
Bad things happen when good people do nothing. I am talking about Christians, those who support a country that gives us religious freedom. America still sends out more missionaries than any other country in the world and though it is becoming less and less of a Christian country every year at least we can still fight for freedom and liberty. God bless our Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines who are willing to fight for what is right. They are the peacemakers. 1 Timothy 6:12. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. We as Christians are to witness for the Lord Jesus, but if we are in bondage to tyrants how can we? That is why it is justice to rid the world of tyrants like King George, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Ernesto Che Guevara and Saddam Hussein.
` Jesus was not a Pacifist and neither am I. Jesus is the lamb, Revelations 6:16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The Lamb is Jesus and the wrath of the lamb is the wrath of Jesus. Well there is no wrath of a pacifist so by this very verse there is no way possible that Jesus can be a pacifist. Those who serve self instead of God will suffer, Revelation 15:1. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. The righteous will not suffer the wrath of our Lord. Proverbs 11:23. The desire of the righteous is only good: but the expectation of the wicked is wrath. Those who commit sin after sin and refuse to repent of those sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will get to see firsthand how much of a pacifist the Lord is.
Many want to make all religions as one they want to combine Islam, Buddhism, Hindu and so on. They want to believe that all religions must be tolerant when none of them are but the only religion they want to force to be tolerant is Christianity. They hate Christians with a passion. Funny how they hate us under the disguise of toleration and diversity. There is only one way to salvation and it is not from any Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, Baha’u’llah or any other false messiah. No Jesus is the only one. Ephesians 4:5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. There is only one way to the father that way is though Jesus not the Jesus of the false churches like Quakers and Unitarians who believe and teach that Jesus was a feminized pacifist. No the real Jesus is the one who stood for the truth and will destroy the wicked. John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Not to tolerant but it is the truth.

I didn't even make it through the second paragraph without multiple fallacies and assumptions.

 

[Tri Unity]

Hi Tri Unity,

It started for me when I was being taught contradictory doctrines by two different churches. When I first came to Christ it was at a Baptist church which taught anyone could be saved but that you couldn't lose your salvation. Years later I was at a Presbyterian church being taught the Reformed doctrines. It was obvious that at least one maybe both of these churches were wrong. About that time I bought an ipod and put the Bible on it. Being in construction and driving several hours a day I was able to listen to the NT over and over and over again. I quickly came upon many passages of Scripture that were contradicting what I was being told at the Presbyterian Church. I questioned the pastors but they were unable to answer the questions sufficiently and that sent me on a search for the truth. In that search I was lead to the early Christians and as I saw what they believed and how it lined up with Scripture without all of the problems that modern systems have I was very much relieved. It was like a breath of fresh air. To see 300 years of Christians in agreement was amazing. Looking at the writings of men, some of which actually knew and fellowshipped with the apostles and see how they understood the teaching of the apostles and how it fit so nicely with Scripture is refreshing. For me it’s about finding the truth, I don’t care what doctrines have to go, no more of the "doctrines" of men.

For me, I was so sick of hearing so many different interpretations from different churches I was desperate for a plumb-line to straighten my path. Everyone said they used the bible for their source; yet they all had different views. I used to go to different churches to examine their teachings first hand. I've seen and heard some terrible things in churches. I first came across the Early Church Fathers by two ways. I became curious, first, about what churches, sects and cults that existed in the first century. I thought at first that there were only the Pharisees and Sadducees and the Herodians, as the scriptures mentioned. But after learning about the Dead Sea Scrolls I also found out about the Essenes. Then I found out who the Zealots and the Sacarii were. Then came the Adamites, the Basilidians, the Dorithiani, the Ebionites, the Ophites, the Tiberian Masoretes, and dozens more. Eventually, through more research, I learnt about how the christian gnostics started under the schools of Simon Magus. I stumbled upon the works of Clement, who I had never heard of until then; and that became a turning point.

Next, I was a avid reader of Christianity Today, and I saw an advert by the Electronic Bible Society asking for donations from charter members to sponsor the accumulation of 300 years of church writings onto a CD. I became a charter member, and about 2 years later they sent me a copy of the first 800 years of Christian writings. That was about 17 years ago. Over the years I have been chomping away at them, and learning things about my faith that I had no idea about. I have sinse then changed many of my opinions about what Christianity teaches. I am still learning, but I am at least no longer confused.

Because most false teachings originated back in these times, you are able to see when and how false ideas developed in a time-line. This still fascinates me. Equally, many people who believe they are teaching what the Apostles taught are actually teaching the opposite. This staggers me as well; yet but for the grace of God, there go I. I think the church will go into a true revival before the end, and it will be because more and more people will 'wake-up' after they become exposed to the original teachings. I am looking forward to that time. As you probably know, many of these writings were unavailable to the world until recently. "Knowledge has increased". This to me is a sign of great things to come very soon.

 

[AirDancer]

Very intriguing, Tri Unity... Would you be interested in selecting a topic from the ancient writings/peoples which you have studied, and start a thread in the Bible Study Forum? BSF is only discussion, no debates...which would make for an excellent site for this.

Would you have time to do so, and to lead the discussion?

Please, give it some thought.

 

[jasoncran]

If this is to me I don't know what you're talking about.

you claimed the old law died and is off no point. define sin. where do you get and why is the idea of the word scriptures not even being the entire bible in pauls day? when the beareans searched the scriptures it wasnt the nt but the tanach and any orally passed gospel given to them.

 

[Butch5]

you claimed the old law died and is off no point. define sin. where do you get and why is the idea of the word scriptures not even being the entire bible in pauls day? when the beareans searched the scriptures it wasnt the nt but the tanach and any orally passed gospel given to them.

The Old Law ceased with it's ordinances. Jesus reiterated much of the moral teachings in the Old law, the ordinances, however, have ceased. There is "nothing" in the new covenant that allows the Christian to use violence. We are under the new covenant; it was the Jews who were under the old covenant, not the Gentiles. Jesus is the lawgiver of the new covenant, not Moses. God predicted through Moses that Jesus would come and that He is the one who is to be listened to.

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.(Deu 18:15-19 KJV)

God said the prophet would speak His words. Peter quotes this passage and applies it to Christ.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, thatevery soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. (Act 3:20-24 KJV)

As Peter said, all the prophet have foretold of this coming time. He said you shall hear Him in all things whatsoever He says. Moses was the Lawgiver in the old covenant; Jesus is the law giver in the new covenant. There's a new covenant, a new law, and a new law giver. It's this new law giver that we are to listen to and He said, love your enemies, resist not evil, and turn the other cheek.

 

[Butch5]

For me, I was so sick of hearing so many different interpretations from different churches I was desperate for a plumb-line to straighten my path. Everyone said they used the bible for their source; yet they all had different views. I used to go to different churches to examine their teachings first hand. I've seen and heard some terrible things in churches. I first came across the Early Church Fathers by two ways. I became curious, first, about what churches, sects and cults that existed in the first century. I thought at first that there were only the Pharisees and Sadducees and the Herodians, as the scriptures mentioned. But after learning about the Dead Sea Scrolls I also found out about the Essenes. Then I found out who the Zealots and the Sacarii were. Then came the Adamites, the Basilidians, the Dorithiani, the Ebionites, the Ophites, the Tiberian Masoretes, and dozens more. Eventually, through more research, I learnt about how the christian gnostics started under the schools of Simon Magus. I stumbled upon the works of Clement, who I had never heard of until then; and that became a turning point.

Next, I was a avid reader of Christianity Today, and I saw an advert by the Electronic Bible Society asking for donations from charter members to sponsor the accumulation of 300 years of church writings onto a CD. I became a charter member, and about 2 years later they sent me a copy of the first 800 years of Christian writings. That was about 17 years ago. Over the years I have been chomping away at them, and learning things about my faith that I had no idea about. I have sinse then changed many of my opinions about what Christianity teaches. I am still learning, but I am at least no longer confused.

Because most false teachings originated back in these times, you are able to see when and how false ideas developed in a time-line. This still fascinates me. Equally, many people who believe they are teaching what the Apostles taught are actually teaching the opposite. This staggers me as well; yet but for the grace of God, there go I. I think the church will go into a true revival before the end, and it will be because more and more people will 'wake-up' after they become exposed to the original teachings. I am looking forward to that time. As you probably know, many of these writings were unavailable to the world until recently. "Knowledge has increased". This to me is a sign of great things to come very soon.

I can see many things alike with my experience. I too had that said to me, we teach only the Bible, yet they don't all teach the same thing. It is amazing to see people believing that they are teaching the word of God and as you say you can see where that teaching originates and it's not in the Scriptures. Another thing that surprised me was the doctrines of the early church that have been neglected and left behind. The doctrine of the Two Kingdoms comes to mind as does the Intermediate state. Their teaching on Baptism and the Communion has also been lost. I have gone back and reinstituted many of these doctrines back into my faith and hopefully will be able to pass them on to others.

 

[Tri Unity]

I can see many things alike with my experience. I too had that said to me, we teach only the Bible, yet they don't all teach the same thing. It is amazing to see people believing that they are teaching the word of God and as you say you can see where that teaching originates and it's not in the Scriptures. Another thing that surprised me was the doctrines of the early church that have been neglected and left behind. The doctrine of the Two Kingdoms comes to mind as does the Intermediate state. Their teaching on Baptism and the Communion has also been lost. I have gone back and reinstituted many of these doctrines back into my faith and hopefully will be able to pass them on to others.

I look forward to learning more from you. I have made copies of most ante-Nicene writings into PDF form if every you need copies. So many of the copies online are still taken from the original CD I was sent 17 years ago (mistakes and all); so I edited them properly removing all format errors.